So we know the higher end preamps don’t include dacs and phono stages. Highly desirable noise free devices. I hear wonderful things about these preamps, Luxman, Accuphase, Audio Research, etc.
it depends on the room but if you’re good with the room, then yes for sure.
i went from Rotel preamp to rogue to Cary 98 then Cary 05 then arc 5se then finally audio research reference 40th anniversary.
the arc 40 is the best preamp I’ve ever owned and it’s hands down one of the best moves I’ve made
Joey! Did you do the Ultimate Upgrade and tube rolling on the Cary SLP-05? I had the Audio Research Reference 5SE and found that the Cary with the upgrade sounded better in every way. I haven’t compared it to the 40th Anniversary preamp or the Ref.10 though. Let me know your thoughts please.
I've read many on here saying no preamp is the best preamp.
I could not disagree more. I know it may not make sense, but adding a quality preamp brings realism and depth to the music. And I'm not talking about coloration. Something is lost in the interaction between a DAC going straight to the amp. I'm not a circuit designer and don't know exactly why this is, but it is a large difference in my testing with and without. BTW, I love my Wyred4Sound STP-SE hooked into my nCore-based March Audio amp.
Worth is a subjective question. Relative worth may be easier to deal with. I always ask the question "if i have $1000 to spend, where do i get the biggest benefit". That depends, basically, on where the biggest problems are. And its exactly why i'm leery of most expensive tweeks, including cables and similar doo-dads.
Speakers traditionally have the greatest compromises. Unfortunately you need not only money but tolerance for size to move up with speakers. IMO sources (turntables with carts) and DACs are also ripe for improvement. And both are fairly complex so it make sense. As i work on DAC designs, the number of small to medium pitfalls is large. power. grounding. Isolation. Filtering. Blah, blah. never-ending. The best amps and pre-amps ought to be nearing perfection. nearing, not there. Sadly, many are not. But the declining marginal returns are in full force over $2k for pre-amps IMO. Amps are more complex to answer since some speakers, in some rooms demand lots of power - and power you buy by the pound to a degree (transformers, output devices, heat sinks, and a chassis to hold all that heavy stuff!) Right now i have a prototype integrated making the rounds. Its ~ 40w/ch/8 ohms and is targeted to sell for $2000-2500 "depending". It has qualities where it is superior to and others where it is slightly inferior to, $7-11k worth of separates.
Now, nothing i design will "wow" anybody with lots of seductive distortion. That's not my thing. I want it to disappear, erring toward "never be obnoxious". So if what you want is a ton of euphonic harmonics, go for it, but that's a 'whole different kettle of fish. But the best answer is - listen and trust your ears. As a great sommelier once told me when i asked the best way to really learn about wine: "pop a lot of corks". Happy drinking. G
I'm not sure that it is accurate to say that a good preamp makes the sound better. It is probably more accurate to say that a really good preamp allows what was already there in the signal to get through better than a cheap one will. It is closer to the ideal "straight wire with gain"
Try borrowing a really good used preamp from a local dealer on the basis that you are interested in buying it if it improves your listening experience, and see what you find out.
And it doesn't (necessarily) have much to do with whether the amplification is solid state or tube (I run one system with each and find them both to be very good).
Shindo Monbrison changed my life. I could barely afford it even used but have never looked back. It added richness and texture that I didn’t know I was missing.
There is an Audio Research LS2B MKII with remote on eBay that would probably smoke anything new under $6K. I've had mine 28 years and finally gave up trying to shoot out something better a few years ago. Right tube and cables and it's really breath taking...... amazing sound stage and imaging.
About two years ago I got a very good deal on a used Soulution 720 which includes the phono stage, and is a world-class pre-amp. I can honestly say that this was one best system upgrades I have ever done, and that is factoring in the cost. When I consider the value I got for selling my separate preamp and phonostage on Audiogon, this was a 4-figure upgrade and not an unreasonable expense. The improvement on all of my sources was tremendous, but the phono upgrade ended up far better than I had expected. To the OP's question, I think that the right high end preamp can make a VERY large difference in system performance. However, it depends entirely on system matching and what specific role the preamp is expected to play. That is my experience at least...
I never tried dac direct however have upgraded from a older Krell preamp to a CJ GAT 2 with everything being the same, big difference in sound; even wifey noticed and that’s saying ALOT.
so many preamps to chose from. A crap shoot. Most have no clue what they are buying. Minimal info on internal build. BLINDFAITH!!
a few preamps out there that seem to have more widespread acceptance. And overpriced of course.
it’s all about the mix you bring to the situation. Preamp performance varies quite abit, depending on mix of components. What a mess trying to decide. Horrifying!! How can anyone make money selling this stuff??
My solution was Lyngdorf. No need for an upstream DAC. After years of SS and tube pre/power this is by far the best solution I found. My goal has always been to find the amplification system that acts like the proverbial wire with gain. Adding no sound characteristic of its own. The Lyngdorf is remarkably closer to that than any other hardware I've ever owned or auditioned. Even more remarkably, it's analog inputs are just as clean. You will hear what's upstream. If you like second order distortion, use a tube phono preamp. In fact not having to invest thousands in a DAC will allow you better upstream devices. Win-Win.
The breakpoint where the price of a preamp can no longer be justified is probably around $2k or so. Anything over that, you will not hear the difference :-)
The comments about additional pieces can only degrade and digital volume controls are all that is needed are just for those systems where they tried it and liked it. I have done everything from using the tape out of a Superphon basic back in the day to bypass the analog volume controls to switching the digital vs analog of the Mytek in and out to using the MSB with its resistor ladder array. It all depends on the surrounding equipment and how they interact. Currently the MSB dac goes into Atmasphere MP-3 with NOS tubes and into either RM200 or Marsh A400s or hotrodded Acoustat TNT200, all balanced connections. Even then, the power still gums up the works some days. Oh well, when it is good it is really sweet! So in the end, you just have to try it to see if it helps!
@georgehifi, could this be harmonics ... ??? ... "color it"
Yes maybe more like the "harmonic distortions" from the tubes themselves, which some like😏
Like I said before, they can’t make what’s coming out of the source better (add additional music content that’s not there), they can just color it with distortions and or microphonics.
Sources today have enough output to drive any poweramps to full power and more, this is why Nelson Pass said this.
“We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.
Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.
Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.
What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp.”
I used a Marantz AV-8802A pre/processor as my preamp and home theater system processor. I knew it was a very good theater processor but I also knew there was better hi-fidelity I should have for my musical, 2-channel play time. I had already changed my amplifier from Adcom to Balanced Audio Technology (that alone was a revelation in sonic superiority to what I had). I researched further and landed on the Balanced Audio Technology VK-33SE preamp. It made sense as those units were designed/engineered to work properly with one another. WOW! was that an upgrade in sonic superiority. The soundstage and imaging became so lifelike and dimensional. Yes, a top-end preamp does make a very significant difference for high fidelity music reproduction. Do your research to find a good match in preamp & amp and you will be rewarded very well in musical enjoyment. Note; the BAT preamp does have the capability to change a source input to a fixed "unity gain", basically a pass-through. This allows you to use an external pre/processor for your theater enjoyment while still using the main amp to your main speakers and not having to change any cable connections. Very simple, convenient, and very nice. Best of luck to you in your quest.
unfortunately a digital volume control progressively leads to a loss of resolution as the available bits get truncated. As long as you stay above say 80% of max volume, your statement applies; below, not so much
The music had structure and substance I never heard.
You probably heard tube microphonics/euphonics. If you put that same source "direct" into a pair of very expensive headphones you will get the sound more similar to the passive pre than the tube. A tube cannot make music it can only amplify and in this case "color it"
I used passive preamps for many years. Then one day I decided to check out an active. I decided on an Audible Illusions. I was stunned and amazed! The music had structure and substance I never heard. I now have upgraded to an Atma-Sphere MP-3. Pricey but well worth it.
The only case where I could think of mismatch issues between DAC, attenuator and power amplifier are impedance related: low output impedance on the DAC, high impedance inputs on the power amp or very poor choice of interconnects. This is however an unusual constellation that one normally needn‘t be overly concerned about. Where you do get a problem is when you rely on a DAC‘s digital attenuator; for the avoidance of doubt all digital output levels should be set to max. In other words: an analogue attenuator or volume control in the DAC is always needed
Given high output voltages of modern DACs, the Pre becomes a glorified attenuator.
This was a common viewpoint a few years ago and continues to work well for some, but others who have tried running their systems DAC-direct or through a passive preamp
have perceived a loss of dynamics and tonal density and have since gone back to using preamps or buffers. If you take a look at my post from noon yesterday, you can read about other factors that affect sonic performance with/without a preamp that go beyond simply having adequate voltage to drive the amplifier. BTW, digital becomes analogue when it comes out of the DAC.
Given high output voltages of modern DACs, the Pre becomes a glorified attenuator. The same result is achieved by either buying a DAC with analogue volume control or using a passive attenuator. There is really no good reason to use a Pre in digital playback. Analogue however is a different matter...
Some more really excellent posts about how a quality Pre amp with system synergy absolutely enhances an already fine rig. But to my point about not being able to site examples of science, I guess I meant that it is not easy 'to measure' the difference. Nay sayers seem to stick to this defense; 'if you can not measure it, I can not hear it' and 'bits are bits' etc. And, quite possibly, they can not hear it! To me, measurements are important, but hearing is believing.
A great pre-amp can improve the entire system. Especially in hi-end systems. It was a day and night experience to drive my power amp with my DAC vs a matching pre-amp. The power amp has such a low impedance that the DAC literally collapsed on it. The DAC was never able to play loud. The pre-amp on the other hand can drive the power amp until the speakers melt.
In a blind test no preamp can improve upon no preamp.
That’s an interesting claim. Have you actually conducted such blind tests? If so, please provide details and include the other components used in the test system. Then perhaps we can tell you where you are going wrong.
There are those who don’t believe that a top notch preamp can make a difference. To them, they haven’t heard the difference to make it worth it. Same goes for all bits are bits and cables are cables. Fine.
When you actually do get to hear the difference in your system, everything will click. I happen to love certain well executed integrateds but in my room, my speakers, my cables, etc a fine pre and a fine amp surpasses.
certainly, awesome very advance expertise you share herein. Soooo much brain energy being deployed. This is complex stuff requiring many advanced degrees.
speaks to a need to improve the marketing efforts of high end hifi devices. Basically, a large number have no clue what they are buying. They are comforted with expert reviews that seem helpful, and spending more money for incremental perceived value. Choosing a preamp is not easy!!! Marketing materials are horrifyingly tough to make sense of. As long as boxes are built like tanks, weigh more and look pretty.
Many have posted how a quality preamp improved their systems. None will be able to tell you the science. To many of us, It just sounds better..
I agree using a preamp (either a unity-gain buffer or an active preamp with gain) sounds better than passive options (and I have owned multiple resistor-based passives, TVC passives, and my current DAC that can directly drive the amplifier using a volume control implemented by adjusting the reference voltage.... out of the signal path).
Some here have actually shed light on "the science" related to the improvements of active circuitry between the source and amplifier.
The issue is not just a factor of having enough voltage to drive the sensitivity of the amplifier but is also related to driving the interconnect cable, impedance matching, and more. If you search these forums, there are informative posts by knowledgeable folks such as (the late and well-liked) @almarg, and @atmasphere the long-time owner/designer of amplifiers and preamplifiers of the same name. Nelson Pass has also commented on the subject in his comments about the Pass B1 Buffer Preamp: https://www.passdiy.com/project/preamplifiers/b1-buffer-preamp
Wading through the many "passive vs. active" posts here could lead you to some science-based information, but would be time consuming. Below are some comments by @atmasphere on the subject of why active circuitry between the source and amplifier is beneficial:
The reason to use an active line stage is to reduce coloration. The coloration can be caused by the cables and the math that derives therefrom (bandwidth limitations, increased output impedance of the source and thus the impedance driving the amplifier).
Gain may not be needed, but buffering the input and output of the volume control so that the source and amp see a constant impedance is. In this way the setting of the volume control may not also act like a sort of tone control.
The thing is, if you do your design homework, the distortion and bandwidth limits of the active line stage can be much better than those of the source itself and if you do your engineering homework, its possible to insure that the kinds of distortion it does make are of the type to which the ear isn't particularly sensitive.
@mikelavigne really said it all in his informative post. Not much more one could add to his post based on his considerable experience. I have also come to the exact same conclusion. Well said Mike!
I agree with most of the other, a preamp can make a huge difference. I went from a Rogue Cronus integrated with a nice tube sound to Belles amp and Audio Illusions preamp. the amp provided all the umph and power I was missing but the preamp (tubed) brought that tube sweetness and sound stage that I love. So, yes I believe they do make a difference. SS or tube and cost will be your initial marks. read and get knowledgeable. listening is imp if possible. I bought mine blind but from credible source that also own speakers like mine. Be aware that some preamps have extra features like MM/MC. that could be handy down the line. Happy hunting!
So we know the higher end preamps don’t include dacs and phono stages. Highly desirable noise free devices. I hear wonderful things about these preamps, Luxman, Accuphase, Audio Research, etc.
Are they as good as represented?
there is no one size fits all answer to these two questions. the first question is whether a high end preamp is worth it.
up to a certain investment point in a total system, a preamp holds you back. this is because a stand alone active preamp adds a layer of interconnects and power cords and noise. at lower levels of quality those artifacts are bigger than the dynamic additions the stand alone preamp adds. you are better off using an analog preamp in a dac and eliminating a preamp and tasking that budget elsewhere. the tipping point for this question is not definable; it will depend on the level of gear you are using, if you are using multiple sources, and whether your dac preamp can handle the source switching.
past a certain point of system investment and performance the stand alone preamp takes you further. but it will need quality ancillaries to be at it’s best.
at the highest system performance levels stand-alone active preamps are not only worth it; with very rare and expensive exceptions they are essential.
the other variable is the quality of the preamp in a dac you might choose. for instance; i own the MSB Select II dac; which has a passive preamp inside it that will surpass many/most active stand alone preamps. and also it’s capable of accepting a source input so can be used with a phono stage. it it a remarkably capable preamp; but......the MSB Select II is hideously expensive. it takes my also quite expensive darTZeel 18NS preamp to surpass the MSB Select II passive, and then only by a small margin. if i was digital ’only’ i would not be using my dart preamp.
the second question you ask (not directly) is whether a high end preamp can have phono stages included. my dart pre has very fine phono stages (2 of them), yet performs at a high level. it is the resident preamp in Michael Fremer’s system too. and there are other fine high end preamps with internal phono stages. so ultimate preamp performance is not exclusive to those without phono stages.
I think you need a decent preamp in any system. I used to have an Audio Research Hybrid Preamp in the early nineties and for my DAC I have the Wadia Digital. I loved my Audio Research until it broke after three years of use. While looking for a replacement or trying to have my preamp repaired locally, I used my Wadia Digital which has a volume controller temporarily thru my Krell amp. The sound was not as warm with the DAC preamp as my Hybrid Audio Research so I ended up going for the newer products. Now my Preamp is solid state now which is a NuForce and I also switched my DAC to the Benchmark unit . My Wadia is still in use in my bedroom system . So the answer is a good preamp is vital to a good system and better as a stand alone than a preamp with DAC.
IMHO.... It has probably made the most significant change in systems I have owned in the past 35 years. 1980 Something... DQ-20 speakers, Adcom GFA 555, Amp GFA 565 preamp SOTA sapphire TT .. I went from the Adcom GFA 565 to a CJ Premiere 2. I was completely blown away didn’t need to do an A.B. test...That was the catalyst that put me on the quest for Audio Nirvana. YES !!!!!
First- one premise made by the OP is incorrect- phono stages are not noise free. Some are very quiet but none are dead silent. Next, I’ve been messing around in this audio world since the 1970’s. Everything makes a difference and a great preamp can make a system and a dud of a preamp can break a system. More so, I believe, than can different amps.
Many posts saying hi-end preaamps improve sound. One post saying 'why', surely the additional circuitry cannot improve the signal it is fed with. Doesn't it just add noise? Or does it add some aspect to the sound that these posters find pleasing? Can somebody who understands the tech please tell me.
Many have posted how a quality preamp improved their systems. None will be able to tell you the science. To many of us, It just sounds better.. Bascom King, in his interview on inserting a preamp, states "the music is more compelling and real" Compelling and Real. I don't think we will ever measure these qualities, but I know I can hear it, or at least I am convinced I am, and convinced enough to own a nice pre amp.
Surely its not just more components adding more ’noise’ - its a question of WHICH sort of components and WHICH sort of circuit implementation, no? Maybe a drastic example of my own, a run of the mill mid/low-fi Rotel preamp I’d replaced by a Levison no. 326S preamp. The difference like day and night. Maybe hard to believe - but that’s what can happen, and I’m pretty sure will happen - so long you own speakers, amp etc. that will match the ’new’ setup. Cheap shoebox speakers and or low-fi amp will possibly just paste over the difference. So as always it’s ’horses for courses’. And the best expensive cable will NOT make any difference with a low/mid-fi preamp. Tried that of course too. Nada. M. 🇿🇦
YES. When I first plugged in the Audio Research SP-3 pre-amp in 1974, in my shop, I had a true revelation in how systems can sound.
Obviously, in the many years since then pre-amps have evolved and even improved somewhat. I suggest you work with your local dealer and audition as many as he carries IN YOUR ROOM to find the one YOU like best.
It will be as much a revelation to you as it was to most of the rest of us who have been down this road before.
This is not to say that there are not some SS pre-amps that are very good, because of course there are. However, the one that sounds best IN YOUR ROOM is the one you need to purchase and be delighted with in your system.
Many posts saying hi-end preaamps improve sound. One post saying 'why', surely the additional circuitry cannot improve the signal it is fed with. Doesn't it just add noise? Or does it add some aspect to the sound that these posters find pleasing? Can somebody who understands the tech please tell me.
I noticed a difference going from a NAD preamp to a Don Sachs. A little in the dynamics and a little in the delicacy. Put it together and tou get a little better sound.
And I can vouch for Primaluna. Running the Don Sachs into a Primaluna Evo400 power amp is a great combo.
Totally worth it if you have other good things in the chain.
Give Prima Luna a look. It was a noticeable immediately. So much so, I thought there may have been something wrong in the preamp it was replacing...Wasn’t the case, It just sounded wonderful...
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