No news yet. I promise I’ll keep everyone posted. School just started up in full force again and while I’m certain it wasn’t a summer/COVID-19 hobby for him but it might not have the same focus as it did a few months ago. Sometimes a month will go and I don’t see him at all and sometimes it’s every few days.
Helping a kid out
So long story short I got neighbor kid into audio and to appreciate listening to music on something other than a cheap Bluetooth speaker. He’s pretty young but a good kid, a hard working honest kid. So far he’s accumulated his old mans Dual turntable that I helped him clean up and installed an Ortofon 2M Blue on it, a nice but older Marantz integrated and a pair of Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 speakers. I hooked him up with a pair of Kimber 8TC speaker cables I had retired a while ago (lol, probably making them the most expensive part of his system). He’s looking to upgrade and I suggested trying out a dedicated phono stage. I’m assuming his budget is in the $200 range and I told his old man I wouldn’t let him buy something stupid. I had no idea the sheer volume of phono stages in this price range on the market. What would you guys and gals suggest? My knee jerk reaction is Schitt Mani and I read a few good things about a Bellari unit but holy cow the choices are infinite. Maybe something a little higher end but used? Extra points if it can be purchased from Amazon but that’s by no means a deal breaker.
63 responses Add your response
Great thread and kudos to the OP for helping a youngster appreciate our hobby. The Bottlehead kit is a great idea. Building something yourself gives you a much better appreciation of how stuff works and what matters in the product. Who knows - it might lead him to a career in electronics as it did for me. I built several Heathkits in my teens and every one was a blast to build and a successful result, so I don't think this kind of kit would be that challenging for a motivated teen (particularly with the OP's help). I only wish I had continued to build my own gear over the past several decades. My excuse is career and family got in the way, but I now look back with some regret. Over the past couple of years, I've gotten back into DIY and built a pair of speakers with subs, three pair of monoblock amps and a preamp, and am currently finishing another preamp and have started working on my first tube project - a pair of 300B P-SET monoblocks. I'm having a blast and can see DIY audio becoming something I spend a good part of my retirement life on (approaching fast). |
Yeah, it has been two weeks. Then again, he is a kid. In two weeks he could have taken up rock climbing, kung fu, video games, two or three girlfriends, and spent the last three days holed up reading Neitzsche. While we all talk about the importance of having fun he is more than likely busy, you know, actually having fun. |
for anyone who wants to upgrade something, especially for an honest hard-working kid, The first question that needs to be asked is, why do you wanna upgrade? Anyone with that urge and who uses that word needs to clearly formulate what it is that is unsatisfactory in the current sound set up. There needs to be an understanding of the relation between the music that one enjoys, the system that is used to reproduce the music the listening space and ones concept of proper sound. This will create a sense of direction of where to go. And what would be the point of upgrading the phono stage? Doing that would only reinforce the great Disservice that audio marketing does in the audio industry. Don’t let this kid waste any time on upgrading and on audio gear before he understands where he wants to go with sound AND what good sound to him is. |
OP, make sure that you and the kid are having fun along the way. This experience will be precious to him down the road. PRAISE his choices in spite of what you may really feel. If his musical taste if awful to you, just agree to disagree. I'm happy to chip in a few LP's if I get an address. This is a really uplifting post! Good luck. Joe |
As many of you can sympathize, I’ve owned and built a fair number of phono preamps through the years and the best bang for the buck preamp I’ve had in my system is the Hagerman Bugle. The Bugle 3 is in your budget at under $200 right now and to my ears sounds better than the Bottlehead Reduction, Schiit Mani, and Jolida JD9. It’s customizable in that the op amps can be changed and the power supply can be upgraded (the latter of which I highly recommend.) A Bugle 2 full kit is also available for more serious customization for about $100 if that route is preferred. Good luck and let us know your decision! |
| Post removed |
I have to echo what others are saying about these kits. There is something so satisfying and tangible about being involved with a build rather than just shopping for gear. You become intimately involved. I built a Bottlehead Seduction a number of years ago. The instructions were detailed and easy to follow. It was incredible fun to build, but even more fun to listen to. Years later, I upgraded parts which got me involved again, and brought new life to an already good thing. I've had a number of phono stages, but the Seduction is at the top of my list. The experience was so much fun that I'd like to do it again with a Reduction or Eros. I wish you and your neighborhood a great experience! |
I have a brand new Bottlehead Seduction with the upgrade that I can let go for $400. Never plugged in. It was assembled by a Bottlehead technician, who also designs and builds tube amps, here in Seattle. He gave me a package deal with a Bottlehead BeePre 300B preamp w/ the option (also for sale.) It has about 200 hours of use. I am currently listening to a VAC Standard preamp w/ MC & MM and a VAC PHI 200 that I bought on this website not too long ago. |
Best thread on this forum all year A most worthy cause and would be glad to donate a used Pro-Ject Audio – Phono Box DC – MM/MC Phono preamp with line output with orignal packaging and instructions You're doing the right thing on the Bottlehead route and he'll be happier with the results Having both would give him something to compare and start sharpening the critical listneing skills Send me a PM if you're interested and I'll get the kit in the mail |
| Post removed |
Easy does it Millercarbon, I never said it WAS overwhelming, just potentially so for a young kid with a life outside of audio. When I was his age was a long time ago and very different. There were a lot fewer distractions. I am (was) an engineer by trade and fully capable of assembling this kit with him and have done similar projects across many different hobbies countless times in the past. My relationship with him is currently very good and I don’t want to impose myself or my enthusiasm on him. He doesn’t need another old man nor am I qualified to be one. My intent is to let him steer the ship and to explore this hobby with him as he sees fit. Spending a few evenings in my garage putting together a kit may sound good to him or maybe not. It may be the best audio component he’ll own for a while or it may not. Those are all decisions I respect him enough to make on his own. Right now it’s just a kid listening to records on an old Dual in his basement with his ‘not girlfriend’ and enjoying every moment of it. How many of us would love to be back then or there when life was so damn simple? |
The skills are nowhere near overwhelming. Take a look at a solid state amp like the Dynaco ST400. If it isn't at least ten times the parts I will be shocked. And I built that at his age. By myself. Totally by myself. Hasten to add, no internet back then. When I say by myself, I mean by myself! This Bottlehead, all there is, roughly a dozen caps, about that many resistors- you can see the whole thing right here https://bottlehead.com/product/reduction-1-1-phono-preamplifier-kit/ Can be done in an evening or two- it is just not that hard! Soldering, within a couple tries he will have that down pat. The solder flows towards the heat. Don't drip blobs. Hold the iron on the part until it gets hot enough to make the solder flow into the joint. Couple tries he will have it down pat. Just not that hard. If you like the way it sounds now just wait till you hear it with this phono stage. The kid will freak. You will freak. Seriously. So totally worth it. Overwhelming. Don't make me laugh. |
| Post removed |
jollygreenaudiophile2- I totally agree on the potentially overwhelming nature of the kit assembly process. It wasn’t lost on me the amount of skills required to do it justice. That being said, I’m definitely ‘all in’ if he is. I’ve been a hobbyist of many things over the years from model trains to hot rods and have a small workshop where we would have all the necessary items to build it. The Bottlehead route is an inspiring one for sure. Something I never would have considered had Tomic not made me aware of them. I personally love the idea of imparting these skills and investing the time into building something that will last…who knows, after I’m long gone it could turn up on some vintage audio website as a rare anomaly of a bygone era when people actually used to build things. I rarely see him during the week now that the world is getting back up to speed so I will run all these options by him when we meet up next. I’ve decided to cap any financial input from him at $200, any additional parts, tools or labor above and beyond that I’ll cover. I had a quick chat with his old man to make sure I wouldn’t be stepping on any toes. On another note and my apologies for being off topic, but I can’t believe how good that little system sounds all on its own…(must be the speaker wire). The Dual must have a million miles on it but a little TLC and a new cart has it playing like new and those little Elacs are awesome for the money. I will keep everyone apprised of the situation especially since this thread has somewhat taken on a life of its own. Many thanks for everyone and their gracious offers, let’s keep the conversation going! |
ecterrel-
This whole thread was worth it for the comment from Miller carbon! The Basie Sinatra album. Damn! That’s cool. I’m on it. I checked it out and must have a copy on wax! Thanks MC. You’re the man My pleasure. Francis A and Edward K is another good one but Sinatra-Basie is just awe-inspiring, the most swinging swing I ever heard. Fantastic recording too. Played it for the group at Chuxpona, it was the only record we listened to a whole side, and could easily have played side 2 as well. More than one has told me it is the best recording he ever heard. Granted mine is a Hot Stamper, and if you can find one of those it will be worth the wait (and the money, they are not cheap!). https://better-records.com/products/sinatfranc_2103?_pos=8&_sid=5c80a2d93&_ss=r |
I just have to ask. Is the young fellow (In point of fact). "So inclined", to do all that is required and involved with the gift of an "Electronic parts kit"? I ask because many, "Nearly all", seem suddenly bewildered when I bring up the fact that it is possible to build things of this sort yourself. Just think of ALL the new tasks needed (Including soldering) to follow this through to completion. And also, simply the cost of all the, "Ancillary" items, I.E. "Solder, liquid flux, flux brushes, paste flux, de-soldering wick, flux cleaner, and on and on and on... None are free. A decent, but "tiny", tin of "Tip conditioner", will set you back, ($20) now. So it, "May" be quite daunting to him. I know that as a young, detail oriented "perfectionist" myself. It was VERY daunting to me long ago.... What I have mentioned above is but, the tip of the iceberg too! And anyone whom brings up a "($20) kit from Ebay" of the items mentioned above for a build? Remember one of the rules I have heard so often here; "Crap in, Crap out". Because I believe that could be applied here. Anyway, If he "is" into it? GREAT! But if he's not.... OR, If for any other reason a "kit" does not work out? Contact me. I may have a few things, "Laying around'. That he may be interested in. Hey, If we all start just giving stuff away? "Audiogon" will see an uptick in new members too! I will mention though, that the "Powers that be" here became more than a bit confused when I simply, "gave" someone here that was just starting out a set of gear, "preamp and amp" for free. "I did have the Lad pay the shipping fee's though, ($450)"! Well, most of it anyway... |
Wonderful thread for sure. I wish I had a mentor to inspire my love for audio but I guess I had the next best thing, a local dealer who would actually guide you along the audio path. But I digress. It’s a great thing your doing for that kid and it seems he appreciates it or he probably wouldn’t be listening to your system when he’s over. The help everyone on Audiogonnis is giving, whether cash, experience or solder, ( nice of you MC), is priceless. Good luck with your build and keep us informed on its progress. |
This thread is a breathe of fresh air. Yes, it is satisfying when you have the opportunity the mentor a young person. It is great you are taking the time to do this. The bottlehead sounds like a great project and it has got to sound great. Make sure to spend some time looking at some videos on the art of soldering. There are clearly right and wrong ways to do this--you may even find some tips on line regarding the build of this particular unit. If for some reason this project doesn't come to fruition, I can give a thumbs up on the Bellari. I am listening to it right now for the last 2 hours. I use it in a headphone based system for early morning listening. It drives my Sennheiser HD660s with ease sourced from a Project table with an Ortofon Super OM20e cartridge. Picked up a couple of premium tubes to have a little fun with inexpensive tube rolling. I love this little system. Very musical, smooth yet detailed, invites you to listen for hours. You can also upgrade the PS if you want. You can't go wrong for the price and I wonder if it is not a bit more "fun" than the Mani. |
I second the bottle head. I’ve never heard of anything less that stellar come from those guys. However, if the guy is not up to that type of effort in learning to solder and assemble, the schiit mani really is a very good alternative to onboard phono stages. It’s clean and clear. It won’t give the greatest tone or the boldest sound but it really does a very good job of passing along a clean and full sounding signal. Not great for MC but gets the job done pretty darn well for MM. I’m still putting off getting a new one because my mani actually does sound good. Good job on the Elac though. Those are some damn fine sounding speakers for the price. Glad to see folks passing on the hobby. It’s a very rewarding one once a fella knows what it can offer. |
| Post removed |
Something maybe hard to appreciate right now, but he is at a stage of life where something like this phono stage could well be with him a good 10 years or more. The value of a really good phono stage is almost impossible to understand until you hear one. This will instantly be his finest component, something he will only appreciate more and more over time. Next time give him Sinatra-Basie, he will be hooked for sure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GphVjN5NXWA&list=PLdqqv4DQh82uHV5rybL4sFJUAVF5992DP&index=5 |
Alright, I’m sold. Bottlehead it is. Agreed that the experience and skill set are worth it all on their own. I’m not sure how ‘handy’ he is and I am certain he’s never even seen a soldering iron. The bragging rights of high end DIY amongst his friends has to be worth a bit also. I’ll bring it up to him and gauge his interest is this type of project. I don’t want to force him into any avenues he’s not totally invested in. Everyone’s gracious donation proposals are really quite moving and enormously appreciated. I have no issue making the project accessible for him monetarily and would enjoy doing so if required…my initial reluctance stems from the desire for him to budget, save, prioritize and appreciate the purchase rather than have it just handed over. You guys and gals really are a fine group and I feel a bit guilty for not taking a larger part in the community over the years. I’ve been a lurker and infrequent commentator for almost a decade. The knowledge base and experience contained here is immeasurable. millercarbon- I’ll keep you posted as your offer is both unique, practical and gracious. |
Now having read through the thread I am happy to report your job is much easier than you thought. There really is only one option, the Bottlehead kit. Just reading (studying, and understanding) the description will give the kid a better understanding of hi-fi components than most. It is not that hard, recommended even for first time kit builders and taking no more than an evening or two to build. It does not require any woodworking skills. https://bottlehead.com/product/reduction-1-1-phono-preamplifier-kit/ This kit is a lot simpler than the Dynaco ST400 I built at his age without any help. The Bottlehead kit is way simpler and yet also a much better project and component. In the end he will have spent more than planned but he will have a $1k phono stage for $400 and more importantly he will have acquired an actual asset not a money pit car. Important life skills I should think. If he does this I will not chip in $50 but instead do one better, and send you the Cardas Quad Eutetic rosin core solder to do it right. |