I am looking primarily at the Schitt Yggdrasil or the Topping D90.
How does one feed those?
I am assuming any sort of CD transport would output the bit stream?
or… they get saved to file and played from some media player into the DACs.
Some example of what is commonly done would be great.
The system currently consists of:
TT —> Audio Research PH2
An old Nakamichi 5 disk CD player
TV
Audible Illusions line stage (New tunes on the way, but it still sound OK to me with the old tube in it)
Prima Luna (with GoldenLion and TS KT-120 one the way… and I might I’ll get the VTL mono blocks 100w/ch serviced)
Vandy 2C and Vandy sub
I also have a Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable, on the way… So that maybe does some of this for me as well?
But to be totally honest, the digital side is a bit of mystery to me. I have always thought we plug in a CD player and the signal comes out. (Maybe with some nuance in DACs, clock jitter, and filtering to separate the higher end from the lower end products.)
I had a top of the line Nakamichi CD player. I put it into my system last year for about 30 seconds, unplugged it, took it upstairs and threw it in the trash. Literally. I payed thousands for it. Bit streams in the digital end are as important as turntable /cartridge. The DAC roughly analogous to the Phonostage.
The Schiit Yggi is an excellent budget DAC. Don’t even consider something of lessor quality for your budget. Look to Aurender to find a good Streamer. You want to put as much money as you can into both.
Excellent advice: "
Find a local audiophile or dealer who has achieved "something" with digital and learn from them."
Great quote: "We are influenced by our past."
Trash the Nak. I have auditioned the Nak Music Bank, years ago. Among worst sounding CDP`s I have ever heard. By comparison, a Rotel RCD 970, and a NAD 515, smoked it.
What is the budget? There is a 2K price differential between the Topping and and Yggdrasil. … If otoh, the system can detect subtle differences between components, get back to us with a budget
Well I picked those two as what I am looking at.
The 10k$ Merging+NADAC is beyond what I would be comfortable budgeting
And I would rather not spend anything if it is a flaw endeavour… so if it requires 20k$ to get something as good as vinyl, I would skip it, and just go buy some vinyl, and some bottles of Cab/Pinot/etc/…
One huge question for you, is how tied in are you to your silver discs? Many of us have reported improved SQ playing ripped files from a NAS that sends the files to your dac through a network player/streamer. This is a whole convo in itself, but I would suggest considering using any computer drive to rip discs to a NAS.
Bingo. I need them in a car, and I like having them rather than a download.
If all the transports are flawed, then maybe I should just chuck a car audio CD player into the system to play physical CD, and go NAS for the good stuff? The car CD player I have is supposedly pretty good for the CD transport and DAC end.
If your new "Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable" means it's a Roon Ready endpoint device, then it can be your network streamer/player. Just connect it via ethernet cable to your network. Run Roon Core(the main Roon software) on 1) An Intel NUC if you're into some DIY-ish assembly 2) Small Green Computer/Sonore Sonic Orbiter 3) Roon Nucleus or 4) Mac or PC.
I am already running a NUC for the NetFlix streamer, and another for Linux so I am familiar with them. (& thanks for the links - I’ll give them a whirl)
I guess I come out of the NUC on one of the HMDI ports? And into the HT-AVR/Pre?
Disregarding for the moment the issue of transport and cable, there's quite a price differential between the two DACs you mention in the original post. I'd recommend you take a hard look at the Gustard X26 Pro.
Just to add to what others have said, streamers/digital sources all sound different. I am on my third streamer, the other two are okay, this one is better, all through the same DAC. I will keep looking. I have one of those Nakamichi 5 CD changers and put it in my main rig once. It has no digital out, so you get the digital source and DAC in one. Almost unlistenable compared to streamed versions of of the same ripped CD's through a streamer. Anything you do will be an upgrade there. I have gone completely digital with all my CD's ripped on a NAS, no plans to go back to a CD player, however I understand why some folks like/want them. But understand, even if you are using an external DAC, the digital stream coming out of the CD player can affect the sound like any streamer can. Everything matters if you have the ears to hear it.
The Ygg is a good choice, I have a Gumby and am very happy with it.
The only explanation I can offer that will be from a subjective viewpoint, is that when experiencing certain cable types within the System there were presentations that were immediately recognized as being able to be a detractor and not an attractor. From recollection the most short lived cable used in a trial was a Silver Wired Cable. In contrast a Silver Wired Din > RCA Phono Cable has been in use for more than Three Years, and has only very recently been changed, this cable has been compared to approx' Six cables over this period, that have been made up of varying purchase values. The retained Silver Wire Cable proved to be a satisfactory cable throughout the usage period. Its replacement is a PC Triple C Wire Cable.
Everything affect digital. Home power is a HUGE issue. You can't make a blanket statement about jitter or clocks not mattering. They do in most cases, but not all as long as the DAC/streamer/renderer is designed properly to begin with. That's going to be costly as I am finding out in my own search for a new DAC that I'm going through now.
Budget is the most important thing. There is some good digital at all price points. The thing is that you have to figure out what compromises you can handle adn what's most important to you.
As for Steve Nuggent and his DAC's and Synchro-mesh etc... he makes GREAT products. Steve is also a GREAT person. I owned his DAC and loved it and I have a Synchro-Mesh that I no longer need, but when I used it, it helped everything. Holmz, you know how to get in touch with me. Please reach out if you would like to and we can 'talk'. Digital comes down to what flavor you like (for the most part). that goes for all price ranges based on what I've beee auditioning.
Typical if you can't measure it differences can't exist arguments. And so, recently placed audiophile network switch between router and NAS, server. Sound quality decreased, router with lps feeding NAS and server superior. Rest of network chain post server optimized. Amir over at ASR recently measured audiophile network switches, virtually no measured performance difference. The assumption then is audiophile switches should sound the exact same as generic switch or no switch. I'm not here to argue my particular audiophile switch or any audiophile switch will improve sound quality in my system. My results just the opposite, and my results are replicated by some other reviewers of various audiophile switches. I also see other reviewers agnostic and enthusiastic in regard to these switches.
So, I have no skin in the game at this point, highly skeptical. And yet, I heard a difference in sound quality. Would measurements predict this? As for placebo or confirmation bias, I certainly wanted this switch to be effective, I spent a fair amount of money, I'd heard the theoretical arguments as to their effectiveness, and yet I heard what I heard. Can the measurement brigade answer for this? Am I delusional in hearing a decrease in sound quality with switch, or am I delusional in hearing better sound quality with router feed?
Some of the measurement brigade may believe I or all of us cannot listen devoid of some measure of delusion, don't trust your senses which only betray, listen to the measurements. Expecting delivery of my highly specialized listening robot any day now, he/she will report sound quality evaluation that I can regard as objective truth.
There is a lot of misinformation here the quality of the data stream really matters and can totally affect the sound quality of the dac all dacs are sensitive to jitter recllocking can help but digital noise can not be reclocked out.
This is one of the reasons pcs make poor tramsports
Listen to a dedicated server from auralac,aurrender innous or 432evo and you will hear a dramatic improvement in your digital playback.
We have tested this for he last 20 years with many top dacs from naim, Nad,t+a,bricasti,amr, remiyo, m2tech,meitner, Emm labs and many others
To date we have tested most of the leading streamers and servers
Including Cambridge, auralic,naim, lumin,aurender,Sotm, laufer, innous 432evo, baetis, and others
In digital everything matters
When it is right a high end digital rig can even rival a top end vinyl setup
DAVE AND TROY audio intellect Nj US Importer 432evo music servers
@jasonbourne52 This forum is generally assumed to be for those who want to intelligently discuss making their audio systems better. Certainly the OP is of that mindset. The information you shared just isn’t remotely true in any modestly high performing system.
Of course, everything is budget and system dependent. However, I could swap digital cables for you in my system (and you could even pick which cables) and you would very clearly and immediately understand that they sound different - even in a blind A/B test.
I could also swap out my good streamer for a Bluesound node and you would clearly and immediately hear that they sound different - even though my DAC is supposedly “immune” to jitter. I get that your experience may not support what I’ve stated above - in which case, you’re missing out. But, you’re also misleading others who are in search for something better. Unless you’re intentionally trolling - certainly a possibility - but then you’re a busy troll here.
To the OP - lots of other information on these forums (in this thread and others) to help you.
@holmz, If playing from your spinning disc is the requirement, you'll need a transport or DVD player with a digital output(USB, BNC, dig coax, etc). All DACs don't have the same complement of inputs, so be sure of compatibility.
SQ of DACs can vary quite widely from input-to-input. Some designers focus their design energy and invest in better parts for one or the other; it's worth considering user's experiences for the particular DAC you're getting. e.g. USB a decade ago was almost always noisier vs. coax & AES/EBU, but with much focus on improving USB due to it's popularity, newer designs have often overcome the concern.
While Monoprice and other bargain cables can do the job, the impact of cable choice varies widely from system-to-system and is more distinguishable on more resolving gear. Advice from posters with no system posted or other similar context and explanation as to what they've heard for comparison, should be discounted accordingly.
One huge question for you, is how tied in are you to your silver discs? Many of us have reported improved SQ playing ripped files from a NAS that sends the files to your dac through a network player/streamer. This is a whole convo in itself, but I would suggest considering using any computer drive to rip discs to a NAS.
If your new "Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable" means it's a Roon Ready endpoint device, then it can be your network streamer/player. Just connect it via ethernet cable to your network. Run Roon Core(the main Roon software) on 1) An Intel NUC if you're into some DIY-ish assembly 2) Small Green Computer/Sonore Sonic Orbiter 3) Roon Nucleus or 4) Mac or PC. Use any phone or tablet as a remote. Roon is a game changing experience. I'd suggest this for a good visual on using Roon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe61rmLKc1E and this if you're unclear on the 3 elements of Roon(Core/Endpoint/Remote) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgoXpMFxi5g Cheers, Spencer
What is the budget? There is a 2K price differential between the Topping and and Yggdrasil. Transports make a difference—they don’t all sound the same—but the DAC is more important. If the system as a whole is low on resolution, then the NAK CD tray, if it has a digital out, can suffice. Same with cables-one step above standard interconnects is probably all that is required before diminishing returns sets in. If otoh, the system can detect subtle differences between components, get back to us with a budget
@pindac How does it work? I would expect that the digital bit stream would have to be altered? or That there is some ground loop or some other thing happening that is not part of bit stream, but affecting the analogue portion of the DAC?
Over a few years I have trialed approx' 12 Digital COAX Cables all between 0.7mtr and 0.9mtr in length in Silver and Copper Signal Wiring and in a price range between £70 and £500. Some are Branded and some have been custom made but produced to be marketed. I have found Copper to be the most attractive in my set up, and chose a cheaper copper signal wire cable over a very expensive silver signal wire cable. It then evolved to a Copper Ribbon replacing a Copper Wire and more recently it evolved into a D.U.C.C 7N Pure Copper Wired Cable replacing the Copper Ribbon. There is one thing that is quite noticeable from my trials and recollections of these different cables, and that is the COAX Cable can make a CDT > DAC coupling a very attractive source when the Cable is discovered that produces an ideal interface and SQ for the end user.
You can use your Nakamichi's coax digital output into the DAC via a Monoprice digital cable.
There is only a red and a white RCA, and either it or the RCAs have tinny sound out of the RHS channel. Hence no coax digital out (it is a last millennium unit).
... Any CD/DVD player can serve as a transport. No need to spend big bucks! They all output the same data stream! Jitter is a non-issue with modern DACs. No need for a separate - and expensive - clock! Jitter in even cheap CD/DVD players is inaudible.
Even if you were wrong, then if the DAC buffers the samples, so we should end with jitter free output after the DAC?? (Right?)
Why Schiit or Topping? For less than $300 you can buy a Khadas 2 Tone Pro Dac that measures and sounds as good as any four-figure DAC! I own the earlier model, the KTB.
I dunno… If we trust specs, then they are demonstrably good…
I am familiar with your Nak 5 disc CD player. The multiple disk was a nice feature, but it was not near as good as their Tape Decks, but the name sold it. If you want to keep playing your CD's, I would suggest getting a CD transport and feed it into a good DAC, you mentioned two good ones, but everyone has their favorite. However, if you want to get off of CD's, then buy either a Bluesound Vault or an Aurrender and burn them onto the hard drive. If you were used to loading the Nak and playing CD after CD, you will love being able to do it from your phone, laptop or iPad. I was 'talked' into the Bluesound 2 years ago and was glad I did, ever since then I never listen to my actual CD's. Also, the Vault and some of the Aurrenders will get you into streaming in a fast, easy way. Many opinions out there, so perhaps others will suggest otherwise, but this is what I did and it made getting into everything digital easy and quick, and I am still very happy.
Why Schiit or Topping? For less than $300 you can buy a Khadas 2 Tone Pro Dac that measures and sounds as good as any four-figure DAC! I own the earlier model, the KTB.
You can use your Nakamichi's coax digital output into the DAC via a Monoprice digital cable. Any CD/DVD player can serve as a transport. No need to spend big bucks! They all output the same data stream! Jitter is a non-issue with modern DACs. No need for a separate - and expensive - clock! Jitter in even cheap CD/DVD players is inaudible. This was a problem solved decades ago! Don't believe the pundits saying that spending ever more on a transport gives "better" sound quality. Not true! Digital is NOT like Analog! The same thing applies to cables. Cheap here works just as well as expensive. A $10 Monoprice digital cable is indistinguishable from a three or four figure cable - regardless of what the "golden ears" crowd claims.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
