@optimize mentioned some good points as have some others. To address your question: the sound will definitely be better with a sub or two or more. Even if you have a speaker that can truly reach down to 20Hz the position of your speakers will dictate how the room nodes develop. If you move the speakers to a position where the bass is good it is extremely unlikely that you will be happy with the mids and tops!
A speaker that produces from 40Hz and upwards with 3 subs optimally positioned will easily outperform the necessarily huge and expensive full range speakers.
You can also rest assured that all domestic rooms will need some acoustic treatment which is another issue.
Along with some good advice I see the inevitable recommendation to add tone controls or room EQ. which will not sort out the unavoidable peaks and nulls. A 40Hz tone has a wavelength of about 28ft which when bouncing around will combine constructively (peaks) and destructively (nulls), using room correction the peaks can be attenuated so they are less offensive at the listening position but when you move around you get to hear all the peaks that remain. With nulls, which is musical information that is missing, understand that no device can manufacture that info, it's gone AWOL. Trying to pump lots of power into that frequency will just cancel with the same power. It's futile and if you drive the amp into clipping you stand a good chance of blowing your tweeters.
EQ can work once the Schroeder frequencies are taken care of which varies from room to room, about 300Hz average. How to take care of them? Add bass traps and multiple subs and as has been mentioned, get a mic.and free program off the net. If you go this route you will be utterly amazed and will have little desire for any EQ!
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I use a pair of subs with my main stereo pile (RELs bought used in great shape...inexpensive...I now own 3 of them) and this does help with the dreaded standing wave issues, but I also experienced a huge improvement when I used just one sub. Note that the world in general, meaning simply the sound of life, has a very wide frequency range...most speakers can cover from maybe mid bass to relatively high frequencies, but subs provide a more life-like element including some ambient sound as well as accurate bass and often make your main speakers sound much better. I check where my main speakers drop off and put the subs close to that point...adjust for taste...I also use a Loki sometimes if a recording sounds like it needs help from Knob Turner, and I have a new version coming from Schiit (back ordered) and it will be interesting to see how they improved the thing. |
A video I watched said even a violin sounds better with a sub. That did it.
I was associating a sub with that annoying thump from a car truck and didn’t understand why anyone would be happy adding that to a 2 channel system. I’m new to better hifi and quickly learned you don’t know what you don’t know.
Just found out my second sub is on the way. Planning for all four by years end.
Whatever you do, do it! |
Just TRY a sub. We're beating a dead horse now. |
To answer your question if you need a sub, get a sub with a Bluetooth App. SVS and Paradigm are two of the few offering that feature. With a swipe of your finger you can mute the sub. A/B ing with only a few tracks will let you see the NIGHT and DAY difference. The most important part is you are doing this from the listening position. No more running behind the sub. A quality sub will fill in the missing frequencies 40-20 Hz or lower, even the most pricey floor standers can’t produce. Check out Paul’s of PS Audio YouTube videos on the subject. Even my Golden Ear Triton 2’s which have powered bass modules built in benefit from my SVS SB-3000! |
You need a sub if you can not play the music you like with sufficient bass and image size and restricted volume levels if you have any of those problems a sub or larger speakers will fix those issues in most cases.
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So the best way was suggested before, get a test CD or album that plays pink noise or frequencies from zero to 20 kHz and a pretty good DB meter. have the meter at the listener’s level and measure the readings over the entire frequency range. I do not want to be rude "the best way" and then suggesting something that were the best way at the 80-ties. 🤔 Maybe a computer with free software like REW instead of a CD. And a inexpensive AND calibrated measurement microphone ~70-100$ much better than any DB meter.. But a dB meter is better than nothing and it is almost as nothing also in comparison. But I understand that not everyone are handy with computers and software. (No pain no gain.) You will get graphs with levels and frequency at any point you desire in your room and move your speakers and see exactly what happens for each change you make. You also get so much more for example can get help to find crossover point and delays for your subwoofers to time align them with your mains automatically generated. You can do multipoint measurements and also do moving microphone measurements and you can see decay times for across the whole frequency band to see what your treatment do for you... And so much more that you can’t do at all with a DB meter.. so much more so it is not even funny. 😉💖 And remember our hearing is NOT the same as a flat graph.✋ Even if we would like it to be.. it is convenient to think so. This is regarding to get something flat.. it LOOKS nice with a flat line.. anyway microphones measure accurately.. let me explain below. Study this graphs that show how our hearing works across the frequency band. Note that they are far from horizontal or linear/flat for that matter.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lindos1.svgIf we measure with a microphone the same shape as the graph shows sound coming from a speaker. Then we would experience that speaker as truly flat. With equal loudness from 20 to 20000 Hz. So as you see in the graph, if we follow the 60 line that is 60 dB at 1 kHz so for us humans we perceive that at 20 Hz at 107 dB is AS LOUD as 60 dB @1 kHz. Because our hearing is less sensitive at 20 Hz.👂 In other words if you strive for as a goal to make your frequency response flat so you have 60 dB also at 20 Hz then you precive when you listo, that you have attenuated the level at 20 Hz by 47 dB! And that in it self make us to not be able to hear ANYTHING at all at 60 dB @20Hz! 😱 When you can clearly see that 60 dB @20 Hz is BELOW your hearing threshold (the other read line named the same). I hope this is food for thoughts. 🤔😍🌷❤️ (This is just science worked on since 1933 and then reassessment and revised in 1956, which became the basis for an ISO 226 standard later on.) |
Do the measuring with a sound meter app and white noise to see if/what you are missing or not. Only then will you know for sure. Having that lowest octave reasonably flat in response along with all the rest makes a significant listening difference ranging from huge on many recordings to minor or even none on others.
Room acoustics is a different issue and greatly impacts bass. Not a bad idea to get a handle on that first with what you have before adding anything. |
Minorl: I like your idea of testing DB at all the frequencies. Aside from my wondering about subs, I'm sure I have room problems I don't know about since I have almost no points of reference as to how rooms/systems without problems sound.
It's certainly possible (and maybe probable) that I don't need anything more than what I've got, given that I can maximize/improve without adding devices or components.
By the way, I'm pleased that so many posters are really trying to help me vs promote other agendas or make me feel like a dumbass. |
An interesting test is to do the measurements in a system that has subs with the test CD and sound level meter and see if it shows too much bass.
enjoy |
First of all, a lot of bass in some music is entirely unrealistic. I've been with many people listening to recorded music where some said bass was great and others including myself said the bass was over emphasized.
Way too much.
So the best way was suggested before, get a test CD or album that plays pink noise or frequencies from zero to 20 kHz and a pretty good DB meter. have the meter at the listener's level and measure the readings over the entire frequency range.
See where the gaps, valley, peaks are. This also helps tell you the room effects and helps solve room issues.
if your system's bass response is what it is suppose to be, IOW, is it flat?, then no, you do not need subs at all. your system and speakers are doing their job.
If it isn't flat, that does not automatically mean you need subs, it may be the room. Or a combination of room and system.
It is definitely not a simple as "I need subs".
A test CD and a sound level meter are not expensive.
enjoy
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Two potential issues with boosting bass levels alone versus adding a good powered sub and setting it up properly:
1) You might increase bass SPL FBOFW but not at the lowest octaves down to 20hz which is likely what is mostly missing to start in most cases. That depends on speakers and room size/acoustics.
2) increasing bass levels will make your existing amp work harder. The lower the frequency, the harder it will work. It may or may not be up to the task so results could well be far from optimal, possibly worse overall. Powered subs deliver a lot of power typically for a reason.....it is needed for low bass. Power demands increase exponentially as frequency decreases. A powered sub will truly supplement your system’s bass capabilities. How well depends on picking the right sub up to the task with your mains and in your room and then setting up up well, which is not hard. Setting up well requires only a free sound level app on a smartphone and a source of white noise which can be streamed from sources over the internet. Or you can do it by ear which is not as reliable for best results but may still deliver the results you are looking for. |
So what does anyone think of the idea of using a Loki as a very inexpensive experiment to see if more bass even suits me. The Loki may be a solution but it may also cause you problems. I am making an assumption here, and you may already know this, but the Loki is more than likely a 4 band peaking style e.q. with a very low “Q” so depending on where the center point of each band is you may be boosting or cutting the wrong frequencies for your room. For an example in my room boosting the frequencies between 40 and 50 Hz (approximately 1/3 of an octave) gives me a very full and large sounding kick drum, but if I boost 63 Hz just a little bit (the next 1/3 octave above 50 Hz) than that same kick drum becomes very boomy. My guess is that each channel in the Loki covers a much larger range than 1/3 of an octave. I don’t know what the range is but it wouldn’t surprise me if each channel covered a couple of octaves or more.
Another option that may be worth looking into would be a miniDSP unit. It should be comparable in price to the Loki but I believe it has several bands of parametric e.q. capabilities where you can select the center point of the frequency that you want along with the “Q” so you can better tailor the unit to the needs of your room.
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How do you know if you need to add a sub (without auditioning one, I mean)? short answer is you don't |
Forget the Loki and at least try a pair of subs...subs do so much more than only deep bass for a system...then decide exactly what configuration works best for you... |
So what does anyone think of the idea of using a Loki as a very inexpensive experiment to see if more bass even suits me. If you have a standing wave in the room, EQ and room correction won't do anything to fix it! |
There are very few systems that do not benefit from subwoofers and bass management. However, adding cheap subs without a dedicated 2 way crossover is frequently worse than having no subs. To add subs correctly you either need a room control system with bass management or a calibrated mic measurement system like Dayton's Omnimic along with EQ capability. Trying to do it by ear is very difficult if not impossible.
Doing the DIY thing is a good way to get higher quality subs at a better price and there are some very capable plate amps available. I personally prefer passive subs with outboard amps and crossovers. I would never go less than two 12" subs or four 10" subs. Contrary to lay instinct, larger drivers are not "slower" than small drivers and they have significantly less distortion. Get the largest ones you have room for. |
Or you can do like I did. With the do it yourself. Buy at least a pair of 18" woofers. You will need that size of different reasons see below. To get a better chance to be able to get definition, fastness and so on. Go for a open baffle (OB) "enclosure" (one reason you have to go big on the woofer with inefficient enclosure). But we are after the best SQ not efficiency.. 😉 Buy a Ikea cabinet that comes with a door. Take out some on two of the sides of the door so it will fit inside of the cabinet. That is your front baffle, on the door make a hole for your driver. https://www.ikea.com/se/sv/p/knoxhult-vaeggskap-med-doerr-vit-10326791/Get creative and brace the cabinets insides with maybe something like 4 by 4 that will act as the distance inside were you fasten the front baffle (the door). The object is to make a H-frame OB. Then you use REW, mic and DSP. For finding crossover point (slopes), phase (delays), level match, PEQ, custom curve and if you are a vinyl guy a rumble filter you will probably need that. 😉 Custom curve is the other reason you need to go to big drivers. To be able play louder as the frequency decreases so you compensate for your ears lower sensitivity when frequency drops. That will make your ears to experience that the frequency response is flat to 20 Hz (and beyond). (That is one example of that our hearing is not like a measurements microphone when our hearing is NOT linear). The "down side" is that nobody else can say i have heard those and it sounds .. or the second hand market the subs are worthless when nobody knows what they get.. But do we care what others think and do we want to flip them or play music?.. Now when done put on the dark side of the moon you can thank me later, your are welcome. You will hear new stuff on that record that you did not hear before and you thought you had fully experienced that record and knew how it sounds.. It is now a totally new experience. You will hear a second pair of a heart beats that is lower in frequency and level. Than the "normal" heart beats are at.. So new "music" information that the artists intensional put into their tracks for you to experience. So until now in other words you have not experienced dark side of the moon fully as pink floyd intended you to do.. And that were released 1973. So the questions are.. ..how much music information have you missed out on since then.. and why you dont have a reproduction system that supports all the frequencies that your ears can hear? 🤔 When you think about it like that then the decision-making is simple.. |
I had the same question.
I took my 20 yo home theater sub (B&W ASW1000 which is just fine for move explosions and helicopters) and hooked it up to my dedicated 2 channel system, just to see what it sounded like with my B&W 805D3s, not expecting much. I dialed the crossover down to maybe 50Hz, set the volume to just under where it was obvious, and immediately heard the difference. Even that old tubby/slow HT sub added a depth and warmth that wasn't there before. Whole experiment took maybe 30 minutes.
After proving the value to myself, I got 2 REL S510s and took the time to place them and dial them in. Night and Day. Shocking, really.
If you don't have an old sub laying around, borrow one from a friend or you can probably find a used one on craigslist for super cheap. It doesn't have to be very good or modern to do your own experiment. |
61: great information. Thanks so much. |
It is simple, 99.9% of systems improve with subs. |
To the OP, mild curiosity has now reached the point where you NEED four subs and people just don't understand why you're hesitating.
If you want more bass, then EQs can do the job. If you want deeper bass, then a subwoofer is your tool. Keep in mind that there really isn't much musical content below 40Hz on most recordings. On most popular recordings over the last 60 years, bass was in the 50 to 160Hz region. The lowest note on a 4 string bass guitar is 41Hz, but it's fine if your loudspeaker doesn't go that low because the low E note has a large amount of overtones that fill for the fundamental. Reading into many of the comments above I suspect people are setting the level on their subwoofer(s) so high that they can hear the subwoofer. It's can be impressive, but it's not very accurate. |
So what does anyone think of the idea of using a Loki as a very inexpensive experiment to see if more bass even suits me. I know it won’t be the lower register bass and there are plenty of other differences between this and a sub. Think you just answered your own question. Why even bother? You’ll be missing many of the benefits of adding a sub(s) so really what’s the point, especially when you can try actual subs in your system absolutely risk free? I frankly don’t understand the hesitation. |
The ATC SCM40s have low frequency extension as good as any three-way speaker of their size and better quality bass than than nearly all at that price point. I know that model. The specifications ATC provides is a bit misleading because their speakers are tested or the specs published differently than others.
I too would recommend an audiokinesis system if you want to go down that route. I have heard it. It is very good, affordable and lends itself to setup success rather than frustration. Otherwise a sub would be way down on my list of rabbit holes. |
You don't NEED a sub, but you may want one. Suggest that you buy a Hsu VTF 15H Mk 2 in plain black for under $1,000 (costs another $150 fro wood veneer finish) and see how you like it. Strongly advise that you add a second one when you can afford it. |
A Loki does a nice job of boosting bass and also taming treble or bringing midrange more forward. It won't be money wasted even if you go on to get subs, and they sell pretty quickly, used, if you want to put it back out there. Low risk, medium reward experiment. It's a good idea. |
So what does anyone think of the idea of using a Loki as a very inexpensive experiment to see if more bass even suits me. I know it won’t be the lower register bass and there are plenty of other differences between this and a sub. Nonetheless, I still wonder what someone more expert than I thinks about this idea.
Along those same lines, if someone has a loki with speakers like mine or similar speakers, what sort of Settings did you end up with? Do you adjust them enough to justify having the Loki? Where is the best bang for the buck in terms of the band adjustment?
As usual, I have a suspicion that a lot of these questions are naïve, born of ignorance, or perhaps just unanswerable. It does no harm to ask, though. |
In response to the question below, I run my mains full range and use no room correction.
As for "needing" a sub, well, I am fine with the word "need." Because it's not just about the notes down below. My room was as dialed in as it could possibly be, and I still had some peaks and dips well above the sub range *until* a sub was added, crossed over most effectively around 100 hz. Somehow, that addition changed peaks and nulls in the SPL all the way up to 300 hz. Whatever additional bass I was hearing, it was the effect on other problematic aspects of my room response which solidified for me the use of subs. |
Depends on what kind of music you listen to and how loud you play it. If you are listening to bass driven music like blues and rock a sub is almost essential, other genres, not so much. The biggest issue with subs is integrating them. Integration is a 2-way process in that you need to integrate them to the room as well as your system. There are tools out there that make the process much easier but most 2 ch. systems are not designed to allow their incorporation.
Multiple subs definitely makes the integration task much easier. I have never heard an actual Audiokinesis "Swarm" bass system, but what I have read about it I believe it is probably the best bang for the buck sub system available and probably one of the easier systems to integrate since I believe the Dayton amp that comes with the system has both low and high pass filter capabilities, which in my opinion is essential for proper integration. Other good value subs I'm familiar with are SVS and Rythmik and HSU is probably worth looking at also. For a little more money the "e" series subs from JL Audio would be worth a look since they also have low and high filter capabilities. |
Need? Why?
I do not comprehend.
I have subs because I enjoy hearing freqs (if present) that are below the capability of my mains.
Maybe you NEED a haircut. There are actual reasons for that. |
Wow, what ton of helpful responses. |
Sound meter (you can use an app on a smartphone) and white noise as a source ( available to stream via internet).
If you do not see response down to 20 hz, you are missing the lower octaves that you should be able to hear and a proper sub would be the remedy.
Use the same app and white noise to adjust the sub to proper level and crossover frequency if you get to that point. |
Thanks for the responses so far. Is there a consensus as to how much one
needs to spend to get a decent sub that really makes a difference? I’m
not saying I want to spend the bare minimum, I’m just interested in a
basic parameter. There are plenty of great subs. In smaller systems I've really enjoyed the SubX from Goldenear. But one thing you'll run into right away in most rooms is standing waves which will make the use of one sub hard to do and likely causing the sub to be inconveniently placed. These are bass notes whose wavelength is significant- under about 80 Hz they are over 14 feet long. Such a wave can bounce off of the wall behind you; at certain frequencies when it comes back to the listening chair will cause a loss of bass energy as it can be out of phase with the incoming waveform. I know Erik gave advice about using room treatment and room correction for this problem. In a nutshell, it will make little difference if bass is being cancelled by standing waves!. When bass is being cancelled, room correction will ask the amp to make more power at that frequency, and of course that power will be cancelled- you'll have the same problem and the amp will run out of gas. Room treatment won't fix it either, unless you're able to have the bass traps actively move about the room as the bass notes change :) But there is an elegant solution, and one of the best ones isn't all that pricey. I'm referring to the use of a Distributed Bass Array (and the best example of this is the Swarm from Audiokinesis.com). A DBA uses four subs placed asymmetrically in the room. Because the wavelengths are so long, bass below 80Hz is omnidirectional- you can't tell where its coming from. Its the harmonics of the bass notes from your main speakers that allow you to place the source in front of you. So in a DBA, with the bass coming from a variety of directions, the standing waves are broken up, causing the bass to be evenly distributed around the room. The Audiokinesis Swarms are designed to be placed directly against the wall so as to take advantage of the room boundary effect, which is +3dB per octave going down from 100Hz or so. In this way the Swarm subs can be fairly compact as they are designed to roll off at 3dB/octave over the same range. The result is flat response to 20Hz. They need a subwoofer amp but Duke at Audiokinesis can guide you on that- its not expensive. As long as the subs are not making any output above 80Hz they will not attract attention to themselves. So they should be crossed over lower, maybe at 50Hz or so. In most rooms this is insanely easy to set up. After this is done then Erik's suggestion of room treatment and the like is useful but not before! |
Which subs have high pass filter outputs that go to the speakers, to relieve them of reproducing very low frequencies? I could see how that would reduce distortion. An extra active crossover is too much cost and complexity for me. |
hilde45,
Did you run your mains full range or with a cut-off? Are you running room correction? If so, the mains may have been driven less hard with the subs reducing distortion. |
With all the speakers I auditioned before buying, I tried both with and without a sub. With some speakers -- big towers like the Focal 948 and Martin Logan ML 60 Xti, the single large driver REL sub I had didn't do all that much, not even for imaging, etc. If I had had a sub which could really reach down there -- 14 hz or 20 hz, then what @simonmoon said about atmospherics would probably have become evident.
That said, every other speaker I listened to was improved by a single sub. Bass notes appeared, image and soundstage enlarged and got more definite, and (most surprising) the tonal richness of mids and upper frequencies were altered in a good way. I'm now on my way to stereo subs before, one day, going with a swarm.
As for price, I think there are good options out there and some have been listed already. I think you could likely get set up pretty nicely for under $2k for two. |
To start, you’re satisfied so theres no need to add a sub!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adding a sub in the OP system, will only make a unhappy camper, out some $$$$.
Subs are for HT ONLY,
Subs should havea label
~~NOT FOR HIFI USE~~~ |
Almost any speaker can be improved with the addition of a good sub or subs (my opinion).
HT usage,
For hifi, a sub will pollute the soundstage. |
Subs, well integrated, can be glorious,
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Read above,
Just bashed your sub idea. |
By specs, they don't go low.
My W18E001's dual Thor cabinet go down to 40hz
Just added a 2.2uf Mundorf SESGO cap to the 10 uf Mundorf Supreme Gold/silver and man, massive bass.
Caps make a dif.
I would never add a sub, as my other tech geek mentioned, a sub is for HT, not high fidelity.
Change out the caps in the bass to Mundorf SESGO, and hear what happens.
They are not cheap, but well worth it.
I don't believe in the 20-40 hz range , = there is not much there to make any dif.
Just get the 40-60hz range working at max, and thats all you need.
Now if you really want to go extra bass, replace your 8 inch woofer witha Seas Excel Graphene W22 at $1k pair.
= Beats out any sub for hifi. |
Erik: Thank you so much. It was very helpful. |
Subs, well integrated, can be glorious, reduce coloration and increase the sense of scale (physical image width/depth) as well as dynamic range. The problem is always, always always getting it well integrated. I've been here long enough to stop trying to help individuals do this and recommend if you want to go this route you rely on automatic room correction and experts with the room treatment. I wrote about this here: https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-to-not-buy-subwoofer.html |
Almost any speaker can be improved with the addition of a good sub or subs (my opinion). |
Please read the first response again. Notice specifically mentioned is the number of subs. Not mentioned at all is how big or powerful. That's because when it comes to subs how many matters much more than how big. So, you need four. Any size. Take your budget, buy four subs with it. That simple. |
Fiesta: great idea.
Guy: big sub=divorce. |
A pair of SVS sb3000s is a great choice. I love my sb4000 and have experience with the 3000 series and I don't think you would be disappointed. You also may want to look into a pair of HSU uls-15s if the larger box size doesn't put you off. |
If you're not sure about subs, why don't you try a new SB3000? That way you can return it if you don't like the improvement. If you do like it, then you can look for a second used SB3000. What do you think? |
How do you know?
You spend $50-100 on a microphone and spend an hour learning to use REW. Anything else is just guessing. Best part is it will help you to optimize what you have and if you get subs, it will help with that too. Anyone tuning by ear I guarantee has uneven bass. They will swear up and down they don't. They do. Look at hilde45 post. |
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Hey, Bruce. I am eternally grateful. I won’t forget you.
I was researching subs and decided that if I gathered enough extra bucks, I’d start with a used SVS PB3000 and take it from there. We have a large, cathedral ceilinged, complex room or I’d aim at something smaller. So I appreciate your right on the mark advice. You haven’t been wrong yet.
marc |
