High end stereo preamps? Worth it?

The music had structure and substance I never heard.

You probably heard tube microphonics/euphonics.
If you put that same source "direct" into a pair of very expensive headphones you will get the sound more similar to the passive pre than the tube. A tube cannot make music it can only amplify and in this case "color it"

Cheers George

@djones51,

unfortunately a digital volume control progressively leads to a loss of resolution as the available bits get truncated. As long as you stay above say 80% of max volume, your statement applies; below, not so much

Analog  volume control is generally better. The truncated bits is true when dealing with 16 bit DACs not so much with 32 bits. 

@georgehifi, could this be harmonics ... ??? ... "color it"

I used a Marantz AV-8802A pre/processor as my preamp and home theater system processor.  I knew it was a very good theater processor but I also knew there was better hi-fidelity I should have for my musical, 2-channel play time.  I had already changed my amplifier from Adcom to Balanced Audio Technology (that alone was a revelation in sonic superiority to what I had).  I researched further and landed on the Balanced Audio Technology VK-33SE preamp.  It made sense as those units were designed/engineered to work properly with one another.  WOW!  was that an upgrade in sonic superiority.  The soundstage and imaging became so lifelike and dimensional.  Yes, a top-end preamp does make a very significant difference for high fidelity music reproduction.  Do your research to find a good match in preamp & amp and you will be rewarded very well in musical enjoyment.  Note; the BAT preamp does have the capability to change a source input to a fixed "unity gain", basically a pass-through.  This allows you to use an external pre/processor for your theater enjoyment while still using the main amp to your main speakers and not having to change any cable connections.  Very simple, convenient, and very nice.
Best of luck to you in your quest.

@georgehifi, could this be harmonics ... ??? ... "color it"

Yes maybe more like the "harmonic distortions" from the tubes themselves, which some like😏

Like I said before, they can’t make what’s coming out of the source better (add additional music content that’s not there), they can just color it with distortions and or microphonics.

Sources today have enough output to drive any poweramps to full power and more, this is why Nelson Pass said this.

“We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.

Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.

Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.

What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.

And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp.”

Cheers George

The comments about additional pieces can only degrade and digital volume controls are all that is needed are just for those systems where they tried it and liked it. I have done everything from using the tape out of a Superphon basic back in the day to bypass the analog volume controls to switching the digital vs analog of the Mytek in and out to using the MSB with its resistor ladder array. It all depends on the surrounding equipment and how they interact. Currently the MSB dac goes into Atmasphere MP-3 with NOS tubes and into either RM200 or Marsh A400s or hotrodded Acoustat TNT200, all balanced connections. Even then, the power still gums up the works some days. Oh well, when it is good it is really sweet! So in the end, you just have to try it to see if it helps!

The breakpoint where the price of a preamp can no longer be justified is probably around $2k or so.  Anything over that, you will not hear the difference :-)

Hey @cakyol , where were you 20 years ago?  If I had known about the $2K limit on preamps back then, I would have saved a lot of money!

@mitch2 +1.   I could have retired last year! 

My solution was Lyngdorf. No need for an upstream DAC. After years of SS and tube pre/power this is by far the best solution I found. My goal has always been to find the amplification system that acts like the proverbial wire with gain. Adding no sound characteristic of its own. The Lyngdorf is remarkably closer to that than any other hardware I've ever owned or auditioned. Even more remarkably, it's analog inputs are just as clean. You will hear what's upstream. If you like second order distortion, use a tube phono preamp. In fact not having to invest thousands in a DAC will allow you better upstream devices. Win-Win.

Atma sphere mp3 is interesting.

so many preamps to chose from.  A crap shoot. Most have no clue what they are buying.  Minimal info on internal build.  BLINDFAITH!!

a few preamps out there that seem to have more widespread acceptance. And overpriced of course.  

it’s all about the mix you bring to the situation. Preamp performance varies quite abit, depending on mix of components.  What a mess trying to decide.  Horrifying!! How can anyone make money selling this stuff??

Bring in Aesthetix preamps at any level. It will reveal what music is. :)

I never tried dac direct however have upgraded from a older Krell preamp to a CJ GAT 2 with everything being the same, big difference in sound; even wifey noticed and that’s saying ALOT. 

About two years ago I got a very good deal on a used Soulution 720 which includes the phono stage, and is a world-class pre-amp.  I can honestly say that this was one best system upgrades I have ever done, and that is factoring in the cost.  When I consider the value I got for selling my separate preamp and phonostage on Audiogon, this was a 4-figure upgrade and not an unreasonable expense.  The improvement on all of my sources was tremendous, but the phono upgrade ended up far better than I had expected.  To the OP's question, I think that the right high end preamp can make a VERY large difference in system performance.  However, it depends entirely on system matching and what specific role the preamp is expected to play.  That is my experience at least...

There is an Audio Research LS2B MKII with remote on eBay that would probably smoke anything new under $6K.  I've had mine 28 years and finally gave up trying to shoot out something better a few years ago.  Right tube and cables and it's really breath taking......   amazing sound stage and imaging.

I recently picked up a Tag McLaren preamp and I am tickled with the sonics and build quality.

Shindo Monbrison changed my life.  I could barely afford it even used but have never looked back.  It added richness and texture that I didn’t know I was missing.  

I'm not sure that it is accurate to say that a good preamp makes the sound better. It is probably more accurate to say that a really good preamp allows what was already there in the signal to get through better than a cheap one will. It is closer to the ideal "straight wire with gain" 

Try borrowing a really good used preamp from a local dealer on the basis that you are interested in buying it if it improves your listening experience, and  see what you find out.

And it doesn't (necessarily) have much to do with whether the amplification is solid state or tube (I run one system with each and find them both to be very good).

Worth is a subjective question.  Relative worth may be easier to deal with. I always ask the question "if i have $1000 to spend, where do i get the biggest benefit".  That depends, basically, on where the biggest problems are. And its exactly why i'm leery of most expensive tweeks, including cables and similar doo-dads.

Speakers traditionally have the greatest compromises. Unfortunately you need not only money but tolerance for size to move up with speakers.
IMO sources (turntables with carts) and DACs are also ripe for improvement. And both are fairly complex so it make sense.  As i work on DAC designs, the number of small to medium pitfalls is large. power. grounding. Isolation. Filtering. Blah, blah.  never-ending.
The best amps and pre-amps ought to be nearing perfection.  nearing, not there.  Sadly, many are not.  But the declining marginal returns are in full force over $2k for pre-amps IMO. Amps are more complex to answer since some speakers, in some rooms demand lots of power - and power you buy by the pound to a degree (transformers, output devices, heat sinks, and a chassis to hold all that heavy stuff!)
Right now i have a prototype integrated making the rounds. Its ~ 40w/ch/8 ohms and is targeted to sell for $2000-2500 "depending". It has qualities where it is superior to and others where it is slightly inferior to, $7-11k worth of separates. 

Now, nothing i design will "wow" anybody with lots of seductive distortion.  That's not my thing.  I want it to disappear, erring toward "never be obnoxious". So if what you want is a ton of euphonic harmonics, go for it, but that's a 'whole different kettle of fish.
But the best answer is - listen and trust your ears. As a great sommelier once told me when i asked the best way to really learn about wine: "pop a lot of corks".
Happy drinking.
G

I've read many on here saying no preamp is the best preamp.

I could not disagree more. I know it may not make sense, but adding a quality preamp brings realism and depth to the music. And I'm not talking about coloration. Something is lost in the interaction between a DAC going straight to the amp. I'm not a circuit designer and don't know exactly why this is, but it is a large difference in my testing with and without.
BTW, I love my Wyred4Sound STP-SE hooked into my nCore-based March Audio amp.

joey_v487 posts10-24-2020 6:35pmYes.

it depends on the room but if you’re good with the room, then yes for sure.

i went from Rotel preamp to rogue to Cary 98 then Cary 05 then arc 5se then finally audio research reference 40th anniversary.

the arc 40 is the best preamp I’ve ever owned and it’s hands down one of the best moves I’ve made

Joey! Did you do the Ultimate Upgrade and tube rolling on the Cary SLP-05? I had the Audio Research Reference 5SE and found that the Cary with the upgrade sounded better in every way. I haven’t compared it to the 40th Anniversary preamp or the Ref.10 though. Let me know your thoughts please.

I recently did the Ultimate Upgrade on a Cary SLP-05 preamp. Stunning. Well worth the cost for me. They feed a pair of Passlabs XA60s and Goldenear Triton One.R speakers. 

You will see a number of people singing the praises of the Don Sachs preamp.   They are hand made, custom built, dressed up versions of the VTA SP14 kit.  The Don Sachs preamp will run you about $2500.  The base SP14 kit will run you $1090.  Fully tested and assembled, it will run you $1490.  There are options for better caps, remote control, attenuators, etc, all at a reasonable price more.  The SP14 is very plain Jane if that's an issue for you.  

90% of those who buy the SP14 will get the kit version.  Not all that hard to build.  Excellent instructions and building it will result in you being much more involved in the sound.  The SP14 is every bit as good as any of the other preamps mentioned here - Audio Research, Prima Luna, Manley, Cary Audio, etc.

Depends?  Sure ,   High end preamp would be better than a cheapie .                   Better than no preamp ? Depends on the source and number of sources.  Many sources would benefit from preamp.    One terrific  source with built in volume control , in my opinion is better than adding a high end preamp.   I tried a few preamps with my Pass Labs Xa 100.8 and MSB Analog DAC.  Always preferred no preamp.  Note I tried Pass Labs XP 22 and Audio
Research Ref 6.  I would call these high end preamps.  Every preamp I tried added coloration , diminished tops and bass and muddied transparency.   I could not blame the additional power cable and interconnect because it was the same as the first interconnect and all the other power cables.  Tried in my system back to back settling  the run in preamp and cable in my system .   Maybe because the MSB volume control module module is so darn good. 

I agree with hide45, the Quicksilver linestage is a terrific value. I have both versions of the Quicksilver preamps, the remote and the non remote. They are both great, the non remote is probably a little better in imaging, although there is very new version of the remote that apparently is as good as the non remote. Very reliable as well

@alfa100

my experience exactly with Antelope Zodiac Platinum +10m. If the phono preamp has enough gain even analogue sounds better through the Zodiac than the preamp.

I have a audio research ref 5 preamp on one system and a boulder 810 on another.   I couldn’t see living without them.   I’m using the LUMIN family of streamer/DACs.   
I recently purchased a benchmark lA4 to match up with a first watt SIT 3, and I find the benchmark to be quite remarkable regardless of its relatively low cost.   

Look no further than the Audio Illusions Modulus 3B w the Curl MC phono stage. I’ve tried a lot of the above pre amps, and the M3B is, by far, the best for the money (did someone say best?). 
Disclosure: Currently running Lamm ML2.1s, ARC CD9se, and W/P 8s. 

Paul McGowan used to think that the best preamp is no preamp, i.e. only level control. He's a convert. He's a firm believer that "a great preamp is essential. Its contribution to overall sound quality cannot be ignored." 

If you're into DIY you can build a preamp pretty cheaply that matches, and in some ways exceeds, the specs of any of the high end preamps, and has a sterling reputation for audio quality.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/high-gain-opamp-based-preamp-for-low-output-mc-cartr...

  It's really only jewelry! lol 
.  i get that all the time  when i drive my SS  next to a Mustang GT ..
 It's really only jewelry!

Hi-end preamps absolutely make a big difference. Sorry to inform you but I’ve found that a great preamp will sound much better than a very good preamp. Now the right question to ask, which are the great preamps.   You cannot go by price as that can be very
misleading. I personally found that the best way for me to find a top performing component was to ask die-hard friends of mine that been in this hobby for AT LEAST 30 YRS for their top picks. 

Ah the "great preamp vs no preamp" question.
So how can anything be better than zero distortion?  Its tough, but possible in one of three ways.

1. It adds a euphonic distortion that you like.. nothing wrong with this, its what a Piano's sounding board does.
2. Its gain allows other components to work within their ideal range
3. It provides needed impedance matching
So is not crazy, but in an otherwise well balanced and engineered system (huge caveat in real life) its a tall order
I use one. Of course i have prototypes stuffed everywhere :-)
G

Hi lowtubes, very interested in a few preamp tube refs. Thanks.



hi iitsjustme 
great comments of value not heard a lot and restores my faith that heavier spending will have a benefit.

The most direct connection from source to sound will give you the least distortion. Every time that I have simplified the signal path in my system, the sound has improved.Getting rid of an equalizer, simpler preamp, etc. 

If an integrated amp has the same circuitry as its separates, I can't see how it wouldn't sound better than separates of the same model level. You eliminate the interconnects.

If you're talking about a vinyl only system, the phono stage is more important than the preamp, which should be essentially a switching and volume box. I have heard of a phono stage that can be directly plugged into an amp with no other input options, It has a volume control on it with no remote. Simplicity and direct connection. I didn't want to spend that kind of investment (I think it's around $16K from Sutherland- which is what he uses), but that sounds like Utopia for a vinyl only guy like me.  

Is anyone aware of these types of components, and have you heard them, and are any available at a more reasonable price level? 

Hello emergingsole, I’ve been in this hobby coming on 30yrs and I’ve owned a ton of preamps, amps, speakers, cables, etc. So I’m coming from experience of buying a lot of components In search of great sound. Many time I’ve been swayed by reviewers and audiophiles along the way. At times a reviewer would give a component an excellent (A+) review, and rightfully so, the piece deserves it,  but in comparison to a better piece, I realized that the 1st A+ piece wasn’t as good as the reviewer claimed. Newer definitely does not mean it will be better. Anyone who says this doesn’t really understand this hobby.  I’m fortunate, that as I was owning many preamps throughout the years, I had hardcore “seasoned” audiophiles friends who helped me. I presently own 4 great preamps. To refer to one that I have now for about 8 yrs is a Audio Research SP11 Mk 11. This preamps is really a separator from the pack. It competes with stuff in the big $ range. I really didn’t want to mention a specific component because there are so many “reference” grade preamps other than the SP 11 that are floating around. The point is, you need to find the right one for you. Now in regards to the question, preamp or no preamp? I’ve found that a well designed preamp can compliment a system with dynamics and scale. But a “no preamp” setup works well for many that value purity and tonality. You decide what’s right for you. Best advice I can give, go to local audio club meetings. Make some new “seasoned” friends. 

@emergingsoul,

if you must have a preamp, look at a used Graaf 13.5b II. at least you‘ll have a balanced connection to the amp out of it. it still won‘t get you remote control, though.
i

Lowtubes,
thanks.

Sp11 mk11 looks great.  

My challenge is deciding between a McIntosh c1100 vs audio research ref 6se.  Thoughts are welcome.
Why have you pursued such a large volume of hardware? So much expertise, and great it’s being shared.  I am hoping to make this a final purchase and go into retirement from my pursuit of overpriced audio equipment, all links in my chain will be quite strong at this point. 

I actually do both - main system is a Benchmark DAC1 and Sonic Frontiers phono stage into a BAT VK51 SE (the 6H30 tube is remarkable!). Second system is a Benchmark DAC1 HDR directly into an Audible Allusions amp. The pre is important in my main system for buffering the phono stage. Overall, having the pre is better, and I only don't use one in the second system out of convenience.

Emergingsoul,
               Im not familiar with the Mac and AR preamps you mentioned above. I would seek out a online McIntosh community of owners and get their opinion on the c1100 and same for the Audio Research of community owners on their take for the ref 6se.                I’ve collected stuff throughout the yrs. I have a few of extremely well regarded preamps because I chose to pick up a few of the best picks from audiophile friends that they’ve heard.  Each one of my pre’s has its own unique character, but a thing that I have noticed that separates a reference preamp from a very good pre is the size of the presentation.  A truly reference preamp is gonna be EXTREMELY open to the point where one cannot detect its boundaries and it will throws a gigantic soundstage with great dynamics. So as you’re evaluating preamps, I would take note of its openness.  It should sound like there are no walls or boundaries to the presentation. This should not only be evaluated with loud playing or certain tracks, but most importantly the music should have absolutely no boundaries even at low level and this should be evident on all the different types music played.            

What makes them worth it? What  qualities, preferably not expressed in purely subjective terms, makes a high end preamp that?
If I were to observe that a well designed $300 DIY preamp was indistinguishable in group blind testing from a Halcro DM10, and actually measured better, what would your response be?

Is anyone aware of these types of components, and have you heard them, and are any available at a more reasonable price level?

Funny, if you are asking about an integrated amp, with a direct plug-in RIAA option, it's my current design project.   (also a direct plug in discrete headphone amp for "personal audio".  Moving slowly due to other "paying the bills" projects. On the other hand it is (targeted to be...) fully remote, in part because the approach i am taking ought to simplify the signal path down to a pair of resistors. And i want remote capability and presume others do too.

Target is ~$2500 + RIAA. Not sure if you call that reasonable. And, of course, i don't count pricing o performance chickens until they hatch. Could be a colossal dud - but the basic unit, sans remote capabilities, is floating around getting independent appraisals. SO far, so good compared to ~ $10k and up combinations.
yep simpler is (generally) better.
One caveat, as a noted above, all that assumes that the simplified system remains properly impedance matched between stages and operates within its optical range. This is not always true.
G

Ah the "great preamp vs no preamp" question.
So how can anything be better than zero distortion? Its tough, but possible in one of three ways.
1. It adds a euphonic distortion that you like.. nothing wrong with this, its what a Piano’s sounding board does.

But why turn it into something else again with more colorations, it’s not what the maker of that piano specifically wanted you to hear. "Otherwise he may of added a tube sound board🤦‍♂️" and then called it a synthesizer instead of a piano.😏

Cheers George

@itsjustme - no - I was talking about going straight from a phono stage to a power amp. Basically a one input preamp with that input being phono. Output to a power amp (not integrated). Same amount of cables as if the power amp was integrated, but eliminating the integrated's preamp switching circuitry. Sutherland's philosophy seems to be take out whatever you can in search of a straight line connection.

@lowtubes - who wouldn't value purity and tonality?

Not really sure what the “distortion” argument is. If you look at the very best sounding amplifiers, e.g., the Lamm ML 2.2s, the THD numbers don’t approach many of the solid state designs...  But, there aren’t many folks (in a blindfolded test) who’d take a 0.001THD amp over, say, a Lamm SET With much higher THD numbers.

But, there aren’t many folks (in a blindfolded test) who’d take a 0.001THD amp over, say, a Lamm SET With much higher THD numbers.

Where if you can post the link, was this blind test and with how many conducted and printed up?

Cheers George

Benchmark LA4 .

@georgehifi,

Obviously there isn’t a randomized, blindfolded study published on my supposition. My point is that the “distortion” straw man set up in previous posts is not, in all cases, wedded to the effect on the listener’s ear in real life. So, I chose to make an example at the extremes. Thanks to today’s technology, you can buy a receiver at Best Buy tonight for $300 having gaudier distortion numbers than the Lamm ML2.2 SETs; a unit that the vast majority of professional reviewers regard as among the very best sounding amplifiers on the planet. 

Lamm ML2.2 SETs; a unit that the vast majority of professional reviewers regard as among the very best sounding amplifiers on the planet.

And that very debatable also, I heard the Lam’s driving the very easy load of Genesis 5.3 mids and tops only, (as the have active bottom end) and an old stereo Classe DR25 made the Lam’s sound lazy with less transparency and detail.

Cheers George