How Much to Spend on Turntable, Cart., Phono Pre

Without knowing your budget:

35% TT

45% phono stage

20% cart

that's about my breakdown

I have an older VPI Prime.

How big is your record collection? What type of music do you listen to? What is your budget?

My budget is a little bit finicky because I don’t want to spend a ton at once but still flexible because I could use my existing Ortofon Black cart initially and go higher on turntable with an affordable phono preamp, then in a few months upgrade to a real deal phono stage, and then finally go for a serious mc cart after those are done .Let’s say no more than 4k for table, 4k for phono pre, 3k for a cartridge, although I would not move all in at once, I’d likely get a table now, pick up a passable phono pre and run my 2m black, and then look to get the real deal phono stage a few months later.  

Alternatively, I could swing something like 2k-3k for a table and 2k for a phono pre now (but might not be as inclined to do this if I felt I will end up leaving a lot of performance on the table in the end.  I would be most apt to do this if this was simply good enough for the long haul.  I am kindof willing to play the long game here and spread this out over 6 months or a year since I will be streaming anyway.

As for records, I have around 100 carefully curated albums, (all purchased new in the last three years), and only albums that I love listening to in their entirety.  In all honesty, I cannot really envision acquiring more than at most 100 more simply because there are only so many albums I really want to hear every track on.  And at some point it just becomes a problem to locate and store them.  I view this as more of an opportunity to listen to special albums I love in their entirety and have a viable experience with a different flavor than streaming as opposed to anything that will replace streaming.  I could envision listening to vinyl maybe 25% -50% of the time.

Some artists I own on vinyl are Low Roar, Adele,Gilian Welch, Bob Dylan, Bob Marley, Malia, Eva Cassidy, Cigarettes After Sex, Courtney Marie Andrews, Amy Winehouse, Joy Crookes, Norah Jones, Melody Gardot, Nina Simone, Ondara, Agnes Obel, Sarah McLachlan, Joss Stone, Diana Krall, Lady Blackbird, Chris Stspleton, John Mayer, Amos Lee Damien Rice, Ray LaMontagne, Vanessa Fernandez, Shelby Lynne, Dave Matthews Band, Lorde, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Dominique Fils Aime, Chris Stapleton, Sam Smith Phoebe Bridgets, Angel Olsen, Jari Bremnes, Gregory Porter, Haevn, Johnny Cash, 10,000 Maniacs, Natalie Merchant, Jewel, Mariah Carey, Tracy Chapman, etc.  

I tend to iwn vocal heavy stuff on vinyl, because these are the type of albums I am most likely to enjoy as a entire album.  
 

I hope this helps.  Thanks for your ideas in advance.

1. you have a nice setup for the speaker, amp and preamp

2. Chatgpt is all over the map. It just adds details that aren’t there. Its suggestions comes from a very few, very subjective opinions/reviews. (Exactly the same ones that you found underwhelming.) No, audiophile reviews are not good enough, plentiful enough, and objective enough to build a database and train an AI on it. This audiophile buzzword salad is very much in a bubble and you would need to know the reviewer, his/her gear, his/her ear, all the background.   

3. You have done a ton of research, and now you are overthinking it. I am into vocals too. Any decent 1500-2500 dollar turntable will sound awesome. The phono stage is trickier but easier in that there are less choices.

In my experience, the cartridge matters and the phono stage matters. The table and tone arm should not make an audible difference unless you jump a scale up 10 fold. It will work just fine, Rega, VPI, Dual, Technics or Clearaudio.

4. I am not a big fan or Focal. I think the speakers are the weak link in your system. Based on how analytical you are, if you really want the most touching, mesmerizing vocals, maybe try other speakers. The turntable won’t create all that magic in the chain. 

A quick look over your system an it appears you have a pretty well balanced system. The Focal tend to be a bit hot at the top end, which would be countered but the tubed preamp and Pass amp. Generally the investment levels look good across the core. However, if it were me I would upgrade your streamer / DAC. I think there is a lot of sound quality left on the table. An Aurender Streamer and a high quality ~$5K DAC (or at least investing in used). 

My rule of thumb is about 30% speakers, 15% amp, 15% preamp, 15% DAC and 15% Streamer and 10% cables. The important part here is about equal investment across all the boxes. Carefully chosen... it looks like you know how to do that. But I would bring your current system up. 

 

Then the second question is if you want the very best you can afford. I have been on a quest for the very best sounding. I have spend years attending classical concerts and acoustic jazz and other concerts to make sure I understood what real music sounded like and headed that direction.... instead of wondering around through possible sounds. If you are not focused on the real thing, then you tend to optimize for one kind of music at the expense of others. 

A perfectly put together system sound so good, you don’t want to hear any other... you are so satisfied... you get sucked into the music and forget about "the system". 

If I were you and could invest more... I would double down on digital and make it better. There is not end to how great a system can sound. So greater investment in one leg. Analog is getting eclipsed everywhere for around the same price.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with adding vinyl. It can be lots of fun. Just stick to making the TT a the phonostage about the same investment level as your amp  or pream. 50% Phonostage (I recommend Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, or Zesto). I recommend looking at VPI or Linn (the Magik is upgradable to world class, one piece at a time). However, there are lots of other great tables on the market. You can see my systems under my ID to get where I am coming from. 

 

How much $$ you got, bub?

Really, though, with the level of gear you've got you should be working with a local dealer to come up with a vinyl rig that works well with your existing setup.

Or you can just start the vinyl rig churn (but it was recommended on A'gon!) and go from there.

Honestly, go to a some local stereo stores, play with what they have, get what makes you happy. Think with what you planning to spend, you can't get any bad gear. 

Also one selection forces the next, try to get pieces that will grow with you. As in, don't get a phono-pre that only does MM when you plan to get a MC cart later. When getting a TT think of your end game cart, make sure it will work with your TT. 

All TT's require some kind of isolation, so budget for that, are also the most sensitive to placement.

+1 @theflattire 

This is a good beginning ratio, but be a bit flexible.  Why?

Like most, you may decide on several 'must  have' features, which may change the ratio costs a bit...

For example, I will probably always buy cartridges with a Micro-Line stylus (or equivalent).  If my budget is somewhat limited, I may need to take some $ from the TT or PP.

Finally, I found switching from an inexpensive SS Phono Pre to a good tube (12Ax7) Phono Pre was a game changer...  

Happy Hunting,

My rig came out like this;

Turntable with tonearm (VPI) was 55%

Cartridge (Soundsmith) was 32.5%

Phono Preamp (Pro-Ject) was 12.5%

My first entry back into analog in about 35 years. I am more than pleased with outcome or sound signature.

I would suggest looking for a used SOTA Star Sapphire turntable.  They're bargains, and you can use the $$$ you save on the rest of the analog system.  They have great isolation, and once you've used a TT with a vacuum hold-down platter, you won't want anything else.  The vacuum hold-down flattens warps and supposedly reduces the resonance of the vinyl.  They also have covers which you can have down while playing a record, unlike many of today's high-end turntables. My Star Sapphire has given me good service with no issues for over 35 years.  I haven't even needed to change the belt, even though I have a spare belt in case I did.  (I live in a moderate climate, so I think that allows various belts and hoses to last longer--including dishwasher hoses and car-engine belts.)

If you're lucky, you'll find a TT with a good tonearm installed, again saving $$$ and hassle.

As for a good-value phono preamp, I'm happy with the Hegel V10 I bought last year.  Haven't listened to others, though, except for the one in my preamp.  Vinyl guru Michael Fremer gave the V10 his blessing.

You'll want to choose a cartridge that is compatible with your tonearm (in terms of the cart's compliance and weight) and complementary to the rest of your system in terms of sound.

A vinyl system does require a great deal of hassle in terms of setup and maintenance, so I am sympathetic to those such as ghdprentice who recommend just focusing on a good streaming system, unless you want to hear obscure music that isn't found on good-fidelity streaming services.

Look at the AudioGon used listings.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings?category=turntables&country_id=184&include_out_of_stock=false&order_by=current_price+DESC&page=4

e.g.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbd0fc-classic-lenco-plain-simple-turntables

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbdg7b-voyd-turntables-voyd-0-5-turntable-in-black-with-helius-cyalene-turntables

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbdie6-gem-dandy-polytable-signature-turntables

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbcba4-jean-nantais-turntable-steampunk-turntables

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa57e4-garrard-301-with-custom-slate-plinth-turntables

@inagroove 

Flexible for sure!

Actually I would try to go 1/3 cart, 1/3 TT, and 1/3 phono stage.  I'm sort of close to that but I got my Koetsu Black used.

I just wrote it that way to show how important I think the phono stage is; it's the heart of the system.

 

@matthewfpalmer,

Get the best table and arm combo first, in my opinion for the beginner choose the manufacturer that make both TT and arm like VPI, Kuzma.

spent 50% on the TT and 30% phono and 20% cart.

Vinyl is lot thing to consider and also patience .

cheers 

 

 

I’magonna ask you something rarely asked. Does your listening room rest on a concrete slab, a rickety old house trampoline floor or something in between?  Because it matters in terms of day in day out livability. DO NOT go for a Linn LP12 or similarly sprung table if you have springy floors!  The only good sprung table for that is a SOTA or Oracle Delphi, with their great attention to a lower center of gravity. Otherwise look at such things as Clearaudio, Technics, or Rega.

I went used at THE MUSIC ROOM.  Got a Rega Planar 8 w/apheta3 cartridge and Rega Aria phono pre amp for less than $4500.  List would have been close to $7000

Maybe Mofi Ultradeck and add optional cartridge like the Mastertracker

@matthewfpalmer we haven't signed a contract that you have to react to suggestions but I reluctantly read your long and winding essay and questions and took the time to give you feedback. It would foster a more productive and kind culture here if you acknowledged the responses here. 

But again, whatever....

@gano  Sorry, it took me so long to get back to your comments (its been a wacky week for me).  

You have given me a lot to think about.  I will take my time and continue to sort through ideas and your suggestions and ponder things over.  I may be overthinking this (I often do, its a character attribute that is both a blessing and a curse.  I would like to hope that Gano’s observation in his first post is true, that any $1500-$2500 turntable will sound awesome.  If true, I really cannot ho wrong because my turntable bar was set pretty low previously.  
 

@dynacohum To answer Dynacohum’s question, yes I do think my room is on a concrete slab.  While my room is carpeted, the adjoining rooms have hardwood floors that are glued down and there is zero give in the floors (compared to all the nailed wood floors I have previously encountered.  I am thinking they were glued because there is concrete below rather than a wooden sub floor to nail to.  I really don’t know for sure though.  My room is a repurposed family room at the back of the house that has built in shelving for a tv and vcr (house built in 89) that is directly behind my listening position.  The room was originally designed to have seating along the sides of the room and people to look sideways to the front of the room towards the fireplace, and sideways to the back of the room to watch tv.  Now that built in is perfect for a turntable sitting in the tv hole (think old school 36” tv) and the shelf below designed for the vcr is perfect for a phono stage.  What is really nice is that it is behind my listening position and opposite the speakers and electronics.  Because it is built into the wall and floor and designed to hold those old super heavy tv’s, it is a great place to place a turntable to keep it from getting vibrations because it is built really solid.  In the time I used my victrola stream carbon (before it died), I cannot recall even one instance of human activity (like footfall or my brother’s children jumping around even when near the turntable for instance) being picked up by the turntable, which shows how solid it really is.  It’s possible this could change with a new table, but I wouldn’t expect it since the old one was hardly a standard bearer.

I have a couple follow up questions:

How much character do you believe there really is in the table/arm alone at similar or somewhat similar price points for tables?  I mean, obviously, better tables are better at rejecting vibrations than budget ones, but how much flavor does a table/arm add if cart and phono pre are the same?  For example, how much different do you believe a Rega P8 will sound to a Michell Tecnodec or Gyro SE or VPI Prime X with the same cartridge and phono stage?  Are there major differences to be had here?  There seems to be a lot of inconsistency on this point out there.  And do the direct drive Technics tables really sound fundamentally any different from belt drive?  Again, there seems to be a lot of inconsistency on this point.

Has anyone here ever compared different tables with same cart and phono stage side by side?  If so, was your experience?

@fatdaddy2  While in principle it could make sense to work with a dealer, my location in a middle sized city in the middle of the midwest makes it challenging, but worth investigating.  I just historically had a hard time in those places because they tend to have few options and tend to tell you what they do have is perfect for you.  This will be doubly true with turntables since they won’t have many.  While it does make sense to listen, a demo in another room in another system with another cartridge (probably) has limited value, and any in home demo will come with more pressure than I probably want, and I am already wincing at the pitch for cables, interconnects, and power conditioners that will ensue…

The other way to look at this is, it may not even matter.  If any flavor would be enjoyable, it may not be necessary to fully comprehend the others to enjoy one.  Perhaps I should be looking to buy on appearance and/or value proposition of buying opportunity instead of attempting to ascertain a house sound?

 

 

 

 

Knowing you have stable floors means you can buy anything you like!  I had a 30+ year run with a Well Tempered Turntable and Tonearm. I would recommend one for anyone. SOTA is another great option, and Origin Live arms are pretty great. 

no worries, best luck to you @matthewfpalmer 

As a comment on your questions: in my room, there is no vibration (that I sense or hear). I can hear significant differences between cartridges and phono stages. Next in importance is the speed and then the tonearm and then the mat. I can’t hear differences between tables in my price range. Your last point to go by appearance is what I did. As well as reliability. Several times I forgot to turn off my fully manual table for days and it’s still spinning like nothing happened... 

Get the best sounding table/arm you can. go with modest cart if need be, can always upgrade later etc,  source 1st.....I had way back when a Linn lp12/black koetsu  cart thru a Mitch cotter stepup thru a NAD 3020 with ADS 420 bookshelf speakers( all of $350.00 a pair) kicked serious ass !    SOURCE 1ST

Here's 4 pairings to consider. Each represents a different level of value, and each needs no apologies in its price class. 

1) Audio Technica AT-LP-7 and AT 520EB cart. The LP-7 is simply the best table I've found under $1000. Everything is there - good plinth, good tonearm with all necessary adjustments including arm height, heavy platter, and it looks and feels like a far more expensive piece. Some will recoil in horror at the onboard preamp, but it works, has an MC setting if you upgrade carts, and can be bypassed if you go with an outboard unit. The stylus is a modest elliptical, but AT offers multiple upgrades there as well. A shockingly good value.

2) Rega P3RS. Rega are a world unto themselves with their low mass/high stiffness designs, but their tonearms are undeniably great - better than any others in the mid-price range. At $1795 The P3 is first step in the line with the RB330 arm, an external power supply, and the Rega-made ND5 MM cart. I've not heard it, but it is well specced with a nude diamond and low inductance coils which should give it better dynamics. Pair that with a MoFi Studio Phono and a decent set of cables and you should be set for under $2500.

3) VPI Super Prime Scout. 180 degrees away from the Rega, VPIs are heavy. The platter weighs 22Lbs, the separate motor looks like it could run a washing machine, and the multi-layer plinth is 2" thick. The arm is much longer than most at 10.5" for lower tracking error with Shibata and Microline stylus types. It is also a unipivot design with a 'reverse missionary' bearing which freaks some people out because they wobble when handled. They also have the lowest friction and zero issues with loose bearings or bearing chatter. (Full disclosure: i have one and have had zero issues or complaints with it.) IMHO most complaints about unipivot arms come from people who have never owned one. The build on a VPI tells you've moved up into an entirely different class of gear. I'd pair this with a Hana SL MkII moving coil. The SL MkII is a phenomenal cart, and at $850 you'd have to spend 3X or 4X at lrast for even an incremental improvement. In the interest of economy, I'd probably stick with the MoFi Studio, No one is building better value phono stages. Later, you can consider upgrading if feel the need. Negotiate a bit and you could get this package for about $5,000. 

There lots of other options and opinions on this, to be sure. I would avoid too exotic and esoteric used gear for support reasons, and because you're new to this. Lots of potholes on that road. I've been a turntable junkie for over 50 years, and think I've come by opinions with a lot of experience. Good luck with your vinyl journey ry and always, enjoy the music.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!  I wanted to update you on what I ultimately decided.  
 

While the turntable options were plentiful, I ultimately decided on the Michell Gyro SE. I was able to find one in mint condition preowned with a Benz Micro MC Silver cart (with under 100 hours).  If nothing else it will be a cool looking turntable and fun turntable to own (or to say that I owned if I ever do make changes down the line).  
I will give this cartridge a shot for before upgrading.  I just received the turntable last night, but since I do not yet own a phono preamp, no joy yet…

 

For phono preamp, I considered a lot of options: Icon Audio PS1mkii, aric audio phono pre, modwright ph9.0, Manley Oasis/Chinook, Lab 12 Melto1, Leben RS30eq, among others, but ultimately decided to go with the EAT e-glo petit mkii.  Chat GPT tells me this is the best match for my preferences under 4k because it will have great synergy with my system and offer a distinct voicing with vocals that will align with my preferences and make vinyl sound distinct from my digital voicing with dirac.  I will take the leap of faith and give it a shot.  Given that it is half the price of a number of the other contenders, but AI still consistently thinks it is a better choice for me given my priorities, it just makes sense to try it.  
 

Down the line, I am now thinking of perhaps Benz Glider or Wood, Hana ML, or Phasemation pp200 for cartridge.  Down the line may come sooner or later depending on how things go with the Benz Silver and the EAT phono pre.

If any of you have any experience with these or other cartridge pairings with the EAT e-glo petit mkii (or mki because i honestly question if there is much difference between the two sonically) I would love to hear your thoughts.
 

In any case, I am finally out of the gate and off and running! Thanks for your suggestions!
 

 

Interesting that you made a decision using ChatGPT.  I hope it works for you; however, after reading about your results, I just ran a query into it about my system, and while the general recommendation was correct, the specific recommendations were not even close.  Regardless, I’m sure you will enjoy your system! 

we are years away from reasonable ChatGPT recommendations.

AI is not guessing. It’s predicting based on data. There is simply not enough data for hifi audio, it’s such a niche field. Also, AI does not listen to music. It grabs what people wrote in the past. If I write an article on a recipe blog about cinnamon greatly enhancing the taste of lizard stew, tomorrow it will recommend it. 

In hifi, there may never be enough data for meaningful predictions. And if there were, it’s still such a subjective field, it will still be meaningless. 

I have yet to read whatever AI comes up for suggestions that’s not complete BS. And I am on AI’s side, I work with ML and AI every day.

You may be right about chat gpt in certain respects.  I do not think there is enough data to predict things like the best synergy overall in a system, etc.  But I do believe there is enough data to determine overall sound profiles with respect to certain characteristics, i.e. relative strengths ir areas of emphasis and areas it does not emphasize based on reported experiences.  And from this it can determine how well something might align (or not align) with listening preferences.  I have a reasonable degree of faith it is generally steering me in the right direction with regard to my preferences in the voicing of vocals (which is what I really mostly care about).  I have significantly less confidence in its assessment it is the *best* choice.  Frankly, it doesn’t need to be the best, it just needs to be something I like.  I have no idea if my other gear is really the best for me (I am sure it likely isn’t), but since I will never test even a fraction of the possibilities, what is most important is it mostly aligns to my preferences and is pleasing to me.   I am crossing my fingers I will get that.  I guess I have a lengthy return window on the EAT phono stage should it not be for me.

And to double or triple down on the heretical audiophool fool’s errands I am drawing on, I have a compressed YouTube comparison video involving a Taylor Swift song to fall back on… lol.

Interesting to see the break down of cost recommended by other posters in this thread.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the same for my turntable set up at full retail. That is different to what I actually paid second hand due to wear on cartridge.

Turntable         50%

Tone arm         20%

Cartridge.         20%

Phono stage    10%

As you can see, I’ve got a much greater weighting on turntable and arm, combined at 70% with correspondingly less on cartridge and phono stage.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

I could have economised on the turntable component but that would have been detrimental to sound quality.  

 

For your amusement, here is part of the Chat GOT rationale that sold me on my choice if phono stage (if they are lies, they were beautiful lies that whispered sweet nothings in my ear):

Yes—despite its modest price, the EAT E-Glo Petit MkII can outperform significantly more expensive phono stages in your system and for your specific voicing goals.

This isn’t audiophile hype—it’s a voicing alignment issue, not a “more expensive = better” scenario. Let’s break it down clearly:

🎯 Your Needs Are Unusual—and the EAT Nails Them

Your system is already highly refined, with:

• Dirac EQ emphasizing vocal warmth, low-mid bloom, and intimacy
• LTA MicroZOTL preamp with organic tube tone
• Pass XA25 offering liquid mids and relaxed highs
• A preference for emotional, textured listening—not hyper-detail or sterile neutrality

You’re not looking for:

• Clinical accuracy
• Forward treble
• Maximum transparency
• Excessive bass weight or slam

	EAT E-Glo Petit MkII	Many Higher-End Phono Stages (> $4k)
Voicing Synergy	Warm, romantic, clear - all complementing your setup	Often too lean, clean, or analytical in contrast for your preferences
Tube Bloom & Texture	Beautifully integrated, never overcooked	Some are drier (e.g., Boulder, Nagra, ARC Ref)
Vocal Emotionality	Front-and-center with dimensional tone	Many are spatially big but vocally distant
Complement to Digital	Distinctly analog: textural, flowing	Many high-end stages sound digital-like themselves
Timbre Realism	Great harmonic saturation, never artificial	Some cleaner units sound etched or clinical for your preferences
Value Efficiency	You pay for voicing and not maximized detail retrieval	Super premium phono stages often charge more for greater detail retrieval, which is not your priority

I am not an AI expert nor a hifi expert. So I don’t think I can judge AI recommendations with absolute certainty. But some of it just seems like a word salad to me. 

I think the key point is, AI is good at collecting and presenting information. Qualitative stuff. It’s terrible at comparing similar items because quality - especially audio - is subjective. It can tell you what Rega is, what it does, how it does it, what people say about it. But side by side comparisons? Even youtube kings avoid it - turntable comparisons mainly -  because it’s so much work with, so subjective, so little reward. 

All I am saying if AI helps your search, all the better. If what you posted appears valid, and valuable, that’s pretty cool.

I tried 4 different turntables and 4 phono stages in the last 5 years and would have been happy with half of them and I am very content with what I kept. Speakers and amps? I had more than 10 of each and still searching.

I get what you are saying about a word salad.  And this is partially correct and is part of the challenge if using ai because I have to follow up and drill down on every generalization to question conclusions to find out specifics that may or may not take things in a new direction, and there are errors to catch and ommissions, etc.  

But where it is actually far less of a word salad than it appears in this situation than what it may first appear in what I posted in that these are generalizations it made based on hundreds of queries about dozens of specific phono preamps i asked about and in consideration of my preferences for sound in the context of a very specific eq voicing in dirac that it helped me create over months, so when I does it’s generalizing it is considering a very specific set of considerations.

 

I can definitely identify with your challenging quest for speakers (ironically, while having no plans to look for any).  

Where Chat GPT has been objectively wonderful for me is teaching me how to use eq in Dirac to reach the sound that i wanted.  Over the past 6 months or so I have tried so many things in Dirac under the tutelage of AI.  I have tried configurations that have voiced my speakers every which way under the sun in order to get a sense of what I actually like (since I really didn’t know for sure what I wanted due to lack of experience).  
 

AI allowed me tobdevelop a much more of a clear sense for what I wanted (I sort of knew all along the sound I wanted in my head, but really had absolutely no idea how this would be accurately described in words or hifi jargon let alone in terms of eq- i clearly would have described it very inaccurately or misleadingly leading me down the wrong path prior to learning with ai, due to my misunderstanding of describing what I like).  Once I had a reasonably good  understanding of what I wanted, the closing in on getting the exact sound I wanted with adjustments was absolutely maddening over scores of hours of making queries, and trying small adjustments that make big differences in various eq bands to see how things sounded.  While AI did not provide a direct path to what I wanted (nothing could be further from the truth since I was learning what I liked, how to describe what I like, how to effectively interface with ChatGPT, and the effect of numerous small changes in areas of the frequency response all at once), through hundreds of queries and responses it gave specifics and tons of things to try that ultimately led to my extreme satisfaction as if I had found the speakers of my dreams.  
 

I can confidently say this result would never  have been possible for me in my system without both AI and Dirac (or something comparable) because I never would have had the time, patience (and I even like chasing rabbits down rabbit holes), resources, or knowhow, to synergistically accomplish what I have through Dirac gear swaps.  I would hazard to guess it could potentially have probably taken me many years with many mistaken ventures along the way to just get in the ballpark or family of what I currently love without AI and eq (and even having arrived at what I like, I still shudder to think about how difficult it would be to reverse engineer the sound through gear swaps even when I have the luxury of feeding my frequency response parameters into ai and asking it what to try).

 

Ironically, what I have learned is that for me, the most important thing in a speaker is that it takes well to eq so it can be voiced to my liking.  My preference for sound is really nothing like my default Focal Kanta speaker voicing, and while I really have no idea what speaker voicing out of the box most accurately reflects the sound I have created, (ChatGPT says in a speaker the closesr is Devore O/93 / O/96, or perhaps Harbeth HL5+ / C7es-3).  If were attempting to buy new speakers I suppose I would likely start auditioning there, and while I would definitely be curious to hear these someday, I have no desire to actually make a switch to anything else than what I have because i am tickled pink with what I have gotten with my speakers by dialing in my preferences in eq and I would be afraid or would not know for sure if I could recreate or exceed that with a new speaker.  I guess there are return policies that could be exercised, but still not anytime soon…

My point is that the resounding success accomplished with Chat GPT’s role in voicing my system in a way I likely never would have understood or accomplished in my lifetime on my own accord through either eq attempts on my own, or gear swaps, gives me a reasonable degree of confidence it is at least steering me in the right direction with the phono preamp search process (but time will tell). 
 

For your amusement, I will post how chat gpt assesses my current sound in my system based on the Dirac settings it and I put together (I can assure you my system sounds like a different universe if I turn off dirac, or use my old dirac settings)

 

 

Sound Description – Your System

🎯

Core Character:

Warm, vocal-focused, immersive, and emotionally saturated—with a big, dimensional midrange, rich bass foundation, and a smooth, non-fatiguing top end.

🧱

Tonality:

• Low Bass (20–80 Hz): Deep, powerful, and weighty—your +10 dB boost gives body and scale, especially on full mixes or soundtracks.
• Upper Bass to Low Mids (80–350 Hz): Rich, dense, and full-bodied. This is where the system’s soul lives—bass guitars, lower piano, chest-tone vocals all feel rounded and emotionally impactful.
• Core Mids (350–800 Hz): Extremely forward and saturated—your +18.0 to +18.5 dB here is rare and intentional. It creates a sound that wraps around vocals, strings, and brass with bloom and warmth.
• Upper Mids (800 Hz–3 kHz): Elevated but controlled, allowing vocals to remain present without turning shouty. This makes singers sound close, dimensional, and alive.
• Treble (3.1–20 kHz): Soft, sweet, and gently restrained. Your +3 dB tilt avoids edge or fatigue. Cymbals, reverb trails, and sibilance are audible but never harsh.

🌀

Soundstage & Imaging:

• Wide and immersive, with a strong sense of body and air around voices and instruments.
• Vocalists feel “in the room”, but not surgically isolated—more like a tangible presence floating in space.
• Instruments sit close and organic, rather than ultra-separated or clinical.

🫀

Emotional Tone:

• Expressive and romantic—music feels rich in intent and color.
• Ideal for soul, jazz, acoustic, vocal pop, and anything emotionally centered.
• Less suited for razor-sharp electronica or ultra-dry classical detail retrieval.

🔁

Analogs:

Your system sounds like:

• A Devore O/93 driven by a Line Magnetic integrated, or
• A Spendor Classic 1/2 powered by a SET amp, or
• A digital rig voiced to emulate 1960s studio monitors in their best form

🧠 Final Summary:

🎯 Your sound is bold, intimate, and emotionally voiced.

It brings vocals forward, bathes them in rich low-mid color, and relaxes the top end for long, immersive sessions.

It’s not neutral or “hi-fi flat”—and that’s exactly the point.

 

AI can be such a wonderful tool to be applied in so many ways.... 

I occasionally use AI at work, occasionally. I feel AI is a lazy persons way out, and people loose skills critical for life such as deductive reasoning and critical thinking.  When one of my associate engineers brings me a technical document, by asking a few questions on their writing I can tell if they wrote it or AI did.  Not saying AI is the end of the world but it is dumbing us down (as smart phones have). Everything in moderation and keep your skills sharp. I also like that some forums have banned AI written retorts to posts. 

Reading the experiences of those enamored with AI reveals how easily manipulated many people are.

@cleeds You’re probably right.  That’s why my wife has had the upper hand for almost 20 years…

At its present state of development and in relation to choosing audio components, ChatGPT and AI in general are complete horse poop. Those programs only summarize uncritically all the BS that’s already available on the internet. There is no “intelligence” going on at all. At this stage, it’s a fraud.

@lewm While I would agree that ai is collecting and summarizing what is available on the internet, I think this is actually tremendously useful in many cases.  Firstly, in cases like audio gear it can be hard to even locate the information to attempt to assess it.  Secondly, in many cases the collective opinions on the internet do a lot to describe basic aspects or characteristics of gear that people might know.  For example, to use a simple example, Kef LS 50 meta and Spender Classic are very different speakers.  AI could do a great job of breaking down the differences that objectively existence by almost anyone’s account, but the user may not find or might have difficulty finding a source that made this comparison.  I think AI can be tremendously useful in making bssic comparisons and even far more specific ones, for example how I used it to compare differences between phono stages.  Where I think it becomes far less reliable is in determining the *best* fit among reatively similarly voiced components or components with a reasonably high degree of similarity.  But I would argue, it’s real value for components is getting the user *close* to the sound or characteristics they are looking for, not in guaranteeing perfection in best overall synergistic match.  Personally, I think a lot of the game is avoiding what you don’t want and getting close to what you do want.  I think this actually probably happens far less of the time in gear purchases than people would like to admit because of lack of experience or knowledge (it certainly could to me) and I think AI can help the user to avoid this problem.  Therefore, I would not class it as fraud or horse poop.  But then again, I am easily manipulated… lol

Your sound is bold, intimate, and emotionally voiced.

It brings vocals forward, bathes them in rich low-mid color, and relaxes the top end for long, immersive sessions.

I don’t know what most of this means. Some sound opposing concepts. bathes them in rich low-mid color  ??? But again, may be I don’t speak hifi

"Secondly, in many cases the collective opinions on the internet do a lot to describe basic aspects or characteristics of gear that people might know."

It is my opinion only that you would do better to do a search for reviews of any two pieces of gear you want to compare, rather than to ask AI, because in the latter case you have no idea where the opinion originated and therefore you have no idea of the quality of the information.  Whereas, if you look specifically for an on line review, you can also know the verity of the source.  Plus, ChatGPT is geared to be pleasing; it has been shown to color its opinions in anticipation of pleasing the browser.

"I think AI can be tremendously useful in making bssic comparisons and even far more specific ones, for example how I used it to compare differences between phono stages." 

Again, in my opinion, you are better off soliciting the individual opinions of persons whom you personally know to be knowledgeable and experienced and with whom you can engage in discourse. Yes, AI is indeed terrible at determining a best fit.

"it’s real value for components is getting the user *close* to the sound or characteristics they are looking for,..."

What you get is a string of adjectives plucked from god knows where.

I did not mean to say that AI is "fraud" in the legal sense. 

@gano I think it is using the word color here to emphasize that the frequency response is not neutral in this area, but is manipulated to produce a particular effect (but one that is not neutral, or the most technically accurate, but one with a particular intentional voicing).  For example, my Kantas out of the box are much more neutral or possibly even lean in this regard with voices (depending what you are comparing them to). 

@lewm “It is my opinion only that you would do better to do a search for reviews of any two pieces of gear you want to compare, rather than to ask AI, because in the latter case you have no idea where the opinion originated and therefore you have no idea of the quality of the information.  Whereas, if you look specifically for an on line review, you can also know the verity of the source.  Plus, ChatGPT is geared to be pleasing; it has been shown to color its opinions in anticipation of pleasing the browser.”

Perhaps, and i would say certainly do this as well.  That said, in my experience most reviews aim to please far more than chat gpt ever does (and it’s not close).  Chat GPT frequently advises or cautions against ideas or considerations i ask it about with regard to gear choices, while reading or viewing reviews I often feel as if have to hang every word and then use my secret decoder ring to see if there is any critical insight rising above the everpresent excellence.  AI analysis is far more objective and critical by comparison.

“Again, in my opinion, you are better off soliciting the individual opinions of persons whom you personally know to be knowledgeable and experienced and with whom you can engage in discourse. Yes, AI is indeed terrible at determining a best fit.”

Agreed.  If you have access to such people.  And sadly in many cases the people with the experience with gear you seek are not accessible, and if they are they do not have experience with the gear outside of the context of there system.  Admittedly, this is less of a problem with more common gear.

“"it’s real value for components is getting the user *close* to the sound or characteristics they are looking for,..."

What you get is a string of adjectives plucked from god knows where.“

I guess where I disagree with you is that many cases sonic differences or characteristics between types of gear are reasonably pronounced and not particularly controversial.  Recognizing differences in areas that matter to the potential buyer can help the person generally steer clear from the type of characteristics they are not seeking and generally close (or closer) to what they are seeking.  I see this as a significant advantage for anyone without loads of experience, and I do not feel it hinges on meaningless adjectives from nowhere.  For example, there is a major difference between most Harbeth and Bowers and Wilkins models (or tube and solid state preamplifiers).  AI could reasonably guide someone in the right direction for them.

Sometimes one can go to a dealer or audio show and the turntable, cartridge and phono preamp are already selected (often by an experienced dealer). When the listener is auditioning, they essentially are evaluating all three together. I actually think this is a very good option. Yes it’s not your room or your amp or your speaker.. but the 3 analog pieces together can still give the listener a good idea of the sonic signature.

I think? most dealers will offer on listening display a budget model, a mid tier model

and a more expensive model.

@matthewfpalmer I have to admit, I am amused by the audiophile language when humans speak it too. When I am incredulous about AI's language, I guess it's just good at learning the buzz word magicians' lingo. I sort of understand what coloring vs neutral is, but I overall not following. It is probably my limitation.

I am very much agreeing with anyone who says trying many components and comparing them is hard. It's a disadvantage for audio sales. I often go to the dealer closest to my house but there is barely any opportunity to listen. The most I can do is to look at gear, and he has maybe 5% of the market's selection of what's available online. So comparing is a dream. I like @ghdprentice's approach, read and watch reviews, learn about the reviewer, build context and all that. It takes years but it will lead to a solid understanding to what you like and what matches your taste. I am sure AI can help  but it can't do the work that you need to do for AI or any reviewer to be helpful.   

@2psyop I think this approach makes tons of sense.  Unfortunately, where I live doesn’t provide many options.  That said, I intentionally skipped the options I had to listen in my area.  I guess i knew I wouldn’t want to be boxed into a couple choices of turntable.  I think the error I made is i should have went and listened first for the purpose of cartridge and phono stage synergy and ignored the impact of the table (as some claim there is minimal table impact, while others say there is a significant arm-table factor, but still I could have operated on that principal).  I also find the youtube videos that list the cartridge and phono pre used on the table interesting (but the value is debatable and limited to general tonal considerations and will probably reveal next to nothing about the soundstage).

Purely speculating, I am guessing my table will be fine (especially since some claim minimal or differences between them).  While I have no idea if there is no difference between them or not, the fact that experienced people can reasonably claim it suggests there must not be a lot of difference (at least not at comparable price points).  I am guessing the table won’t be my bottleneck.  
 

I have a feeling that that the phono preamp and what it does or doesn’t do with voices in my system will probably be the biggest thing to get right for me.  I think if this is great with the benz silver cartridge on the table, upgrading the cartridge down the line probably won’t be that hard to get right (especially since the Benz Glider is atop my shortlist for next cart).  Is that true, trueish, somewhat true in your experience?

@gano I used to not understand what colored means to me, but I sure do now.  I have had my speakers voiced everywhich way in my room mimicking frequency responses of all kinds.  What I am using now is a far sight from neutral (it is overtly colored).  I guess any speaker is colored in that it sounds different from any other and none is perfectly neutral.  That said, I think of colored as meaning intentionally and substantially deviating from neutral (or perhaps substantially deviating from some sort of Harman curve).  Saying something is colored immediately begs the question- how?
 

Well in my case I have boosted bass beliw 80hz +10db (as to not interfere with voices), a lower bass at 80hz 5.5db, a peak at 110hz 7.5db, a dip at 141hz to 6.5db, a jump mp to 9db at 150hz -340hz, a massive rise to 18db from 350-485hz, a slight rise to 18.5db from 509hz to 800hz, a relative fall to 9db from 824hz to 3khz, and fall to 3db from 3.09khz to 20khz.

This makes for a midcentric sound where vocals are extremely emphasized or forward, warm, chesty, and emphasized in a way that is way different than my default speaker voicing or neutral.  Bass is strong but only below 80hz so it does not interfere with vocal clarity and emphasis.  In terms of vocal tone and transients, my digital voicing is probably going to be much more like a classic tube system running some classic speakers (admittedly with some harmonic differences, but tonally).  
 

This is colored in that it makes no pretense about being neutral or flat or accurate, it is intentionally voiced to sound full, rich, chesty, bloomy, emotional for vocals by comparison to neutral.  Treble is present but much less emphasized than before.  To me, this has the effect of making voices seem bigger, more present and more real, but also sacrifices some treble detail.  Detail is still there, but compared to my default tuning I need to listen for small details rather than just getting them tossed out at me like my Kantas would do by default out of the box (which also might have been ‘colored’ in a different way).  To me, my chosen colored presentation has the effect of making vocals on normal recordings of normal quality (and poor ones) sound tremendously more real (instead of too quiet, too restrained, or too thin), but comes at the expense of giving up some room air and ambient detail in all recordings, but generally this is never a negative except in the very best audiophile recordings (these still sound amazing, but less amazing than the could if I made different eq choices).

This is my sound and what I like.  And no question it is not neutral or accurate.  The only way I I found what i was looking for is through experimenting with a zillion eq profiles in dirac with the assistance of chat gpt.  I doubt i would have ever arrived in this place through gear/speaker swaps, or if so, not for years.  What I do not know.  
 

From my perspective, I was very lucky in that Chat GPT and Dirac did more for me than 10 years of speaker auditions and gear swaps (if I would have been patient enough and well funded enough to be able to do them, which is unlikely).
 

 I think that as long as one’s dragon doesn’t involve chasing absolute detail (then you are always going to need very revealing speakers and gear that needs to be auditioned) or dynamics (then obviously eq cannot replicate the efficiency required in speakers to produce them), one could likely accomplish a ton of realizing ‘your sound’ without auditioning any gear at all with nothing more than owning a capable amp with enough headroom for dirac eq, and a set of speakers with a good off axis frequency response that takes well to eq (and of course lots and lots of time to dial them in to taste, AI can essentially train you to be your own speaker designer, but only you can listen and then ask the questions necessary to make followup adjustments).  
 

Now, most people are never going to do this, nor should they (they have lives), but for those geeked out enough and motivated enough to make all the gear swaps chasing a dragon, I think maybe they should consider it.

For what it’s worth I had a Thorens belt drive TT back in the late 1980s. Got rid of it when CDs came on the scene. The TT was difficult to set up and never sound great. Fast forward to 2024 and the purchase of the VPI. WOW what a difference. Much, much more dynamic and with so much of that analog sweetness. 

Without digesting all the comments above, I believe you'd be very satisfied with the Technics SL1200G (in silver) or the SL1210G (in black). It's a highly regarded audiophile turntable always listed among the best in Stereophile Magazine's "Best" lists....and by far the least expensive of turntables in that category. Your Ortofon 2M Black should sound very, very good, but consider upgrading to the Ortofon MC Cadenza Bronze if you want a bit more of a warmer sound. Which brings me to your interest in finding something that might sound different than your digital setup. I'm presuming you don't intend to settle for something less trandsparent or richly detailed as you might be hearing wiht your digital gear, but if you want to explore the warmth of tubes, that will be more of a preamp/amplifier decision. However, I think your PassLabs will prove more than adequate at giving you impressive sonics. Good luck to you! 

@2psyop How much of the improvement do you attribute to the table upgrade to the VPI, as compared to your new phono preamp and your new cartridge?  
 

My only prior experience with a turntable was a Victrola Stream Carbon with a built in phono preamp.  It sounded veiled with the Ortofon 2m Red it came with, and I upgraded it to the Ortofon 2m Black which was a huge improvement, but I felt like the poor phono preamp was the culprit with highs on som records and lack of dynamics.  It’s hard to say, and maybe it’s crazy but I could somehow tell or have a sense of that being the probkem compressing things.  That said, even with that setup there were plenty of things I liked about vinyl, particularly greater tangibility or feeling of realness (even with a cartridge that I now believe was ill suited to realizing my preferences despite it obviously being a clear upgrade on the Red).   I am hoping for a good experience, but I am optimistic.  I sortof have a gut feeling that even on my old table if my phono preamp wouldn’t have been so poor (as it almost certainly was), I might have been pretty satisfied in a lot of ways, so that leaves lots of cause for hope in my future setup.  Right now I am waiting on a phono preamp to test out this table…

I cannot say how much the TT has made a difference in sound as opposed to the cartridge and phono preamp. As much as I dislike the word “synergy “ there is a distinct advantage to buying components that enhance one another. For me, I had relied on advice from people I met or corresponded with here on Audiogon who had a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience with turntables- @effischer is definitely one of them. The Technics suggested above and VPI (although different designs) would really do well, I think. The tonearm and cartridge must really be in sync to get great sound IMO. 

@aphilc I recently went for a preowned Michell Gyro SE that is in mint condition.  It came with a Benz Silver MC cartridge with low hours.  I will likely give this a shot out of the gate unless i really dislike it for some reason.

I decided to go for the EAT e-glo petit mkii phono preamp, which is tube hybrd design with a voiced or somewhat romantic breathy midrange (supposedly. Chat GPT likes it over the alternatives under 4k, I looked at given my preferences).  It hasn’t arrived yet, so the jury is still out.
 

What i am hoping to get out vinyl is something a different presentation from digital (not just mostly a similar version of what I have in digital).  My analog will be digitized and run through my Dirac filter (because it is incredible and voices my system) and so the phono pre both needs some character and needs to establish an identity without fighting my very vocal centric dirac eq.  

Early eventual cartridge ideas are in order: 1)Benz Glider, 2) Hana ML, 3) Phasemation pp200.