How important is it for you to attain a holographic image?

@newbee  Hence my belief that full-scale orchestral recordings are the toughest--and to some extent, impossible--test of systems and the rooms they're installed in.

@orpheus10

—-“I stand by that statement 100%, “

Suite yourself. Doesn’t make it a jot more reasonable to keep standing by it.

If I declared “Without a shadow of a doubt the most desirable car is the 68 corvette”
everyone would understand I am talking for MYSELF since I used the word “desirable” which is a subjective value statement.

No matter how many times I stand by that claim, that will remain the case. To think otherwise is to be confused about the nature of subjectivity and objectivity.

—-“Since whether you know it or not; it is 100% impossible to get holography without having the other desirable elements of audio; “

So you claim. I hope you won’t be insulted if we don’t automatically take everything you claim as Gospel Truth. I haven’t seen reason yet to presume we are in the presence of an enlightened audio guru - writing style aside :).

My own experience suggests your claim is incorrect. I have heard plenty of systems do some incredible dimensionality and soundstaging while sounding to my ears bereft of convincing instrumental timbre, or dynamics, or other traits.

There is no perfect audio reproduction system. All have compromised to one degree or another - something that some other system may do better, or that is preferred by other listeners.

Therefore someone who chooses a system that does not do everything exactly as YOU want it is not by default desiring some coloration akin to a smiley faced eq. It may simply be that they have chosen their own set of compromises where the system has better fidelity either to some aspect of the source or to the qualities of live music that another system doesn’t do as well.

I played in a large funk band for many years. If my main criteria were to reproduce that type of live sound as closely as possible any number of pro PA speakers would kick the crap out of the typical audiophile system no matter how “holographic” their image. Holography wouldn’t even come in to the picture as the live sound never had such a quality to begin with.

So there is no “one size fits all” criteria or claim that can be made as you seem to want to make.

Getting a nice deep wide soundstage is best accomplished, at least to a large degree, by a method that eliminates or reduces trial and error. Correct speaker placement is critical for obtaining the best possible soundstage, but the ubiquitous trial and error technique of moving a little, listening a little is bound to fail to come up with the absolute best locations. The best you can do is find a local maximum. The best way to determine the best speaker locations for any speaker in any room, for whatever stage of room treatment employed, is using one of the test CDs that contain a speaker set up track, also called out of phase track. Another tip is start with speakers closer together and work outward. As fate would have it most speakers should be placed closer together, not farther apart. You know, for best soundstage. Of course, there’s a lot more to it than speaker placement.

Newbee, I was listening to "Black Widow" by Lalo Schifrin, and discovered this record was quite holographic. While it's not a special record in regard to exclusivity (it's quite common) it is special in regard to music and recording quality.

Lalo Schifrin is also quite special; he has done a lot of excellent work for the movie industry.

In the evening, I settle back and listen to music the same as someone with a one box record player; it's all about the music; we might even be listening to the same music. That was meant to clarify any and all misconceptions.


Enjoy the music.

"My own experience suggests your claim is incorrect. I have heard plenty of systems do some incredible dimensionality and soundstaging while sounding to my ears bereft of convincing instrumental timbre, or dynamics, or other traits."


Since "holography" requires the best electronics, and speakers set up by professionals, that statement lacks credibility.



"Therefore someone who chooses a system that does not do everything exactly as YOU want it is not by default desiring some coloration akin to a smiley faced eq. It may simply be that they have chosen their own set of compromises where the system has better fidelity either to some aspect of the source or to the qualities of live music that another system doesn’t do as well."


There are as many ways to "holography" as there are ways to get from you're house to Chicago. I never specified any specific system.

If you don't want a good system, I have no problem with that; however you want to define a good system is fine with me.

I've heard many audio systems which had tons of air, ambiance and 3D holographic sound.  The best were monitor size speakers and one or two way implementation.  There was one in an Einstein equiped room that had the recording sound like it had 50' in back of it, pinpoint imaging while the actual room was only about 8' deep behind the speakers.  They were spectacular for that purpose.  HOWEVER, in my large audio room, there would be missing dynamics and bass.  Exactly why I don't own stats any longer.  Large. expensive speakers with the 3D holographic imaging tended to have music which I will not listen to, simple vocals of Barber and Krall, simple jazz or rock with a bass, drums and guitar (rarely a piano in site-too demanding to reproduce correctly).  We just have to agree to disagree.

Furthermore, the acoustic treatments of the listening room are of paramount importance.  Diffusion of mids and highs are useful for the interiors (and absorption of the bass in the walls).  I use a mixture of SR HFTs and two pairs of Shakti Hallographs to obtain optimal soundstage and imaging.  In my new home, I may switch to high end diffusion panels along the rear and front walls.  It is cheaper to treat the room than just buy more equipment.  

Holographic imaging is not the be all and end all of audio. But when your system has excellent timbre, texture, pace and dynamics---and then you tune it in to the nth degree (speaker placement/room treatments) --it can result in holographic imaging which, to me, is musical heaven. 

Flesschler, in regard to the music, I listen to a lot of "Blue Note" jazz recorded by RVG. That has absolutely nothing to do with holography, but everything to do with the content and quality of the music; holography happens when it happens depending on the record.

I have no idea what we have to agree to disagree about. While most certainly you will not get holography with less than high quality speakers, the size of the speakers are dependent on the size of your room. "holography" is a function of the speakers, the amp, the pre-amp, the turntable, the cartridge, (or CD player), and last but not least, "the room". All of these items must function as one unit; there is no magic "holography button" on the speakers or the rest of the components required to deliver good sound.

I play music the same as someone with a one box rig; what I want to hear at any given moment without any regard for holography.

The biggest perk in my rig is the acquisition of a new collection; meaning the music I acquired 50 years ago is fresh, sparkling, and new.

Since you must have everything else that is desirable in a rig before you can get to "holography", I say it is the most desirable because you can not get to holography before you get to everything else.



gpgr4blu said;


Holographic imaging is not the be all and end all of audio. But when your system has excellent timbre, texture, pace and dynamics---and then you tune it in to the nth degree (speaker placement/room treatments) --it can result in holographic imaging which, to me, is musical heaven.




"Holographic imaging" is the result, for me, of 30 years hard labor that will be complete after I get professional room treatment. It is the "result", not a single item in and of itself, like tone or timbre, but the result of every component functioning as one unit to deliver heavenly music to your specifications.

30 years of hard labor?

Sounds like a prison sentence to me!

Anyway, I won’t be around then.

 

 Holographic sound is fantastisch,but always combinated with detail  and surround. Maybe 1 at 10 recordings have a good balance. A lot of recordings are bad: “ Hymn” , Sarah Brightman is terrible at a good system. Why: Violins in the front,very compact like in a box, not holographic and the voice sounds 10 meters behind.
The wires in your system ar also very important: copper,rhodium for tubes. + silver for transistor .
The placement of the set,the accoustic of the room is important to.
Now i have: Luxman sacd- 06, Audio Note M5,Gamut D-200i and the Ilumnia Magister. My friend: Ear 868 dpf , Ear 509 power Mono Blocks, and Ilumnia Magister. It’s great.
Enjoy your music, make the best of it,because for you,music is one of the important things in your life!! Make 2019 even more musical. “The very best”!!!Lukas

Lukaske - Have you listened to acoustic orchestral music, some big band jazz, piano, even electronica like Yello on your Ilumnia Magisters? They have an unconventional design which is at least quasi-omnidirectional and possibly very holographic.

Have you heard classic 50’s-60’s vocal and jazz recordings? From the Youtubes, I can’t tell whether I like or dislike these speakers because the type of "music" on them sounds like what I hear at audio shows and tells me very little about the music, just sounds. I am very familiar with the EAR tube gear (my backup system is similar).

orpheus10


——“Since "holography" requires the best electronics, and speakers set up by professionals, that statement lacks credibility.“

As I’ve made clear through the thread:  I’ve been referring to a holographic quality in the sense well understood and accepted for many years in high end audio:  as captured by the terms imaging/soundstage/dimensionality.

A number of my systems routinely produce a large soundstage with excellent image precisIon, great depth, a sense of sound dimensional sonic images of musicians in layers of depths detached from, around and behind the speakers.  Often with a nice sense of density and presence.
I recently played the Taxi Driver soundtrack for a musician friend and he was utterly blown away by the sense of real musicians in a real space “Like I was as right there on floor listening to the musicians make the recording.”

Plenty of other audiophiles have systems that soundstage spectacularly as well.

Whereas:  You have been throwing around the term “Holography” in an ill-defined manner.   Seemingly it’s conveniently something you have... but no one is left the wiser if in fact you are experiencing something beyond what we have.  So your pronouncements about what it takes to achieve “holography” just hang in the air as unsupported, vague claims.

—-“If you don’t want a good system I have no problem with that...”

You’ve pulled that out of nowhere.  Of course I want a good system.  That’s why I have one.  And it is very “holographic” was in the ways I have indicated.

And no it didn’t take a professional to set up my system.  

Though I did redesign my room in consultation with an acoustician so perhaps my system has that advantage over yours.

(Though I was able to get a very dimensional image even before the reno)

Orpheus10,

Now that you’ve got the Prof involved, you’re in for it!

Prof, not only have you identified a "holographic soundstage" but you have one; a rose by any other name is still a rose.

"Audio Holography" is nothing more than stereo taken to it's highest level; it's not something different. Using our vision as an analogy, whatever is on the disc or record, is what we're looking at. Two eyes that visualize everything from a slightly different perspective, is what gives the world depth and dimension.

Two speakers projecting slightly different views of the same sound, when perfected; meaning everything in the audio chain is of a very high quality, produce a visual image of the audio. While the gear produces a perfect image, the room distorts this image by not reflecting all the sound waves symmetrically. Trial and error will get us in the ballpark, but since we can not see sound waves, we need professional help, or professional measuring gear in order to perfect the sound stage with room treatment.


We have identified the elusive holographic sound stage, and since it was a team effort, I think it has been defined to everyone's satisfaction.

Each time we upgrade our rigs, we are moving in the direction of "holography" whether we realize it or not. However, it's only when we actively pursue room treatment, are we actively pursuing "Holography".

I experience holographic sound from many mono recordings.  One does not require stereo, 2 channel sound to achieve 3D sound.   My best mono recordings have great depth and open soundstage, including wall to wall sounds as the recording permits.  What they lack is specificity of instruments depending on the recording that stereo provides is inconsequential.  I'm sure you'll claim that mono has only 2D sound.  

Fleschler, just for you, I searched until I found a "Mono" of some of my favorite music; "The Clifford Brown Quintet" featuring Max Roach, Harold Land, Richie Powell, and George Morrow on bass; with Clifford Brown on trumpet of course.

This music was recorded at Capital Studios, Los Angeles, 1954; Although it's in "Mono" the recording quality is fantastic, but it's in "Mono"; that means one big fat center channel spread across my rear wall.

I'm glad your rig is producing holographic sound with a Mono record, mine isn't.

Those Clifford Brown recordings are fabulous in every way!

Yes rvpiano, they are; "Special mastering has been used to produce the best monaural quality from available tape with the feeling that the understanding and enjoyment of the music takes precedence over technology".

Although this is in "Mono", there is an incredible presence and realism to the music; the musicians are in your listening room, one at a time when they solo.

Ha! Nice to know that there are some other Clifford Brown fans posting here. Even though he was killed in a car accident in 1956, at the young age of 25, Clifford has influenced many other players, including modern ones. We are fortunate that he left us with many of his performances on recordings. Every time I play one of my Clifford Brown albums, the same thought occurs to me ... " Wynton Marsalis eat your heart out." :-)

Here’s a beautiful Clifford Brown album and a must have:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Clifford-Brown-All-Stars-Clifford-Brown-CD-1991-XCLNT-Japan-for-U-S/2538258...

The second cut, "Autumn in New York" takes up a whole side of the album. It is a beautiful ballad that really shows the soulfulness of Clifford Brown. I have it both on vinyl and CD. Both are excellent. And yes, its mono, but you won’t care. That trumpet is suspended right between the speakers in all of its joyful splendor. The other cut is hard-bop and shows Clifford’s blazing technique.

Also, another great mono record is Dave Brubeck’s "Jazz Impressions of The USA." Here’s a promo LP:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dave-Brubeck-Jazz-Impressions-Of-The-USA-Columbia-984-PAUL-DESMOND-WLP-PROM...

Yes, again it is mono ... but Desmond’s alto sax just floats on air with excellent presence and tonal quality. I have a promo vinyl copy only, so I can’t vouch for the CD if it even exists. There’s a drum solo on side two by Joe Morello that is demo quality. Like ... dare I say it? .... In the room! :-)

Frank

Once you hear Clifford Brown, there’s no going back.  Sheer genius!

Once you get a holographic soundstage , why would you ever not want it.  It adds to the realism of performers in the room. I guess if you have never experienced it you will not care because you have no idea how great it is . having gone through 30 pairs of speakers in the last 4 years the speakers that can do this have been my favorites.  Panel speakers by far have given me the best imaging . 

Maplegrove, without a doubt, panel speakers are the best for holography; that's because they're "dipole". While this is true, they lack a certain "solidity"; I have the best of both worlds, mine are custom speakers that combine a heil airmotion transformer, which is dipole, with a 6 inch and a 12 inch driver.

A crossover engineer was required to get this to work. I don't recommend it, nor would I ever do it again, because it has taken years of fine tuning to get it just right for my ears, but that's the price for a trip to paradise. (if I had to replace them, it would be with panel speakers)

Do you remember the "Amazing Carver" speakers? I liked them too.


Happy listening, and Happy New Year.

Oregon, I was a teenager staying with my older cousin, who was a jazz collector, in Chicago when Clifford Brown was killed in a car accident.

Clifford Brown and Max Roach Quintet was my favorite album, and "Delilah" was my favorite cut. It was after I had gotten attached to Clifford's music that he was killed; this was heart breaking.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePoc



        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/25/AR2006062500962.html?nav=rss_print/s...

Newbee, you are right, there are not so many and I listen to music the same as someone with a one box player; I listen for music, not holography.

You asked if I ran across a recording that displayed holography, to clue you in. Here's a record that displays it, and it's just a record that I bought before CD.

Weather Report, "Black Market" was recorded in 1975, and it was released by Columbia Records. It's fusion; hope you can find and enjoy it.

@rvpiano .
Thanks for reminding me about Clifford Brown. I got him playing right now...
B

orpheus10 & gdnrbob ...

I remember when Clifford was killed too. My older cousin, who introduced me to jazz, broke the news to me. He was actually crying.

I remember back in the early 70s as I was looking through the used records at Aaron’s Records in West Hollywood, across from Fairfax high school, as a man standing next to me was looking through the Clifford Brown section. I asked him if he knew Clifford’s music. He said ... "Oh sure, I play classical trombone with the Los Angeles Phil. All of us brass players know about Clifford - he was the best."

And indeed he was. :-)

Frank

When I listen to the Hollywood Saxaphone Quartet ( https://www.amazon.com/Hollywood-Saxophone-Quartet/dp/B00CHQKNNO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=15464207...
or Doc Evans "classics of the 20" on Audiophile AP 50, https://www.amazon.com/Classics-20s-Red-Vinyl-Evans/dp/B002LO6RAA/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&...(mid-50s mono LPs, the saxes aren't piled up in the center but spread across between my speakers and the band is spread out as well with instruments placed 3D in between depending on where they were recorded.  So many of my mono LPs have depth and spread out performers, as if they were stereo, it fools even die-hard stereophiles.   Maybe I just have a mediocre audio system that falsifies mono into omni-sound.  Although I doubt that because true stereo sounds great as well and my speakers are definitely non-omni types.  Just ask Oregonpapa since his system is similar type and similar sounding.

I’ve been known to leave the mono switch on after playing a mono album an not notice for a day or two of stereo recordings so probably not a major issue for me.

What I do dislike is when the sound dives for the closest speaker when I listen off axis as I’m often not listening alone, it’s possible to set speakers up so this doesn’t happen and the image stays stabe but the positioning needs to be quite precise. I found Sumiko Masterset quite useful for this.

Yeti, I know it's possible to have a very wide "sweet spot", but very expensive; I don't have it, mine is the same as yours.

Fleschler, probably none of our systems are identical, and yours can do things mine wont do.

yeti42  It helps to widen the sweet spot if you turn your speakers inward so the axis' crosses in front of your head when you are in the sweet spot. 

Woke up this morning to a track that was three dimensional (Gershwin 2nd Rhapsody, Tilson-Thomas, L.A. Phil.). Maybe my hearing got more acute, or my system suddenly improved. I have been experimenting with seating positions lately.
Anyway, although not essential, it’s nice to have.
BTW, My system does have a very wide “sweet spot.”

I have a 1.5 person wide sweet spot and a wide, 5 total seat good listening area between the speakers which are set apart 9 feet center to center, angled about 5 to 7 degrees inward and 13 feet in front of the seating.  They cross far to the rear of the center seat.  I use two pair of Shakti Hallographs and 32 Synergistic Research HFTs to focus the sound and expand the soundstage.  My speakers are called Focus but they don't really do well without the help to focus the sound.  The Signature IIIs focus much better.  

1.5 person sweet spot? You mean like for Roseanne Barr?

Speakers, speakers, speakers; everyone acts like sound just magically appears with a pair of expensive speakers. Well, we all know it doesn't quite work like that.

When I mentioned expensive speakers, I was thinking of MBL, but not the top of the line; also I believe they require the MBL amp, not just this one but all MBL speakers, to work best.



          http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2010/01/x-tremely-x-pensive-speakers/

Normally, I mix and match, but if I was going to buy any of this weird expensive stuff, I would buy their complete system; go whole hog or none at all; "Run with the giant dogs or stay at home"; give me your best euphemism.

     http://www.unitedhomeproducts.com/mbl_prices.htm

Not to be judgmental, but the way I judge a system right off the bat is how high the soundstage is. There are many steps on the way to a great soundstage. Getting the sound to disassociate from the speakers is as important and memorable as the day your testicles dropped. But you cannot get good soundstage height without implementing some drastic measures.

What's your secret Geoffkait?  I would like for mine to be near the ceiling, but it's not.

^^^ Ten foot saxophones don't exist in real life. :-)

Frank

Frank, you misunderstand. No biggie. 😁

Interesting. Most have already touched on my feelings on the matter. Just wanted to say good conversation. 

Geoff, you have some real cajones to make such an analogy.
Frank, as Geoff states, but you were very close.

I remember a time when both the trailblazers of high-end audio here in the UK, Linn and Naim, decreed that holographic imagery a minor issue - timing was said to be the thing back then.

I love holographic imagery but the best I heard was through some noise cancelling Bose over ear headphones. Literally causing users to turn their heads to follow the sound.

However when it comes to commercial recordings I have serious doubts about how high a priority it is for recording engineers. Books like Greg Milner’s ’Perfecting Sound Forever’ paint a rather grim picture regarding some of the shenanigans that take place during recording. It’s quite possible that less than 1% of recordings were made with any real regard for capturing a three dimensional sound. Alan Blumlein, these engineers are not.

So for me tone, texture, timbre, timing and dynamics all come before imagery. I guess those speakers which are able to disappear better must also be better at imaging.

But can they also do those other things as well? Perhaps Linn and Naim were right all along, although their priorities have no doubt changed over time too. Compromises you can live with, and compromises you can't. 

Everybody seems to think "holography" is some kind of trick; no, it's when you put HEA audio, and the room together as well as it can be done.

Are top of the line Theil speakers, trick speakers?  Are top of the line tube ARC Amplifiers, trick amps?

While I used those two names,  substitute any very high quality components you like, and you can probably get the same results.

Once it's done right, everything that everyone mentioned that is desirable will be present.

The record or CD delivers whatever it delivers; but it's for sure that you will get every iota of what there is on the record or CD.

In regard to "holography"; while it is relatively rare, meaning you reach out and touch each musician, I have heard it to the extent, that I heard sounds from a CD of a record that I purchased in 1970, that I have worn out many copies of; it is almost my favorite record.  (my favorite record changes every other day)  But I have been listening to this one long enough to be very well acquainted with it, and I heard something in the background that I had barely heard before; plus it was suspended in space. 

That had to be close to extreme as it can get; no tricks, just high quality components in the chain that were arranged by professionals, in a room that had been designed and treated by "professionals".

I'm with you cd318 as I proposed the same concept for enjoying recorded music.  

geoffkait  I wasn't referring to a person other than myself.  I can sit  about1 foot to my left of center and to my right of center and have a centered sound.  I am 5'11" and 168 lbs. so I'm not Rosanne Barr shaped (luckily).  

As I’ve mentioned before in the Thiel
owners thread, one of the salient characteristics I find in my Thiel
speakers is a focus and density to the imaging. This is a purported feature of time/phase coherence and I can not verify it’s due to that technical feature of the Thiels. All I know is they have a particular density of imaging I don’t quite hear in most other designs. And this for me is a case where imaging has musical consequences. The added density gives a solidity and palpability to the sound that gives a sense of connection - the sense of air being moved by the sonic images rather than a see through mirage.

The only way you can get everything you want in a speaker is to do it yourself. While that was impossible for me to do alone, I discovered a crossover design engineer who could help me. He was about as eccentric as anyone I have ever encountered.

Since I’m a do it yourself technician, I was shopping at a speaker store that sold high quality wire of all compositions, and any kind of drivers that you wanted. Me and the owner had become quite well acquainted, and I told him about my new project. That’s when he told me about his new engineer that he would introduce me to if he was in. (if he’s your engineer, why don’t you know whether or not he’s in)?

This is where things really got interesting. The owner took me to the room where the engineer was working; it was a darkened room where the engineer was peering into a computer screen that had two solid colored, red and green, geometric figures with numbers on them that he was moving around on a screen. (how can you have pictures of a solid cone and sphere on a flat screen?)

After I was introduced, he said "Hi", just barely turning around, and went back to moving his figures with the numbers on them around the screen.

That’s when I realized he wasn’t the talkative kind, and I went to blabbing about what I wanted. I had read every thing I could find about "crossovers" in the library, In "Audio" magazine, in "Stereo Review", in the UK magazines, and in "Stereophile".

I went on and on while I assumed he was listening, but he didn’t give much indication that he was. I told him Theil was the closest speaker I had auditioned that I could use as an example, but I wanted to also incorporate an AMT driver. That’s when he responded (at last I knew he had listened)

"That’s not going to be easy. You say you want a 3 way with a 12 inch woofer and a 6 inch midrange with a AMT tweeter. Come back in two weeks".

The owner said, "I think he likes you", when I left. How he could tell, I don’t know; maybe it was because I had communicated that I knew something about crossovers.

After two weeks, he showed me his drawing on paper. The owner told me he would have the crossover together in two or three weeks. When I returned, there it was; 3 separate crossovers; one for the tweeter, one for the midrange, and one for the woofer; a total of 6 crossovers, one for each driver in two speakers.

This is the way it went; They gave me the parts, and it was up to me to put them together; but I knew his crossover would be magic.

After I built a cabinet, put it all together and listened; I went back and told the engineer about something I thought should be changed. He told me he would crack my knuckles if I changed anything, and he wasn’t smiling. If his convictions were that strong, I wasn’t about to change anything.

That was sometime in 1990, and since then, I have switched to the highest quality parts, plus I don’t know how many modifications to the cabinet; but I have not changed one single value of any part, and I couldn’t be happier.