So we know the higher end preamps don’t include dacs and phono stages. Highly desirable noise free devices. I hear wonderful things about these preamps, Luxman, Accuphase, Audio Research, etc.
This thread is unnecessarily long: assuming no highly unusual impedance miss match there is no conceivable reason for a separate preamp in a digital reproduction chain: additional cabling and circuits for no gain (pardon the pun)
How true, but it’s like talking to the deaf, but there are those that feel the need to color their sound with an expensive bandaid fix by adding a preamp with their added coloration/distortions, because there’s something else they don’t like in their systems when it goes direct from source to poweramp with no preamp. They may as well buy a 4 way tone control like the Schiit Loki. https://www.schiit.com/products/loki
This threat is unneccesarily long: assuming no highly unusual impedance miss match there is no conceivable reason for a separate preamp in a digital reproduction chain: additional cabling and circuits for no gain (pardon the pun)
Mr. Pass apparently believes there is sometimes a need for a preamp
Yes, and I've also said this, as I said in my second last post when the impedances are mismatched, but I also said 99% of the time this is not an issue.
I doubt he would manufacture the $17,500 XP-32 three-chassis reference preamp if he didn't believe it added something
It can only add coloration/distortion to the sound of the source, I ask you why not hear what the sound of the source is by going direct, then if you don't like it, don't spend $17k to color/distort it. Change it for a better source. Quote: Ivor Tifenbrun (Linn LP12) "It all starts at the source get that right and the rest is going to follow" And I'll add to that get it wrong, and you chase your tail looking for the right preamp to color the problem, as they all sound different.
@georgehifi You have made us all aware of your opinion on the subject of preamps but I thought the readers here might benefit from seeing the whole Nelson Pass quote. Mr. Pass apparently believes there is sometimes a need for a preamp or buffer, for the reasons he stated in the quote, or simply because some people believe it sounds better with a preamp in their system. I get that Pass is a businessman but he is also somebody who has never been afraid to march to the beat of his own drum so I do not buy that the only reason he designs and manufactures preamps is for people who want glitz. I doubt he would manufacture the $17,500 XP-32 three-chassis reference preamp if he didn't believe it added something positive to the sound of his amplifiers in more than 1 percent of systems. I have no interest in a technical debate as my observations on the subject were already posted on this thread on October 25, at 12:02pm.
Glad to hear Pass agrees with me. Now if I could only afford any of his equipment....
Yes well he is a "business man", and does make preamps, there’s money to be made there also, that’s just what you pay for knowledge and you’ve got to say if your a "glitz queen" they do look the part.
I preferred his older Threshold poweramp circuit designs, when he used bi-polar output devices. Mosfets are good if you only use N channel top and bottom (but he doesn’t and it’s difficult), because then both top and bottom N Mosfets can give current, but the problem is the P channel doesn’t it’s always weaker, so a conventional push/pull complimentary l N and P channel Mosfet amp can’t give the current into low impedances like a NPN/PNP bi-polar can.
There are reasons many like what they hear through a preamp (or a unity gain buffer) better than through no preamp or through a passive.
Let’s hear your technical reasons Mitch on this.
If you quote someone you need to put before it Quote:Nelson Pass you still have quite a few minutes to correct your post.
And you don’t understand, today there is 99% of the time NO impedance issues, unless you have one of those stupid power amps that are 10kohm or less input impedance, then not even tube preamps will drive them no matter how expensive they are.
@georgehifi You forgot to post the rest of Pass' thoughts on the subject:
Is impedance matching an issue? Passive volume controls do have to make a trade-off between input impedance and output impedance. If the input impedance is high, making the input to the volume control easy for the source to drive, then the output impedance is also high, possibly creating difficulty with the input impedance of the power amplifier. And vice versa: If your amplifier prefers low source impedance, then your signal source might have to look at low impedance in the volume control.
This suggests the possibility of using a high quality buffer in conjunction with a volume control. A buffer is still an active circuit using tubes or transistors, but it has no voltage gain – it only interposes itself to make a low impedance into a high impedance, or vice versa.
If you put a buffer in front of a volume control, the control’s low impedance looks like high impedance. If you put a buffer after a volume control, it makes the output impedance much lower. You can put buffers before and after a volume control if you want.
The thing here is to try to make a buffer that is very neutral. Given the simple task, it’s pretty easy to construct simple buffers with very low distortion and noise and very wide bandwidth, all without negative feedback.
There are reasons many like what they hear through a preamp (or a unity gain buffer) better than through no preamp or through a passive.
Consider ignoring the "If You can’t Measure it"..."Only Trust Blind Testing" posts and LISTEN....
That’s just it you can measure it, and hear it. Going direct is even better again than the quote below by Nelson Pass, as there’s one less set of interconnects and a volume pot in the signal path, when going direct.
Nelson Pass:
“We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us
need or want. At least 10 db more.
Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around
9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a
subsequent gain stage can make it back up.
Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an
input selector and a volume control.
What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these
simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors –
just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care
for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly
heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting
psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active
preamp.”
When I found that my German Physiks speakers sounded better with a Class D amp than my Krell, I removed the preamp and feed the MiniDSP streamer digital feed direct to the amp. This eliminates an unnecessary DAC and ADC cycle- and sounds wonderful.
cerberus79 - As far as I know, any signal coming in to a box via interconnect cable is processed in some way and goes out of the box differently. Even if it is just going through the interconnects, the sound changes. Less processing is better (cleaner, although some people like their sound colored a certain way - I prefer accurate sound as the artist/producer/sound mixer intended). That's why not using a bass and treble knob gives more accurate sound and equalizers sound bad. It's a case of less is more. Also, a switchable amp is for all intents and purposes an integrated amp. It has to be switchable (by definition) since you are listening to two sources. That's the tradeoff of the Sutherland box - it is a phono stage only and goes straight to a power amp. No other sources are accessible to that amp without unplugging some cord and plugging it somewhere else.
@itsjustme - good to know. what is an RIAA? If it is some kind of processing of the signal, it defeats the purpose. If not, are you a manufacturer of products or a tinkerer building things for your own enjoyment?
my current system consists of Musical Fidelity M6PRX amp and M6PRE. I am also using a Mytek Brooklyn Dac + and PS Audio phono stage. Both the Dac and Phono stage have preamps and the M6PRX amp has switchable inputs. I took the preamp out of the system and am running the Dac and phono straight to the amp. It sounds very good and I tried it for several weeks but I will be putting the Pre back in simply because with the pre it sounds "more musical" to me. Hard to describe, both are very good but with the Pre it just sounds right. This may be a dumb statement but doesn't every component deconstruct and reconstruct the signal ?
Benchmark LA4 Line stage device sounds interesting to simplify whatever a stereo preamp does. For streaming only, seems ideal and wonder about amp matching issues. Wish it came with a ht bypass.
Not going to dig out the references, but I used the Lamms as an example bc reviewers in Absolute Sound, Stereophile, and several other journals have said it—repeatedly—about every iteration of the Lamm SET products. I chose the Lamm example bc they have relatively high THD graphs and pros said they sound better than pretty much everything else out there.
I was trying to make a point with extremes. A point which you can substitute your favorite amp in place of the Lamms. The thrust of my argument, I believe, will still hold true. No one can argue your perception or argue how any piece of equipment makes you feel. But, with respect to the example I’ve chosen, the Lamm SETs, it’s really not fair to discount what a great majority of reviewers, reviewers who are paid to review gear, have said about a unit publicly and in major journals. You certainly are free to disagree about their opinions, but still...
I don't think you need a preamp in a digital/streaming system. You just need an attenuuator to "pre-attenuate" the signal. If you want the best attenuation, the Benchmark LA4 is about as clean and transparent as it gets.
That said, if you try several linestages, you may find one that produces a deep emotional response when you hear music played through it. But I don't think money relates directly to finding that magic, or that the linestage is objectively better than others. It's all experiential.
In my case, it was a Modwright 36.5 with a NOS Mullard in the power supply. Loved it in the first fifteen seconds and ever since. Wouldn't let it go. More distortion? I'll trump that objective card with pure pleasure and a smile of musical bliss.
Lamm ML2.2 SETs; a unit that the vast majority of professional reviewers regard as among the very best sounding amplifiers on the planet.
And that very debatable also, I heard the Lam’s driving the very easy load of Genesis 5.3 mids and tops only, (as the have active bottom end) and an old stereo Classe DR25 made the Lam’s sound lazy with less transparency and detail.
Obviously there isn’t a randomized, blindfolded study published on my supposition. My point is that the “distortion” straw man set up in previous posts is not, in all cases, wedded to the effect on the listener’s ear in real life. So, I chose to make an example at the extremes. Thanks to today’s technology, you can buy a receiver at Best Buy tonight for $300 having gaudier distortion numbers than the Lamm ML2.2 SETs; a unit that the vast majority of professional reviewers regard as among the very best sounding amplifiers on the planet.
Not really sure what the “distortion” argument is. If you look at the very best sounding amplifiers, e.g., the Lamm ML 2.2s, the THD numbers don’t approach many of the solid state designs... But, there aren’t many folks (in a blindfolded test) who’d take a 0.001THD amp over, say, a Lamm SET With much higher THD numbers.
@itsjustme - no - I was talking about going straight from a phono stage to a power amp. Basically a one input preamp with that input being phono. Output to a power amp (not integrated). Same amount of cables as if the power amp was integrated, but eliminating the integrated's preamp switching circuitry. Sutherland's philosophy seems to be take out whatever you can in search of a straight line connection.
@lowtubes - who wouldn't value purity and tonality?
Ah the "great preamp vs no preamp" question. So how can anything be better than zero distortion? Its tough, but possible in one of three ways.
1. It adds a euphonic distortion that you like.. nothing wrong with this, its what a Piano’s sounding board does.
But why turn it into something else again with more colorations, it’s not what the maker of that piano specifically wanted you to hear. "Otherwise he may of added a tube sound board🤦♂️" and then called it a synthesizer instead of a piano.😏
Is anyone aware of these types of components, and have you heard them, and are any available at a more reasonable price level?
Funny, if you are asking about an integrated amp, with a direct plug-in RIAA option, it's my current design project. (also a direct plug in discrete headphone amp for "personal audio". Moving slowly due to other "paying the bills" projects. On the other hand it is (targeted to be...) fully remote, in part because the approach i am taking ought to simplify the signal path down to a pair of resistors. And i want remote capability and presume others do too.
Target is ~$2500 + RIAA. Not sure if you call that reasonable. And, of course, i don't count pricing o performance chickens until they hatch. Could be a colossal dud - but the basic unit, sans remote capabilities, is floating around getting independent appraisals. SO far, so good compared to ~ $10k and up combinations. yep simpler is (generally) better. One caveat, as a noted above, all that assumes that the simplified system remains properly impedance matched between stages and operates within its optical range. This is not always true. G
What makes them worth it? What qualities, preferably not expressed in purely subjective terms, makes a high end preamp that? If I were to observe that a well designed $300 DIY preamp was indistinguishable in group blind testing from a Halcro DM10, and actually measured better, what would your response be?
Emergingsoul, Im not familiar with the Mac and AR preamps you mentioned above. I would seek out a online McIntosh community of owners and get their opinion on the c1100 and same for the Audio Research of community owners on their take for the ref 6se. I’ve collected stuff throughout the yrs. I have a few of extremely well regarded preamps because I chose to pick up a few of the best picks from audiophile friends that they’ve heard. Each one of my pre’s has its own unique character, but a thing that I have noticed that separates a reference preamp from a very good pre is the size of the presentation. A truly reference preamp is gonna be EXTREMELY open to the point where one cannot detect its boundaries and it will throws a gigantic soundstage with great dynamics. So as you’re evaluating preamps, I would take note of its openness. It should sound like there are no walls or boundaries to the presentation. This should not only be evaluated with loud playing or certain tracks, but most importantly the music should have absolutely no boundaries even at low level and this should be evident on all the different types music played.
I actually do both - main system is a Benchmark DAC1 and Sonic Frontiers phono stage into a BAT VK51 SE (the 6H30 tube is remarkable!). Second system is a Benchmark DAC1 HDR directly into an Audible Allusions amp. The pre is important in my main system for buffering the phono stage. Overall, having the pre is better, and I only don't use one in the second system out of convenience.
My challenge is deciding between a McIntosh c1100 vs audio research ref 6se. Thoughts are welcome. Why have you pursued such a large volume of hardware? So much expertise, and great it’s being shared. I am hoping to make this a final purchase and go into retirement from my pursuit of overpriced audio equipment, all links in my chain will be quite strong at this point.
if you must have a preamp, look at a used Graaf 13.5b II. at least you‘ll have a balanced connection to the amp out of it. it still won‘t get you remote control, though. i
Hello emergingsole, I’ve been in this hobby coming on 30yrs and I’ve owned a ton of preamps, amps, speakers, cables, etc. So I’m coming from experience of buying a lot of components In search of great sound. Many time I’ve been swayed by reviewers and audiophiles along the way. At times a reviewer would give a component an excellent (A+) review, and rightfully so, the piece deserves it, but in comparison to a better piece, I realized that the 1st A+ piece wasn’t as good as the reviewer claimed. Newer definitely does not mean it will be better. Anyone who says this doesn’t really understand this hobby. I’m fortunate, that as I was owning many preamps throughout the years, I had hardcore “seasoned” audiophiles friends who helped me. I presently own 4 great preamps. To refer to one that I have now for about 8 yrs is a Audio Research SP11 Mk 11. This preamps is really a separator from the pack. It competes with stuff in the big $ range. I really didn’t want to mention a specific component because there are so many “reference” grade preamps other than the SP 11 that are floating around. The point is, you need to find the right one for you. Now in regards to the question, preamp or no preamp? I’ve found that a well designed preamp can compliment a system with dynamics and scale. But a “no preamp” setup works well for many that value purity and tonality. You decide what’s right for you. Best advice I can give, go to local audio club meetings. Make some new “seasoned” friends.
The most direct connection from source to sound will give you the least distortion. Every time that I have simplified the signal path in my system, the sound has improved.Getting rid of an equalizer, simpler preamp, etc.
If an integrated amp has the same circuitry as its separates, I can't see how it wouldn't sound better than separates of the same model level. You eliminate the interconnects.
If you're talking about a vinyl only system, the phono stage is more important than the preamp, which should be essentially a switching and volume box. I have heard of a phono stage that can be directly plugged into an amp with no other input options, It has a volume control on it with no remote. Simplicity and direct connection. I didn't want to spend that kind of investment (I think it's around $16K from Sutherland- which is what he uses), but that sounds like Utopia for a vinyl only guy like me.
Is anyone aware of these types of components, and have you heard them, and are any available at a more reasonable price level?
Ah the "great preamp vs no preamp" question. So how can anything be better than zero distortion? Its tough, but possible in one of three ways.
1. It adds a euphonic distortion that you like.. nothing wrong with this, its what a Piano's sounding board does. 2. Its gain allows other components to work within their ideal range 3. It provides needed impedance matching So is not crazy, but in an otherwise well balanced and engineered system (huge caveat in real life) its a tall order I use one. Of course i have prototypes stuffed everywhere :-) G
Hi-end preamps absolutely make a big difference. Sorry to inform you but I’ve found that a great preamp will sound much better than a very good preamp. Now the right question to ask, which are the great preamps. You cannot go by price as that can be very misleading. I personally found that the best way for me to find a top performing component was to ask die-hard friends of mine that been in this hobby for AT LEAST 30 YRS for their top picks.
Paul McGowan used to think that the best preamp is no preamp, i.e. only level control. He's a convert. He's a firm believer that "a great preamp is essential. Its contribution to overall sound quality cannot be ignored."
Look no further than the Audio Illusions Modulus 3B w the Curl MC phono stage. I’ve tried a lot of the above pre amps, and the M3B is, by far, the best for the money (did someone say best?). Disclosure: Currently running Lamm ML2.1s, ARC CD9se, and W/P 8s.
I have a audio research ref 5 preamp on one system and a boulder 810 on another. I couldn’t see living without them. I’m using the LUMIN family of streamer/DACs. I recently purchased a benchmark lA4 to match up with a first watt SIT 3, and I find the benchmark to be quite remarkable regardless of its relatively low cost.
my experience exactly with Antelope Zodiac Platinum +10m. If the phono preamp has enough gain even analogue sounds better through the Zodiac than the preamp.
I agree with hide45, the Quicksilver linestage is a terrific value. I have both versions of the Quicksilver preamps, the remote and the non remote. They are both great, the non remote is probably a little better in imaging, although there is very new version of the remote that apparently is as good as the non remote. Very reliable as well
Depends? Sure , High end preamp would be better than a cheapie . Better than no preamp ? Depends on the source and number of sources. Many sources would benefit from preamp. One terrific source with built in volume control , in my opinion is better than adding a high end preamp. I tried a few preamps with my Pass Labs Xa 100.8 and MSB Analog DAC. Always preferred no preamp. Note I tried Pass Labs XP 22 and Audio Research Ref 6. I would call these high end preamps. Every preamp I tried added coloration , diminished tops and bass and muddied transparency. I could not blame the additional power cable and interconnect because it was the same as the first interconnect and all the other power cables. Tried in my system back to back settling the run in preamp and cable in my system . Maybe because the MSB volume control module module is so darn good.
You will see a number of people singing the praises of the Don Sachs preamp. They are hand made, custom built, dressed up versions of the VTA SP14 kit. The Don Sachs preamp will run you about $2500. The base SP14 kit will run you $1090. Fully tested and assembled, it will run you $1490. There are options for better caps, remote control, attenuators, etc, all at a reasonable price more. The SP14 is very plain Jane if that's an issue for you.
90% of those who buy the SP14 will get the kit version. Not all that hard to build. Excellent instructions and building it will result in you being much more involved in the sound. The SP14 is every bit as good as any of the other preamps mentioned here - Audio Research, Prima Luna, Manley, Cary Audio, etc.
I recently did the Ultimate Upgrade on a Cary SLP-05 preamp. Stunning. Well worth the cost for me. They feed a pair of Passlabs XA60s and Goldenear Triton One.R speakers.
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