First time posting. I've had this fairly satisfying system for some time now and am looking at upgrading to a higher end set of speakers. Looking for a wider, deeper stage and possibly more involving presentation. Listen to a lot of female vocals and acoustic music -- using XRCD and SACD, primarily.
Oppo BDP 105 Benchmark DAC3 HGC (headphone or occasional Ipod/Mac duties) Plinius 9200 integrated Totem Acoustic Forest Kimber Hero/8TC and Shunyata power cords Monster HTS3600
Room is about 15x11 feet. 8 ft ceiling. Current speakers are along the shorter wall, about 2 feet out, 6 feet apart.
Budget probably around $5k, give or take (used or new). I've been somewhat partial to standmounts but would not be totally opposed to another set of floor standers. The low end extension of my Forests are for the most part, enough for my ears with the music I listen to. If I do get standmounts, I wouldn't be totally opposed to adding a sub later on (although integrating them would be a different discussion altogether).
I've looked considerably at the Dynaudio Confidence C1 (Platinum), Contour 20 or Special 40 (given I've heard good things about Plinius and Dynaudio synergy). I've also considered the Joseph Audio Pulsars. Unfortunately, demo possibilities are limited.
I don’t know if you can get the speakers 3 feet or more away from the front wall, but from the description of what you like to listen to, “Looking for a wider, deeper stage and possibly more involving presentation. Listen to a lot of female vocals and acoustic music”, it might be worth your while to check out Magnepan - 1.7i or .7. Budget-wise you could probably squeeze in a nice pair of subwoofers too, if you’re so inclined.
I gave this suggestion much thought and felt that the Magnepans were likely too big for my space. I did bite and got a REL T9i sub. I’d never used one before and although I’m sure my integration isn’t perfect yet, the increase in three dimensionality/depth, midrange clarity (especially in strings and vocals) as well as the low end extension — has made me a believer! I’m considering a stereo pair now...
I don’t know if you can get the speakers 3 feet or more away from the front wall, but from the description of what you like to listen to, “Looking for a wider, deeper stage and possibly more involving presentation. Listen to a lot of female vocals and acoustic music”, it might be worth your while to check out Magnepan - 1.7i or .7. Budget-wise you could probably squeeze in a nice pair of subwoofers too, if you’re so inclined.
How about spending $5k on a turntable set up? Or a little less and save a few bucks for records. Better bang for the buck and more detailed. Digital can’t deliver all the sound of analogue. Scientific fact.
05-30-2020 12:25pmYou already enjoy totem, have you tried the totem winds. About 5k used. I have the winds and love them. If I didn't do the winds my second choice was paradigm persona 3f. I bought used from dealer and received full warranty.
Good thought. I may just start looking at the Winds too, doesn't seem like their footprint is that much bigger.
05-30-2020 4:47amstart with the free stuff like plugging straight into the wall and working with speaker placement, I think you will find significant change from both. You will find no agreement here as to whether even new high quality power conditioners harm or help sound quality...
Yeah, good tip. I've been playing with speaker placement since I started this thread. Totems are now about 7+ feet apart, 16-20 inches from side wall and 3 feet from back wall. Seems to image better and stage seems a bid wider. I have yet to make some power changes. Thanks.
If you wanna try standmount give the Mad Buchardt S400s an audition. $30 for 45 days. Same bass as you got. Down to 25hz if you go active. If you do that sell off before everybody else does, depressing the used market for DACs, amps, spkr cables etc. Actives are the future.
Oz you can't talk to MC like that. They ARE going to sound great to him even if to no one else.
You already enjoy totem, have you tried the totem winds. About 5k used. I have the winds and love them. If I didn't do the winds my second choice was paradigm persona 3f. I bought used from dealer and received full warranty.
start with the free stuff like plugging straight into the wall and working with speaker placement, I think you will find significant change from both. You will find no agreement here as to whether even new high quality power conditioners harm or help sound quality...
While changing the power conditioner might indeed help the sound, I don’t believe it would improve the qualities you are asking for. It can reduce background noise, boost clarity and impact, but not so much the soundstage. I’m sure some have noticed improvements in their setups, but I’ve found the afore mentioned are where those changes help out. Improving your player is indeed a good suggestion. No experience with mod Wright myself, but have read great things for many years. I’d have to disagree with the idea that the Benchmark is a subpar DAC, for its price point, it’s very good. Everyone likes a different sound, so it might very well not be a good fit for some people for sure. Speakers of course can possibly make a big difference. One I found after looking for something more, like you are, years ago when auditioning huge numbers that left me all feeling blah, like they were just more of the same, was the Vandersteen 3a Signature. After all those years, they still hold up to just about anything out there, and can be found used well under your budget. Slightly over if new. They just sounded more open, less boxing and expanded the sound stage in a way that others did not. I had also listened to their top end at the time 5a and it just did not have that soundstage. The just updated their 2 series and those are also well within the budget, very similar design and sound, just don’t play as low. I do have Tekton Ulferberhts ready to replace the Vandersteens, but unfortunately won’t have the chance to do that until November, so no first hand knowledge of the Tekton sound. The reviews and praise for hat they do are the reason why I decided to try them without being able to hear them, so the ones recommending them I believe are most likely correct in what they have to say about them.
Give the stand mounted Tannoy Legacy Eatons a try. They throw a deep, wide soundstage, holographic even...and they are revealing, yet warm & non fatiguing. They are an efficient speaker and do very well with both tubed and class A gear. They excel at acoustic music. You will not need a sub with these, as they have 10 inch concentric drivers. They can also be tailored to your taste with bungs for both front facing bass ports as well as a unique high frequency level control panel. They can be biwired as well as grounded, as they have 5 binding posts. You will need relatively hard to locate low and wide stance stands for these. Atacama makes them. I’m very happy with my Tannoys and run them with a Sugden signature A21se class A single ended integrated. A perfect match for these speakers in my opinion. Listening space is a well furnished 15 x 12 area of a larger actual room of 25 x15 ft......7 foot ceiling. The room has zero room treatments, is well furnished with, what I’d describe as, equal reflective and absorbing materials. They are about 7 feet apart and about 12 to 14 inches from front wall with moderate toe in. Listening position about 7.5 feet away. The soundstage width and depth is incredible, with sounds emanating well beyond the speakers, seemingly coming from beyond the room boundaries. The inner detail is immense, due in part (in my opinion) to the both the speaker design and the class A topology of the amplifier. Using all Audioquest power enhancers, Niagara, thunder, X3, Z3, and copper outlet. Speaker cables are QED silver Anniversary xt bi wire. Marantz HD-cd1 utilized as a transport and a musical fidelity v90 dac. To me, the best set up I ever had. Future dac will be the Border patrol, but for now the v90 doing an admirable job. On analog duty is a Pro-ject classic sb TT with Hana EL moving coil with Alnico magnets, a Tavish design classic Tubed phono stage with jensen step up transformer, a vintage Aiwa f770 3 head cassette deck, and my cambridge audio t500 tuner. Turntable sitting on an apollo wall mounted dedicated shelf. The wall is concrete, studs/drywall. Floor of listening room is carpet over concrete. Maybe too much info, but trying to give you an idea of what I’m listening to.
Based on your experience, do you think the sonic improvements would translate to a much better staging/imaging/depth overall?
No question about it. Image clarity will improve substantially due to significantly lower noise floor. This will result in better image depth and size. Bass will deepen and be more controlled.
Great to hear. I'm seriously going to consider this actually. The TAS review on this "Truth modification" for the 105 was eye-opening.
wturkey73 posts05-29-2020 7:24pmThe later model 9200 also has a set of balanced inputs. The Oppo should have a set of balanced outputs. If not being utilized, one may notice a sonic improvement from these I/O's.
Unfortunately, I have one of the earlier 9200 versions with no balanced inputs.
What about the current system are you wanting to improve?
I've been wanting a wider stage with more depth (separation of instruments, etc). Something more involving too. That's not to say that I dislike the Forests, they are awesome speakers (that are a perfect match to the Plinius amp) thus the reason I've kept them for years. I've also casually heard Dynaudios thru the years and have always been impressed with the staging. Of course, after reading all these posts, I'm beginning to realize, swapping out the speakers may not necessarily be the first thing I need to do.
5:19pmFirst try moving the speaker placement. I would try pulling them out 5 feet into the room just to see how that changes the sound. I am not one for power conditioning so I would take that out all together. The Benchmark is below average DAC, and the Plinius is average. Then play around with different speaker cables to see if you can hear a difference. I would not pay $2000 for room treatment. That's my opinion.
Yes, I've played with speaker placement a bit since originally posting this. Keeping them about 8 feet apart now (max I can do with current furniture, etc) -- stage seems to be a bit wider. Don't know how much more I can pull them out into the room though...
As a former Plinius 9200 owner, please ensure the Plinius is plugged directly into a wall outlet with at least a 12 gauge power cable. The 9200 I had responded greatly after doing so. Mine for years was on a 14 gauge cable and surge protection unit. Sonically, a big mistake.
Non-believers will disagree. But your power and power management is the foundation of your sound system which sits on top of it, so to speak. So I completely agree, get Cardas or Shunyata wall outlets. Get a PS Audio Power Regenerator. Your Shunyata power cords should be ok as long as they are high current Venoms or above. As a bonus, you can look at Greenwave EMI filters.
Didn't think about this actually. I'm beginning to re-think my power setup. Good points. After a bit of reading, the power regenerator option is indeed intriguing (plus I can try if 30 days at home and always send it back).
I have the same size room as you and listen to a pair of Charney Audio Companion horns with Omega RS7 drivers. My system is Sparkler Audio CD player as transport to a Digital Amplifier Company (DAC) Dac 2 with volume control (HSV) to a DAC 2 Cherry Amp. Everything your looking for in wide deep engaging sound. If your in the NJ/NY area make an appointment with Charney you’ll be glad you did.
The later model 9200 also has a set of balanced inputs. The Oppo should have a set of balanced outputs. If not being utilized, one may notice a sonic improvement from these I/O's.
I saw on the totem website that they say the forest goes down to 30hz at -3db in room. That is pretty low. I would like to audition them to see if they really do.
The dynaudio c1 confidence platinum is a damn good speaker. I had them before I upgraded to my Magico S1MKII. They have pretty good bass extension as well.
As a former Plinius 9200 owner, please ensure the Plinius is plugged directly into a wall outlet with at least a 12 gauge power cable. The 9200 I had responded greatly after doing so. Mine for years was on a 14 gauge cable and surge protection unit. Sonically, a big mistake.
Non-believers will disagree. But your power and power management is the foundation of your sound system which sits on top of it, so to speak. So I completely agree, get Cardas or Shunyata wall outlets. Get a PS Audio Power Regenerator. Your Shunyata power cords should be ok as long as they are high current Venoms or above. As a bonus, you can look at Greenwave EMI filters.
First try moving the speaker placement. I would try pulling them out 5 feet into the room just to see how that changes the sound. I am not one for power conditioning so I would take that out all together. The Benchmark is below average DAC, and the Plinius is average. Then play around with different speaker cables to see if you can hear a difference. I would not pay $2000 for room treatment. That's my opinion.
b_limo1,417 posts05-29-2020 3:52pmDitch the monster, upgrade your outlets ($50 a piece), get a better power strip (maybe ps audio dectect) buy some room treatments from gik then decide. You can do all this for $2,000. If you still want to upgrade yoUr speakers, go from there!
Yes, looking at power conditioning and some budget tweaks sound pretty good too. I've actually never looked at room treatments. Will have to do some more reading on this...
jl352,594 posts05-29-2020 4:09pmthat Monster can degrade the sound of your very good electronics...I use similar Monster’s with my home theater and computer, so I’m not an anti-Monster guy...but your gear is too good...
Good thought. I may give it a try and get a different conditioner. I've been partial to Shunyata power conditioning products too. Ah.. another dilemma...
that Monster can degrade the sound of your very good electronics...I use similar Monster’s with my home theater and computer, so I’m not an anti-Monster guy...but your gear is too good...
Ditch the monster, upgrade your outlets ($50 a piece), get a better power strip (maybe ps audio dectect) buy some room treatments from gik then decide. You can do all this for $2,000. If you still want to upgrade yoUr speakers, go from there!
First thirst thing I would do is replace the Monster unit with a PS Audio Stellar 3 power regenerator. PS Audio has a trial period so if you don’t like it send it back.
Dan Wright does exceptional modifications for source components, and he has been doing it for nearly twenty years. He’s a pro. His modsmake real world improvements.
I am a repeat customer of Dan’s. There’s no one better in the business, and your system would absolutely benefit by modifying your Oppo 105.
Interesting you mentioned this. I've heard about this upgrade but didn't think much about it before. Based on your experience, do you think the sonic improvements would translate to a much better staging/imaging/depth overall?
7:48am? For the OP what is driving the current 6’ apart placement???
Did you mean they should be further or closer together? The width of the room is about 11 feet but it is my den/office, so mandatory bookshelves on either side and behind my listening position. Furthermore, the room is rectangular but does have an alcove where the entry/door is -- the R channel Forest actually rear faces that alcove. Overall, given these limitations, I've found this 6 ft distance, with no toe-in, the best as far as imaging/staging.
05-29-2020 3:58am$5k gives lots of options new, almost limitless used. Without listening it's tough to identify what's best for you.
On the other hand merely improving on the Totem Forests should not be too challenging, especially when it comes to scale.
In your place I'd look at designs which offer improved bandwidth, low cabinet noise (ie silent/disappearing), and a good measured response is no obvious weaknesses which might bug with time. There's also cosmetics to consider, as many designs are just plain ugly.
Why not have a look at used models from the solid Harbeth range, the advanced driver tech from ATC, or the impeccably measured speakers from Revel - and no doubt many more in addition to the highly fancied Pulsars?
Remember also that better sound might open up recordings in a way that you won't like. All of a sudden you'll hear recording effects, mixing desk/level sloppiness, instruments appearing from lower down in the mix etc etc. Favourite recordings will sound different, and your tastes might start to change taking you away from what you loved previously.
Great insight. Yes, I've realized thru the years that upgrading components do change my appreciation of previous recordings. I haven't thought about Harbeth or ATC much but I think there may be a dealer (at least for ATC) I can visit. Any particular models you think would work?
Having used older Kimber 4VS/4TC & 8TC (before they used clear covering) I pretty much agree with the opinions posted of Kimber 8TC.
I switched to an unconventional solid core copper speaker cable years ago and am still using/enjoying it (huge 3D soundstage without pinpoint imaging - like live music sounds).
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