High End System Building. How important is the matching, cabling and room? Thoughts ?
The last 20 years as an audiophile and now a dealer has taught me a very important lesson. Everything matters. The equipment can be great but no matter how much you spend the matching is very important. The cabling is also important. Some think cabling is all about making it sound better. I prefer my cabling to not get in the way. It’s like it can’t be a clogged faucet for your sound. Materials and shielding are very important. In addition to that the room is very important. You may not have a perfect room but you build your system to work in the room you have. I don’t have all the answers but you can’t just spend money and have a great system. Combination of equipment, cabling and room has gotten me there. I’ve tried a lot of gear and cables and this is how I feel. What are your thoughts everyone?
jayctoy Cables are very important in matching from digital , pc to speaker cables.
In my opinion, if audio cables are made properly, all cables sound the original music and cable matching is not needed. However, all cables are not made properly and sound different. Even same model/brand power cords made by a same person in a same day sound different each other because no one knows how to make PC properly. Everybody (Audio companies, DIYers, any electrical part manufactures) know how to make PCs and that is the limit and not enough to make proper audio PCs. That’s why audiophiles keep changing equipment and wishing for a good luck in matching cables. Alex/WTA
The "dealer" would rarely tell you that...he may be all about "matching" expensive crap with other expensive crap and constantly capitalizing on the poor dude’s constant disgruntlement.
@deep_333i have a hard time believing this. I’m sure there are unscrupulous dealers out there but anyone reputable who is trying to build a business should be considering the clients room and anything else the client is looking for. Happy clients mean repeat business and all. I’ve worked for an unscrupulous boss before and it made it hard to make sales (was in the arborist trade for a while). Maybe I’m projecting how I would approach sales, although, I hope most dealers have more probity.
I would have expressed that in a more cautious way myself even if i agree with the post ...
Most dealers are like audiophiles here with 40 amplifiers behind them and 50 dac and as much speakers experience , they know the gear , but they dont know much about the importance of acoustics ( i dont spoke about a few panels here ) and about electrical noise floor controls or mechanical vibration/resonance problems ... r : tThey they advise ANYWAY the customers as the customers ask for : the gear attention is focussed on the gear piece it is not focussed on the way to embed acoustically , mechanically and electrically anything, because price tag and the piece matter no more here ...Anything at any price must b3e well embedded to work optimally ...And the diffrence is always huge for any piece at any price ...This dont means that my low price active speakers even modified will rival Revel Salon well embedded ...
As said mike lavigne in his own way in another priceless post , HIGh-END is more a state of the creative mind than a price tags race ....
The "dealer" would rarely tell you that...he may be all about "matching" expensive crap with other expensive crap and constantly capitalizing on the poor dude’s constant disgruntlement.
@deep_333i have a hard time believing this. I’m sure there are unscrupulous dealers out there but anyone reputable who is trying to build a business should be considering the clients room and anything else the client is looking for. Happy clients mean repeat business and all. I’ve worked for an unscrupulous boss before and it made it hard to make sales (was in the arborist trade for a while). Maybe I’m projecting how I would approach sales, although, I hope most dealers have more probity
I and several fellow audiophiles with good listening skills and systems have spent good money on treating our rooms with all manner of acoustic treatments. In two specific cases folks paid big money for a room acoustics company to come in and professionally treat the rooms. In the end, the rooms sounded better with all the “stuff “ taken out. I experienced the same thing about 13 years ago.
Few absolutes in audio and this includes “treating” a space with all manner of absorption and diffusion. My current room has a few diffusion panels strategically placed and sounds good so I am all for experimenting with treatments. However, I do not believe they are a must for every room and situation. Just not the case based on my experience.
Experimenting and working hard on speaker placement and listening position is something I am willing to say is absolutely needed.
Most dealers are like audiophiles here with 40 amplifiers behind them and 50 dac and as much speakers experience , they know the gear , but they dont know much about the importance of acoustics ( i dont spoke about a few panels here ) and about electrical noise floor controls or mechanical vibration/resonance problems
@mahgisterthat's interesting to hear. I've loved music for as long as I can remember but haven't built a decent system, at least decent for me 😀, until the last few years. There is so much I have learned in that time, however, it baffles me that dealers would not be keenly aware of room acoustics, etc.
@grannyring I believe it's easy enough to over treat a room as much as under treat one for sure.
I like my 12 gauge radio shack cables to be flexible so they drape from ceiling to the Maggies hung from it. I think I have a few soldered splices in one of them because I didn't have a long enough length. So they match the small room.
I mean, once one starts hanging speakers from ceilings at various angles all bets are off. There are so many reflections that it's great. Like a giant pair of headphones but with ambience and depth.
@jayctoyi spent a number of years in this hobby. I didn’t always have money to afford the higher end stuff. I learned through long demos that I would get when I did collections for a cable company. He had access to some great gear and allowed me to learn and borrow from long demos. I learned to listen for certain things and learned from some great people in this hobby. I had a lot of old school guys around me. Also taught me tweaks etc. I helped with the development of the Infigo cables. I’m blessed in this hobby. I have a great system. Expensive but it’s matched properly synergy wise and fits my listening environment
How many dealers, reviewers or show rooms have great rooms? I get what you are hearing with your rooms but if your equipment does not offer the correct tone, separation, soundstage, speed, dynamic contrast then what does that mean for the room? Just asking.
@jayctoyi now work for Infigo Audio. It has allowed me to get some really great gear that had been out of my reach. I’m enjoying my method 4 dac and method 6 stereo amplifier. My cables were made for these electronics so my system synergy is off the charts. I’m very happy with what I have. Gonna enjoy it for a long time to come. I tested all of it before I purchased in a long demo so I’m in a good space system wise.
@bigkidz+1 I agree. There are certain things that the electronics have to do that the room will not fix. Some equipment just ain’t gonna get it done for some of us no matter what room it’s in. If it’s not properly matched it ain’t gonna work either. Regardless of the room
Personally having owned a Audiostore fora decade lots of matching and experimentation and knowing the quality ,lots of cheating going around to make more $$. ,that being said cable brand that suits your taste as a loom I feel is important for very overlooked is the end connectors most use gold over Brass ,is 3 x less conductive meaning also that much more resistance , the quality ofthe conductor ,as well as dielectric ,Wire world Eclipse is a perfect example of a very well thought out cable not too expensive but does everything in build very well.
silver will give a bit more extension but at the expense of a bit of body and fullness
your equipment character will dictate this since you have resistance ,inductance and capacitance ,keeping the same brand adheres to this formula , a different brand will change the same synergies , power cords are much more flexible.
@bigkidz+1 I agree. There are certain things that the electronics have to do that the room will not fix. Some equipment just ain’t gonna get it done for some of us no matter what room it’s in. If it’s not properly matched it ain’t gonna work either. Regardless of the room
@bigkidz@jayctoythe whole reason we give people free demos is so they can try stuff and hear it for themselves with no obligation to purchase. You get to decide does it work for you in your system. Coming from just a regular audiophile to a dealer I felt like people should try it in their systems. That way you not in the blind as an audiophile I hated that. You get a 15 day demo to decide for yourself. That’s why when people make certain statements I ignore them because most won’t let you try before you buy I do cable wise.
My "listening room" (such as it is) is small and highly flawed (and if it isn't highly flawed it is only because of total luck) and by everything I have read, the level of my electronics totally exceeds the acoustic capabilities of the room. However, there is certain (digital) source material that absolutely shines, and in the dark with my eyes closed the sound stage prevails and the room disappears.
On the other hand, I have rolled tubes that were completely "blah" and I have source material that is flat as a board. My last upgrade was a preamp and I lost some warmth but I gained air and detail.
I would think that if it ALL comes down to the room, and that without the room, NOTHING else matters, I wouldn't hear the difference between tubes that I like and those that I don't like and lifeless source material versus some of my better sounding SACDs and red-book CDs.
@immatthewji understand how you feel. I too have the components and synergy to overcome my room and I’m happy. Yes having a good acoustic room is great but that will never happen for some of us. So the better components and synergy the better the sound I get.
I created my own room, it takes me 2 years of experiments...
A serious acoustician cannot make it without a month of work ...
Paying a company to do it is not serious ...
They will not seat there and listening ; they will run a program , put many panels on the walls and called it job done ...
I am not surprized by your post ...
But concluding about this that room acoustics dont matter so much is completely wrong ..
Acoustics ask for experiments time , company sell panels and dont have time nor ears ...A room /system is specific in his needs...No easy formula is optimal....
I and several fellow audiophiles with good listening skills and systems have spent good money on treating our rooms with all manner of acoustic treatments. In two specific cases folks paid big money for a room acoustics company to come in and professionally treat the rooms. In the end, the rooms sounded better with all the “stuff “ taken out. I experienced the same thing about 13 years ago.
Honestly folks. Some of us can’t do a thing about our rooms. But we can work on the other areas. Better components , synergy , cabling. Picking the right speakers and speaker designs for the room you have. Some can change their rooms. But many can’t. But we can still have great sounding systems in the rooms we do have.
@mahgisteryou may disagree, but I stand by my experience and experiences. Also, like you, I have experimented for many years with room treatments and vibration control. Not a newbie at this by a long shot. Some rooms are just fine as is with furnishings, the particular speakers used and how they are placed. My examples are more than one off situations that did not work because the installers were not good at their craft. They are examples supporting the fact that room treatments are not a universal cure all or improvement.
I concur with your anecdote content : a room can be already relatively good , even if in my opinion it is the exception, and may needed less acoustic content than others, i concur with you on the fact that non professional acoustic treatment can become too heavy and detrimental; where we differ is in the fact that a completely dedicated optimal acoustic room is the same as a relatively good one ...
To reach some optimal for some ears ( the owner ears) and for specific system , this task ask for something ONLY a pro ascoustician generally can do , with esthetics and optimal results and at a very high cost because this is necessary to reach optimal high end results...
It is my experience after my heavy transformation of my past room with among other things a distributed grid of 100 Helmholtz variously tuned resonators of different size from few inches to 8 feet , an experiment impossible to do esthetically at low cost and in any living room ... Thats what i talked about speaking of optimal results and not only of relatively good results and about about the very few already good room which we must not conflate with optimal one ...
I only wanted in my post to make the point than the usual habit in audio threads of thinking that a room is "good" , which may be relatively true in a low % of room , for many reasons related to acoustic content, dimensions, geometry and topology , this habit is generally underestimating what is "good" means and what is optimal and what it means ...
Thats my point about the general importance of acoustics which is experienced by very few people , because no one transform his living room and not even his audio room in a MESS and and an unesthetical at low cost; or almost no one transform his dedicated room with a pro acoustician by re-design in it at 100,000 bucks esthetically; which is the cost for the job by a pro ...
Ask mike lavigne about the cost of his "optimal" room ...😁
Then you are not wrong in your post and i believe you because i experimented with it but we must not confuse a badly done acoustic with a mere relatively good one and this one with an optimal one ... There is three cases here not two ... And almost all rooms needed to be optimized ( 90 %) ... But most people knowing it or not, anyway live very well with relatively bad room , if not bad , then they live with relatively good room which is the minority case but very few live with optimized room ...
The problem is the general lack of experience with astonishing room and the underestimation of dedicated acoustics over costly upgrade of gear to compensate for a problem 90% of audiophiles cannot even imagine ...
How many people say what i say here , insisting on this difference and the crucial importance of acoustic ? Not many, most argue about a few walls panels , and those who did dont advocate for the extreme position i take ... I exagerate and i am wrong or i am right ...Pick your opinion...😁 It is ok ...
But one fact will not change , most people cannot and never could have experimented enough to know about this essential fact : acoustics rule ...This cost a lot of money way more than most high end system , if not, it makes a mess of the room save if you redesign it yourself with very good craftmanship in carpentry and in acoustics...It cost a lot of time , and almost no one not already retired can do it ... I was retired ...
My dedicated room at the end of this optimization process was an apparent looking mess for the eyes not for the ears ... 😁 My cost was few years of experiments and one year full time ( i am retired ) but i am not a carpenter nor am i very talented with my hand and i had no money ... But i learned what acoustics "means" ...
Acoustics is not the cherry on the gear cake at all, it is the reverse ; the system is the cherries and the icing on the cake itself (acoustics) ... Thats my truth ...The reverse of general audio forum truth ...
At the end i was so surprized by my results with the soundscape around the listening position , with a low cost system, that myself will not even believe it...Thats is optimal acoustic...Not just relatively good or wrong which is a fact almost always unbeknonwst to the owner because the potential of a dedicated room is very high ...
But this truth of mine is not a "good news" for most people ... Because most will never enjoy this fact ...Then it is not an appealing truth ...It is better to believe the marketing appeal to upgrade and pay for 200, 000 bucks gear system in a living room because marketing assure us that this is way "better" than a 100,000 bucks one in the same living room ... Suffice to read any audio forum to observe this "faith" reflecting the underestimation of acoustics....😊
I wish you the best new year for you and your family....
@mahgisteryou may disagree, but I stand by my experience and experiences. Also, like you, I have experimented for many years with room treatments and vibration control. Not a newbie at this by a long shot. Some rooms are just fine as is with furnishings, the particular speakers used and how they are placed. My examples are more than one off situations that did not work because the installers were not good at their craft. They are examples supporting the fact that room treatments are not a universal cure all or improvement.
@grannyringthis is why we have conversations like this. I know everyone can’t spend the money that I and some others have spent in their systems. But a lot of us have also educated ourselves along the way before we buy the expensive stuff. We enjoy relationships sometimes that allow us to hear before we buy. I have done that. My system is sublime to my ear in a room that is all over the place with flaws. But ny system has a great synergy. My dac, amplifier and cabling are from the same company it was built to work together. The dac is world class. It is musical but has 0 noise floor. It has a spacious soundstage with loads of air and detail and a slight warmth to its sound. It has great transparency and the musicians are layered properly. Music sounds live in a sense. The amp the same way with my dac. My speakers have a great build quality and technology in them that allow them to go get the notes. Some people diss the high end but when it is done right there are some things that some of the good companies do that in a ok room it sounds good but in a perfect room it would be sublime. Can you get a great sound at lower price points. Yes! But when you have the resources and you purchase reliable high end with good technology backing it. It is truly special. There is a lot of work and technology that reputable high end companies implement that is next level. All this can be done even when the room is bad. Now can you fix your room to maximize your sound absolutely. But if you don’t have good components in a great room it ain’t gonna do what some of these systems that are matched properly in the higher end can do. For example when a guy named Dave Baskin was alive he had a home theater cottage built for sound in the back of his property. He had it soundproof and had the high end company come in and place their components perfectly and actually used speaker setup technology. His system also had great synergy. It sounded so good I was in the audio matrix. The dude literally had to put me out I didn’t wanna leave. He had it all. Components, synergy, Great room acoustics and high technology and high end gear put together right. Socks were blown off! That sound is stuck in my head to this day and that was about 11 years ago. I truly learned what the audio matrix and nirvana was that day. He had to put me out like Dino on the Flinstones. Those are the experiences that I have had. Those are the things that I experienced . Some of the guys on this thread think that the buyers in the high end or gullible dimwits . That is a ridiculous assumption. Most of these guys in the high end are very successful in their careers. I am. I don’t sell audio as my main source of income. I run a firm. With that being said painting audio dealers as snake oil salesman and saying that the buyers are idiots for paying the prices is an arrogant I’m smarter than yall assumption that on its face is asinine. Guys that purchase high end equipment are independent business owners or have had great careers at whatever they do. They got there because they probably research the hell out of stuff before they buy it. Like I do. I’m sorry some of the guys that make comments on my thread. You can hear the disdain for the high end in their voices as they type their words. lol. But it is what it is. If you choose not to buy stuff that’s expensive fine. But it’s arrogant within itself to say that some of us that do just don’t know any better!
It would be interesting to have a survey to gather viewpoints on how we prioritize elements of system building. Since most "mortals" require this OR this decision making, rather than this AND this, it would be nice to gather options on where to place emphasis and/or investment.
There is a wealth of experience here.
Happy New Year. Hoping your year is starting out on a good note.
@mahgister, I certainly see the wisdom and truth of your statement below…
“But this truth of mine is not a "good news" for most people ... Because most will never enjoy this fact ...Then it is not an appealing truth ...It is better to believe the marketing appeal to upgrade and pay for 200, 000 bucks gear system in a living room because marketing assure us that this is way "better" than a 100,000 bucks one in the same living room ... Suffice to read any audio forum to observe this "faith" reflecting the underestimation of acoustics....😊”
Absolutely understand your perspective and personal experience. Well matched gear, including cabling, is another key to sonic bliss. It’s so interesting to me how a well chosen cable, in a position or two, can help snap a system into a subjective rightness. Goodness it all matters!
There many ways to walk the road, related to tastes, gear design, budget constraint, trade-off choices related to the gear and trade-off choices related to the embeddings controls choices but there is only one road through acoustics concepts and experiments...
Acoustics define sounds experience parameters, nevermind the other factors and choices...
And acoustics here is not mere few panels on the walls, and it is not even mere physical complete acoustic room controls for a system , it is more , it includes psychoacoustics basic concepts too ...
We cannot experience something we do not even imagine, and we cannot experience something we then cannot understand at all ...
Buying any piece of gear does not give us experience ... Only by luck and money it may and only may in some cases give a relatively good system at relatively high price...
Try to build one very good under 1000 bucks...Good luck! 😁 This is my bench test for knowledge ...
It is impossible without basic real knowledge in acoustics and in others aspects mechanical and electrical ....
And anyway some with very costlier one will say it is impossible period ! So much they vouch for gear design upgrades and price tag investment and nothing much else...😊
I vouch for acoustics concepts and the way to experience them by experimenting ...
It could be the room speakers relation , but it could be also with it speakers design or headphones acoustic improvements and modifications , it could be on top of that acoustics modifications of stereo system basic flaws ( BACCH filters and crosstalk etc ) ...
Then compared to that, gear upgrade are most of the times MINOR improvement ... It is the opposite in audio threads where upgrades are presentend ALWAYS as MAJOR improvement at very high cost... It is NOT EVEN WRONG ... Thats my point ...
Well @mahgister I agree with many of your points, but I sense you take your perspective too far and diminish other experiences and audio realities to severely.
@mahgister building a very good system under $1000 is easier than ever these days...I’ve put together quite a few for myself, family and friends...and +1 gr
Well @mahgister I agree with many of your points, but I sense you take your perspective too far and diminish other experiences and audio realities to severely.
Perhaps few with coslier system will think so that my claims contradict their uopgrades history ...
Not the majority of people with low budget will all think so though for which i claim that acoustical, electrical and mechanical embeddings controls matter much than a costlier upgrade...
And most people unable to take the time and unable to have the luxury to own a dedicated room will think as you too that i exagerate completely ...
But acoustic truth dont care about democracy or price tags proud owners ...
You are completely right ...My two last purchase cost me peanuts and are not junk ...
But i spoke about a TOP low cost system under 1000 bucks which will not be a mere stop-gap here compared to 10,000 bucks one ... it is IMPOSSIBLE to experience audiophile sound with active cheap speakers WITHOUT modifying them for example then knowing basic acoustics... MIne have cost me 100 bucks 12 years ago ( i disliked them for all this time till i modify them because anyway i did not have any other choices ) and they will sell 150 bucks today ... Try that ...
@mahgister building a very good system under $1000 is easier than ever these days...I’ve put together quite a few for myself, family and friends..
Acoustic truth does care about not introducing noise into the environment you wish to place treatments and embeddings. I am referring to signal noise that smears, perverts, and masks the audio signal. So the gear and tweaks audiophiles buy certainly play a role at reducing signal noise. Gear, modifications, tweaks, room treatments, vibration control, component matching, speaker placement, room construction, listening skills, subjective preferences and so much more all play a role in this passion. They all matter. How one comes to realize sonic contentment is a complex meshing of all of this. No one road is the universal way.
@mahgisterI have looked at your virtual system many, many times and what you have done is so remarkable and interesting. Your perspective is valuable and yet another important piece of the puzzle.
i was frustrated and with no money ... I am no more frustrated ...
You are very kind and patient with me ... Thanks ...
Happy near year ...
@mahgisterI have looked at your virtual system many, many times and what you have done is so remarkable and interesting. Your perspective is valuable and yet another important piece of the puzzle.
@grannyringthe story of how Hans Looman the owner of our company he and I met before at a show and the system he brought before he started his company was from manufacturers I knew that had worked together before. So when it didn’t sound right I was like I heard that system before. I knew it had synergy. I had a bag of cables I traveled with. THE CABLES WENT IN AND POW! The whole system changed! It opened up. The music. The air. The decay. Immaculate. That’s how we started on this journey 6 years ago! He took it upon himself to build equipment and cables so that the cables would never be a bottleneck again!
@grannyring@mahgisteri don’t minimize what @mahgisterhas said or done. You can get the most out of what you have that way. But the build quality and technology in the right higher end equipment is just on another level. All things being equal. Synergy wise. I had some pretty good classe stuff early on 15 years ago but I hear the veloce Ls1 which was a battery powered expensive tube pre amp. At that moment I realized there are levels in this audio game. The difference was jaw dropping. The equipment was just next level. Soundstage transparency and detail. 0 noise floor. Wowwww!
I fortunately accidentally bought a house with an exceptionally great audio space. I carefully populated it with the highest quality synergistic components with transparent (Transparent) wires that I could afford, and spent as much time as I could afford tweaking the system and the venue and have a great sounding system.
You work within the constraints. I have heard fantastic systems in rooms the size of walk in closets where careful choice of components and treatments produced incredible sound, ridiculously expensive systems carefully set up and less expensive, meticulously assembled systems.
Nobody nevermind any embeddings controls will transform a low cost design to a higher end design ...Period... 😁
But nobody can hope to create an optimally working system with no embeddings electrical mechanical and acoustical controls, paying high cost price without learning nor acoustics nor anything else, this is hopeless ...
This is what i learned...
And everybody can live with a MINIMAL acoustic satisfaction threshold once reached by good working embeddings and some modification with low cost gear ...
But if a minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold is not a stop-gap at all , it is a minimal threshold not a maximal one 😊... My peanuts cost system is more than good but it will be ridiculous and laughing stock indeed to compare it to any high end superior design ...
But superior design dont do miracles EITHER ( EVEN with the BACCH system 😊 because it gives immediately something that do not exist in stereo system but anyway the room acoustic must be well done )
Acoustic and electrical and mechanical embeddings controls do big improvement toward the true working potential qualities for any system at any price ....
@maghister you probably have done a great job maximizing what you have. But there is equipment that is just next level. My Infigo method 4 Dac for example uses the latest 9038 ess Sabre Dac chipset. The owner of our company worked with the chip inventor before. They have ways of limiting distortion built in to the build of the Dac while maintaining its musicality. Premium power supplies are used in the equipment. Everything has been researched to limit noise, distortion and crosstalk. We realized that the chip gives off heat and heat causes distortion. So mini heats sinks were built between the individual dac chips to limit that distortion caused in the second or third harmonics. There is a lot of technology parts and tried and proved implementation used in my Dac alone. Basic or other equipment is not going to give you that level of performance because you change your room. Is it expensive yes. But it took 2 whole years of work and a year worth research to develop it. A lot of trial and error was put into it. No matter how you set your room up. This thing with the right synergy is gonna sing regardless of what room it’s in. It’s going to wipe the floor with the entry level dacs period. It’s just built better all the way around. Sorry your room ain’t gonna beat the build quality and research that goes into a product like this. We have had dac shootouts with all of the similar cost no object products and we are held our own 100%. The Msb, lampiztor, wadax, Weiss, Nagra and the DCS. Look is it expensive yes. But the build quality of this type of gear as well as the technology and implementation is next level. Put this stuff in the perfect room with good synergy and it’s a wrap. There are just levels to everything. The Chevy ain’t gonna be a Lexus because the latter is just flat out built better with better parts, research and technology behind it. @mahgisternot minimizing what you have done. You make great points and have done an exceptional job with what you have but the room fixes all is part of the equation but with exceptional equipment in the right room and right synergy is where it’s at more than most. Even great components in a sub par room can still take you to bliss. Just my opinion!
You are totally right and i believe you without any doubt ...
But nothing i said negate the irreplaceable potential of any superior costlier design ...
As nothing replace embeddings controls ..
My only point is we can learn how to be happy with a minimal low cost system for a minimal acoustic satisfaction ... Here price dont matter , we must learn ...For maximal acoustic satisfaction just learning is not enough we must BUY the superior design... But BUYING it without learning how to embed it is a waste ... That is my point ...
@maghister you probably have done a great job maximizing what you have. But there is equipment that is just next level. My Infigo method 4 Dac for example uses the latest 9038 ess Sabre Dac chipset. The owner of our company worked with the chip inventor before. They have ways of limiting distortion built in to the build of the Dac while maintaining its musicality. Premium power supplies are used in the equipment. Everything has been researched to limit noise, distortion and crosstalk. We realized that the chip gives off heat and heat causes distortion. So mini heats sinks were built between the individual dac chips to limit that distortion caused in the second or third harmonics. There is a lot of technology parts and tried and proved implementation used in my Dac alone. Basic or other equipment is not going to give you that level of performance because you change your room. Is it expensive yes. But it took 2 whole years of work and a year worth research to develop it. A lot of trial and error was put into it. No matter how you set your room up. This thing with the right synergy is gonna sing regardless of what room it’s in. It’s going to wipe the floor with the entry level dacs period. It’s just built better all the way around. Sorry your room ain’t gonna beat the build quality and research that goes into a product like this. We have had dac shootouts with all of the similar cost no object products and we are held our own 100%. The Msb, lampiztor, wadax, Weiss, Nagra and the DCS. Look is it expensive yes. But the build quality of this type of gear as well as the technology and implementation is next level. Put this stuff in the perfect room with good synergy and it’s a wrap. There are just levels to everything. The Chevy ain’t gonna be a Lexus because the latter is just flat out built better with better parts, research and technology behind it. @mahgisternot minimizing what you have done. You make great points and have done an exceptional job with what you have but the room fixes all is part of the equation but with exceptional equipment in the right room and right synergy is where it’s at more than most. Even great components in a sub par room can still take you to bliss. Just my opinion!
@jastralfudeep 333 would have you believe all dealers are blood sucking neophytes. That’s just not true. I literally allow the client to try before they buy. That’s why you gotta be careful with some of the posters here. They just go nutty once they see a high price then they jump on their soapboxes with their bullhorns. Jeez!
I think the bullhorns and brashness come from folks tired of trying to find ways to instill the broad concept of how the word “test” can be (and oft is) misused when discussing anecdotal (personal) sampling that doesn’t conform to any measures established in ethology or experimental design - measures that’ve been defined for decades.
”Belief” that certain expensive cables or unquantifiable system synergy can solve concepts of acoustical shortcomings in an infinitely variable music playback system should be no offense to anyone, as long as they’re not phrased in any way to suggest true research (properly replicated, free of bias, any other analytical assumptions met, repeatable). Indeed, belief is an unquantified faith in something that is not proven.
When the tone takes on one of factual evidence, folks who understand evidence in a scientific and/or legal sense might go object. It should be expected.
If some folks spend a bunch of their money for having it, but can’t be bothered to educate themselves on how the engineering of devices (e.g. audio cables) should not exclude rigorous experimental design-based testing to meaningfully support their worthiness, I for one cannot be bothered to care.
If a used care dealer dupes a single mom to pass off a hoopty for trying to get to work each day, 6-7 days a week, it should be a legal matter. If someone buys 4-5 figures’ worth of cables because they didn’t take (or pay attention in) a high school or uni science class and have enough spare time to concern themselves with invisible nuances in the music replay-iverse, not my concern. Except that sometimes it’s been fun to sit quietly and watch!
I think the bullhorns and brashness come from folks tired of trying to find ways to instill the broad concept of how the word “test” can be (and oft is) misused when discussing anecdotal (personal) sampling that doesn’t conform to any measures established ...
The "bullhorns and brashness" you mention seem to come mostly from measurementalists who dismiss with insult or a wave of the hand any empirical evidence that causes them the slightest discomfort. If they are "tired" of that evidence, perhaps this isn't the place for them.
long story short, rooms matter alot, often at least as much as the cumulative effect of all the equipment
but if you have a bad room, a lot can be done to make the listening experience fairly good, most notably minimizing room effects by going nearfield or semi nearfield
room treatments can help in some difficult rooms, but often a very bad/weird room just cannot be handled just by treatments
long story short, rooms matter alot, often at least as much as the cumulative effect of all the equipment
Exactly and it is my experience ...
but if you have a bad room, a lot can be done to make the listening experience fairly good, most notably minimizing room effects by going nearfield or semi nearfield
You are right for the "minimizing part...But even nearfield listening as you implicitly suggested ask for some acoustic treatment of the room to be optimized ...If you want a soundstage over the speakers in depth and encompassing the listener near field position for sure even in near listening you must put some reflective waves to good use .....
room treatments can help in some difficult rooms, but often a very bad/weird room just cannot be handled just by treatments
This is why in my "difficult" past room i used not only passive treatment with materials to reach a good ratio between dispersion , reflective areas and absorbing area and their location , but it was not enough ... I used ACTIVE mechanically tuned devices called Helmholtz resonators in a grid fashion all around the room to change the zone pressure distributions to my liking ...It was not esthetical , you needed a dedicated room but it cost me nothing , it was fun to experiment and the results were stunning ...A soundscape encompassing my listenin position at peanuts costs ...
I’m going to get straight to the point. A lot of us are plug in play. We can’t do anything to the room depending on your living and family situations. If you want to spend less you can. You can improve your room using a number og @mahgistersuggestions as well as many others. But at the end of the day. I been doing this a long time now. I want to get my hands of the best equipment I can afford. Some people spend on luxury cars. I like Audio and I’m going to use what I learned to seek out the best equipment, synergy and cabling possible. I will build my system on those foundations. I can’t do anything to my room. All I’m saying is that you can get great sound out of a bad room. You just got to pick the right things to get you there. My system will sound good almost anywhere you would probably put it. Do what makes you happy. If you don’t like spending on high end stuff then don’t. But based on what I’m experiences in my home environment I’m extremely happy with my set up. I will keep doing me. There is nothing like well designed gear that eliminates noise and distortions and is still musical. My journey has placed me at the point I’m at and I’m happy. I’m listening to some beautiful Ahmad Jamal as we speak. The piano sounds amazing!
It sometimes almost reads as if there is a prevailing school of thought here that is that if you don’t have an acoustically treated room it just doesn’t matter what gear you put in it because it is all going to sound bad.
I don’t have an acoustically tuned room, and I have no doubt that my system would sound better if I did have one, but I also know that even in a bad room I can hear that different components produce different quality of sound.
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