How Much to Spend on Turntable, Cart., Phono Pre

Without knowing your budget:

35% TT

45% phono stage

20% cart

that's about my breakdown

I have an older VPI Prime.

How big is your record collection? What type of music do you listen to? What is your budget?

My budget is a little bit finicky because I don’t want to spend a ton at once but still flexible because I could use my existing Ortofon Black cart initially and go higher on turntable with an affordable phono preamp, then in a few months upgrade to a real deal phono stage, and then finally go for a serious mc cart after those are done .Let’s say no more than 4k for table, 4k for phono pre, 3k for a cartridge, although I would not move all in at once, I’d likely get a table now, pick up a passable phono pre and run my 2m black, and then look to get the real deal phono stage a few months later.  

Alternatively, I could swing something like 2k-3k for a table and 2k for a phono pre now (but might not be as inclined to do this if I felt I will end up leaving a lot of performance on the table in the end.  I would be most apt to do this if this was simply good enough for the long haul.  I am kindof willing to play the long game here and spread this out over 6 months or a year since I will be streaming anyway.

As for records, I have around 100 carefully curated albums, (all purchased new in the last three years), and only albums that I love listening to in their entirety.  In all honesty, I cannot really envision acquiring more than at most 100 more simply because there are only so many albums I really want to hear every track on.  And at some point it just becomes a problem to locate and store them.  I view this as more of an opportunity to listen to special albums I love in their entirety and have a viable experience with a different flavor than streaming as opposed to anything that will replace streaming.  I could envision listening to vinyl maybe 25% -50% of the time.

Some artists I own on vinyl are Low Roar, Adele,Gilian Welch, Bob Dylan, Bob Marley, Malia, Eva Cassidy, Cigarettes After Sex, Courtney Marie Andrews, Amy Winehouse, Joy Crookes, Norah Jones, Melody Gardot, Nina Simone, Ondara, Agnes Obel, Sarah McLachlan, Joss Stone, Diana Krall, Lady Blackbird, Chris Stspleton, John Mayer, Amos Lee Damien Rice, Ray LaMontagne, Vanessa Fernandez, Shelby Lynne, Dave Matthews Band, Lorde, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Dominique Fils Aime, Chris Stapleton, Sam Smith Phoebe Bridgets, Angel Olsen, Jari Bremnes, Gregory Porter, Haevn, Johnny Cash, 10,000 Maniacs, Natalie Merchant, Jewel, Mariah Carey, Tracy Chapman, etc.  

I tend to iwn vocal heavy stuff on vinyl, because these are the type of albums I am most likely to enjoy as a entire album.  
 

I hope this helps.  Thanks for your ideas in advance.

1. you have a nice setup for the speaker, amp and preamp

2. Chatgpt is all over the map. It just adds details that aren’t there. Its suggestions comes from a very few, very subjective opinions/reviews. (Exactly the same ones that you found underwhelming.) No, audiophile reviews are not good enough, plentiful enough, and objective enough to build a database and train an AI on it. This audiophile buzzword salad is very much in a bubble and you would need to know the reviewer, his/her gear, his/her ear, all the background.   

3. You have done a ton of research, and now you are overthinking it. I am into vocals too. Any decent 1500-2500 dollar turntable will sound awesome. The phono stage is trickier but easier in that there are less choices.

In my experience, the cartridge matters and the phono stage matters. The table and tone arm should not make an audible difference unless you jump a scale up 10 fold. It will work just fine, Rega, VPI, Dual, Technics or Clearaudio.

4. I am not a big fan or Focal. I think the speakers are the weak link in your system. Based on how analytical you are, if you really want the most touching, mesmerizing vocals, maybe try other speakers. The turntable won’t create all that magic in the chain. 

A quick look over your system an it appears you have a pretty well balanced system. The Focal tend to be a bit hot at the top end, which would be countered but the tubed preamp and Pass amp. Generally the investment levels look good across the core. However, if it were me I would upgrade your streamer / DAC. I think there is a lot of sound quality left on the table. An Aurender Streamer and a high quality ~$5K DAC (or at least investing in used). 

My rule of thumb is about 30% speakers, 15% amp, 15% preamp, 15% DAC and 15% Streamer and 10% cables. The important part here is about equal investment across all the boxes. Carefully chosen... it looks like you know how to do that. But I would bring your current system up. 

Then the second question is if you want the very best you can afford. I have been on a quest for the very best sounding. I have spend years attending classical concerts and acoustic jazz and other concerts to make sure I understood what real music sounded like and headed that direction.... instead of wondering around through possible sounds. If you are not focused on the real thing, then you tend to optimize for one kind of music at the expense of others. 

A perfectly put together system sound so good, you don’t want to hear any other... you are so satisfied... you get sucked into the music and forget about "the system". 

If I were you and could invest more... I would double down on digital and make it better. There is not end to how great a system can sound. So greater investment in one leg. Analog is getting eclipsed everywhere for around the same price.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with adding vinyl. It can be lots of fun. Just stick to making the TT a the phonostage about the same investment level as your amp  or pream. 50% Phonostage (I recommend Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, or Zesto). I recommend looking at VPI or Linn (the Magik is upgradable to world class, one piece at a time). However, there are lots of other great tables on the market. You can see my systems under my ID to get where I am coming from. 

How much $$ you got, bub?

Really, though, with the level of gear you've got you should be working with a local dealer to come up with a vinyl rig that works well with your existing setup.

Or you can just start the vinyl rig churn (but it was recommended on A'gon!) and go from there.

Honestly, go to a some local stereo stores, play with what they have, get what makes you happy. Think with what you planning to spend, you can't get any bad gear. 

Also one selection forces the next, try to get pieces that will grow with you. As in, don't get a phono-pre that only does MM when you plan to get a MC cart later. When getting a TT think of your end game cart, make sure it will work with your TT. 

All TT's require some kind of isolation, so budget for that, are also the most sensitive to placement.

+1 @theflattire 

This is a good beginning ratio, but be a bit flexible.  Why?

Like most, you may decide on several 'must  have' features, which may change the ratio costs a bit...

For example, I will probably always buy cartridges with a Micro-Line stylus (or equivalent).  If my budget is somewhat limited, I may need to take some $ from the TT or PP.

Finally, I found switching from an inexpensive SS Phono Pre to a good tube (12Ax7) Phono Pre was a game changer...  

Happy Hunting,

My rig came out like this;

Turntable with tonearm (VPI) was 55%

Cartridge (Soundsmith) was 32.5%

Phono Preamp (Pro-Ject) was 12.5%

My first entry back into analog in about 35 years. I am more than pleased with outcome or sound signature.

I would suggest looking for a used SOTA Star Sapphire turntable.  They're bargains, and you can use the $$$ you save on the rest of the analog system.  They have great isolation, and once you've used a TT with a vacuum hold-down platter, you won't want anything else.  The vacuum hold-down flattens warps and supposedly reduces the resonance of the vinyl.  They also have covers which you can have down while playing a record, unlike many of today's high-end turntables. My Star Sapphire has given me good service with no issues for over 35 years.  I haven't even needed to change the belt, even though I have a spare belt in case I did.  (I live in a moderate climate, so I think that allows various belts and hoses to last longer--including dishwasher hoses and car-engine belts.)

If you're lucky, you'll find a TT with a good tonearm installed, again saving $$$ and hassle.

As for a good-value phono preamp, I'm happy with the Hegel V10 I bought last year.  Haven't listened to others, though, except for the one in my preamp.  Vinyl guru Michael Fremer gave the V10 his blessing.

You'll want to choose a cartridge that is compatible with your tonearm (in terms of the cart's compliance and weight) and complementary to the rest of your system in terms of sound.

A vinyl system does require a great deal of hassle in terms of setup and maintenance, so I am sympathetic to those such as ghdprentice who recommend just focusing on a good streaming system, unless you want to hear obscure music that isn't found on good-fidelity streaming services.

Look at the AudioGon used listings.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings?category=turntables&country_id=184&include_out_of_stock=false&order_by=current_price+DESC&page=4

e.g.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbd0fc-classic-lenco-plain-simple-turntables

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbdg7b-voyd-turntables-voyd-0-5-turntable-in-black-with-helius-cyalene-turntables

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbdie6-gem-dandy-polytable-signature-turntables

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbcba4-jean-nantais-turntable-steampunk-turntables

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa57e4-garrard-301-with-custom-slate-plinth-turntables

@inagroove 

Flexible for sure!

Actually I would try to go 1/3 cart, 1/3 TT, and 1/3 phono stage.  I'm sort of close to that but I got my Koetsu Black used.

I just wrote it that way to show how important I think the phono stage is; it's the heart of the system.

@matthewfpalmer,

Get the best table and arm combo first, in my opinion for the beginner choose the manufacturer that make both TT and arm like VPI, Kuzma.

spent 50% on the TT and 30% phono and 20% cart.

Vinyl is lot thing to consider and also patience .

cheers 

I’magonna ask you something rarely asked. Does your listening room rest on a concrete slab, a rickety old house trampoline floor or something in between?  Because it matters in terms of day in day out livability. DO NOT go for a Linn LP12 or similarly sprung table if you have springy floors!  The only good sprung table for that is a SOTA or Oracle Delphi, with their great attention to a lower center of gravity. Otherwise look at such things as Clearaudio, Technics, or Rega.

I went used at THE MUSIC ROOM.  Got a Rega Planar 8 w/apheta3 cartridge and Rega Aria phono pre amp for less than $4500.  List would have been close to $7000

Maybe Mofi Ultradeck and add optional cartridge like the Mastertracker

@matthewfpalmer we haven't signed a contract that you have to react to suggestions but I reluctantly read your long and winding essay and questions and took the time to give you feedback. It would foster a more productive and kind culture here if you acknowledged the responses here. 

But again, whatever....

@gano  Sorry, it took me so long to get back to your comments (its been a wacky week for me).  

You have given me a lot to think about.  I will take my time and continue to sort through ideas and your suggestions and ponder things over.  I may be overthinking this (I often do, its a character attribute that is both a blessing and a curse.  I would like to hope that Gano’s observation in his first post is true, that any $1500-$2500 turntable will sound awesome.  If true, I really cannot ho wrong because my turntable bar was set pretty low previously.  
 

@dynacohum To answer Dynacohum’s question, yes I do think my room is on a concrete slab.  While my room is carpeted, the adjoining rooms have hardwood floors that are glued down and there is zero give in the floors (compared to all the nailed wood floors I have previously encountered.  I am thinking they were glued because there is concrete below rather than a wooden sub floor to nail to.  I really don’t know for sure though.  My room is a repurposed family room at the back of the house that has built in shelving for a tv and vcr (house built in 89) that is directly behind my listening position.  The room was originally designed to have seating along the sides of the room and people to look sideways to the front of the room towards the fireplace, and sideways to the back of the room to watch tv.  Now that built in is perfect for a turntable sitting in the tv hole (think old school 36” tv) and the shelf below designed for the vcr is perfect for a phono stage.  What is really nice is that it is behind my listening position and opposite the speakers and electronics.  Because it is built into the wall and floor and designed to hold those old super heavy tv’s, it is a great place to place a turntable to keep it from getting vibrations because it is built really solid.  In the time I used my victrola stream carbon (before it died), I cannot recall even one instance of human activity (like footfall or my brother’s children jumping around even when near the turntable for instance) being picked up by the turntable, which shows how solid it really is.  It’s possible this could change with a new table, but I wouldn’t expect it since the old one was hardly a standard bearer.

I have a couple follow up questions:

How much character do you believe there really is in the table/arm alone at similar or somewhat similar price points for tables?  I mean, obviously, better tables are better at rejecting vibrations than budget ones, but how much flavor does a table/arm add if cart and phono pre are the same?  For example, how much different do you believe a Rega P8 will sound to a Michell Tecnodec or Gyro SE or VPI Prime X with the same cartridge and phono stage?  Are there major differences to be had here?  There seems to be a lot of inconsistency on this point out there.  And do the direct drive Technics tables really sound fundamentally any different from belt drive?  Again, there seems to be a lot of inconsistency on this point.

Has anyone here ever compared different tables with same cart and phono stage side by side?  If so, was your experience?

@fatdaddy2  While in principle it could make sense to work with a dealer, my location in a middle sized city in the middle of the midwest makes it challenging, but worth investigating.  I just historically had a hard time in those places because they tend to have few options and tend to tell you what they do have is perfect for you.  This will be doubly true with turntables since they won’t have many.  While it does make sense to listen, a demo in another room in another system with another cartridge (probably) has limited value, and any in home demo will come with more pressure than I probably want, and I am already wincing at the pitch for cables, interconnects, and power conditioners that will ensue…

The other way to look at this is, it may not even matter.  If any flavor would be enjoyable, it may not be necessary to fully comprehend the others to enjoy one.  Perhaps I should be looking to buy on appearance and/or value proposition of buying opportunity instead of attempting to ascertain a house sound?

Knowing you have stable floors means you can buy anything you like!  I had a 30+ year run with a Well Tempered Turntable and Tonearm. I would recommend one for anyone. SOTA is another great option, and Origin Live arms are pretty great. 

no worries, best luck to you @matthewfpalmer 

As a comment on your questions: in my room, there is no vibration (that I sense or hear). I can hear significant differences between cartridges and phono stages. Next in importance is the speed and then the tonearm and then the mat. I can’t hear differences between tables in my price range. Your last point to go by appearance is what I did. As well as reliability. Several times I forgot to turn off my fully manual table for days and it’s still spinning like nothing happened... 

Get the best sounding table/arm you can. go with modest cart if need be, can always upgrade later etc,  source 1st.....I had way back when a Linn lp12/black koetsu  cart thru a Mitch cotter stepup thru a NAD 3020 with ADS 420 bookshelf speakers( all of $350.00 a pair) kicked serious ass !    SOURCE 1ST

Here's 4 pairings to consider. Each represents a different level of value, and each needs no apologies in its price class. 

1) Audio Technica AT-LP-7 and AT 520EB cart. The LP-7 is simply the best table I've found under $1000. Everything is there - good plinth, good tonearm with all necessary adjustments including arm height, heavy platter, and it looks and feels like a far more expensive piece. Some will recoil in horror at the onboard preamp, but it works, has an MC setting if you upgrade carts, and can be bypassed if you go with an outboard unit. The stylus is a modest elliptical, but AT offers multiple upgrades there as well. A shockingly good value.

2) Rega P3RS. Rega are a world unto themselves with their low mass/high stiffness designs, but their tonearms are undeniably great - better than any others in the mid-price range. At $1795 The P3 is first step in the line with the RB330 arm, an external power supply, and the Rega-made ND5 MM cart. I've not heard it, but it is well specced with a nude diamond and low inductance coils which should give it better dynamics. Pair that with a MoFi Studio Phono and a decent set of cables and you should be set for under $2500.

3) VPI Super Prime Scout. 180 degrees away from the Rega, VPIs are heavy. The platter weighs 22Lbs, the separate motor looks like it could run a washing machine, and the multi-layer plinth is 2" thick. The arm is much longer than most at 10.5" for lower tracking error with Shibata and Microline stylus types. It is also a unipivot design with a 'reverse missionary' bearing which freaks some people out because they wobble when handled. They also have the lowest friction and zero issues with loose bearings or bearing chatter. (Full disclosure: i have one and have had zero issues or complaints with it.) IMHO most complaints about unipivot arms come from people who have never owned one. The build on a VPI tells you've moved up into an entirely different class of gear. I'd pair this with a Hana SL MkII moving coil. The SL MkII is a phenomenal cart, and at $850 you'd have to spend 3X or 4X at lrast for even an incremental improvement. In the interest of economy, I'd probably stick with the MoFi Studio, No one is building better value phono stages. Later, you can consider upgrading if feel the need. Negotiate a bit and you could get this package for about $5,000. 

There lots of other options and opinions on this, to be sure. I would avoid too exotic and esoteric used gear for support reasons, and because you're new to this. Lots of potholes on that road. I've been a turntable junkie for over 50 years, and think I've come by opinions with a lot of experience. Good luck with your vinyl journey ry and always, enjoy the music.