If you look at your speakers specifications the manufacturer recommends a minimum of 30 wpc. Personally I wouldn’t go even that low at 30 wpc with 86db speakers. For what you are after you need either a higher powered tube integrated , or a tube preamp with a solid state power amp with appropriate wpc to drive those speakers. I don't know if your present integrated can be used as a power amp to feed a tube preamp. On the other hand , if you prefer one of the lower wpc tube integrated amps you mentioned replace your speakers with ones that are a match for them
Help with first tube amp
I’m looking for some guidance on purchasing my first tube amp.
My current setup: Speakers: Sonus Faber Sonetto 1 G2 bookshelf speakers. (I plan to add a subwoofer soon)
Amp/Source: Cambridge Audio EVO 150 (all-in-one integrated with built-in streamer & DAC)
The EVO 150 made sense originally because I didn’t have room for multiple components, but after some renovations I now have space and flexibility to build out a proper system.
Since this would be my first tube amp, I was hoping to keep costs reasonable and have been considering: •Muzishare X7 (KT88) •Cayin A-88T (KT88) •A used Muzishare R100 (300B) available locally •A used Brunoco Terra 6L6 PP available locally
My questions:
1. Will I actually hear a meaningful difference between my EVO 150 and these lower-cost tube amps?
2. Are my Sonus Faber Sonetto 1 G2s at 87 db sensitivity a good match for these lower-power tube amps ?
3. Anything I should keep in mind as a first-time tube amp buyer who listens mostly to vinyl and streaming?
4. What If I used the EVO 150 as a pre amp with the tube amp as power source only? Would that still give me that tube sound ?
Thanks in advance — really appreciate any advice from folks with experience!
37 responses Add your response
Around what is your 'reasonable cost' budget? Not familiar with Muzishare, but Cayin and Brunoco are both supposed to be fine tube brands. You might also say what kind of sound you'd like the tubes to provide for you. Different tubes in the same amp can make for very different sounds (for example, a Gold Lion 300B sounds nothing like a Western Electric 300B); in many cases, the differences are not subtle. |
If you can, you may want to borrow a tube amp first and give it a listen. Cayin is a decent amp. They offer several models at several price points. Believe they are made in the same factory as Primaluna. The key with tube amps is the quality of the output transformers. Usually you get what you pay for. There are so many options its tough to say buy brand X. There are tons of tube amps on the used market as well from the likes of CJ, ARC, VTL, VAC, MAC, etc. |
I would recommend sticking with amps that are well reviewed by Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and HiFi+. These are highly respected professional audiophile reviews. I would start with their annual component summaries. You will find brands like Cayin, PrimaLuna, Audio Research, VAC, etc. well reviewed. I would not hesitate to buy used of one of these brands although I always buy new. Other off or "amazing sound" for a budget cost... only new. There are too many risks buying off brands. Try to listen to a couple different brands... typically they will have a house sound, reproduced through their component lines. In the less expensive lines PrimaLuna, Cayin, and Rogue (I am personally not a fan of the the later). But all are well regarded. Tube watts are much more powerful than solid state watts. So while 25 watts of solid state power are unlikely to sound good on your speakers 25 watts from a good tube amp will probably sound great. Assuming you’re not into headbanging music at hearing loosing volumes. |
2. Are my Sonus Faber Sonetto 1 G2s at 87 db sensitivity a good match for these lower-power tube amps ? no, my beloved Cayin A88T is only 45wpc in ultra-linear mode. I would look to get 75 to 100 wpc tube amps, (try, option to keep or return). or, change your speakers to more efficient ones, with larger woofers, so you don't need to add a sub or pair of subs. |
In response to the post by @ghdprentice, the Pass XA 25 is a great sounding and very capable 25 wpc ss amp, and I understand your Cambridge is no slouch. Tubes are not for everyone. There are pros and cons living with each. It boils down to you and the sound characteristics you are looking/listening for. It is all subjective, and listening/reading reviews is not the answer, ime. Honestly, folks who love tubes, ime, like a bit of warmth, color and politeness in their recorded music reproduction, and there is nothing at all wrong with that. Tubes tend to be very holographic, when matched well to the rest of the system (in this case, the speakers). I prefer sharper attacks/transients, finer detailing, along with strong, rhythmic and controlled bass, and of course, an extremely quiet noise background. At 71, I have been through lots of gear, and I simply know what I like, as do many others, although, many still play in the merry go round, of changing gear (part of the hobby). This is the key...determine what you like, by listening, with your ears/brain. My best, MrD. |
@celtic66 .You can always use the subwoofers "high level" inputs via the power amp section of the Cambridge, as REL recommends, however, it does have a mono sub out. |
@elliottbnewcombjr I live in the New York City area. Brooklyn to be exact. I only know of one place in nyc area that has tube amps (Innovative Audio ) but they are pushing very expensive equipment. If there are other places in nyc area that I could demo tube amps in my price range please let me know. |
Your speakers are rated at 4 0hms nominal impedance, which means they probably dip below that and would be a bit of a hard load for the amps you mentioned and most budget tube integrateds. You might consider a hybrid like this Unison Unico Due that has a tube input stage with solid state MOSFET output stage that’d give you some tube magic with solid state power to sufficiently power your speakers. This seller offers 30-day returns if it doesn’t work out, which is nice. |
Head in to https://resolutionavnyc.com/collections in Brooklyn and tell them what you’re looking for - they’re super helpful and can guide you in the right direction, plus you’ll get to check out some cool gear. (If chasing that tube sound) - you may want to dig in to the benefits of higher efficiency speakers and then checkout https://www.decwareproducts.com for their tube products. I wish I would’ve known about them before I started my journey. Very affordable - often touted as people’s ’absolute favorite’ amp at any price (under $2K). |
@licarijo - one store in the NYC area that sells tube amps? That don't sound right. I just did a search on hi-fi stores in the NYC Area and came up with quite a few of them just on Yelp, most of whom sell tube gear. But these are high-end stores that sell high-end brands, and often tube gear from those brands can be a bit pricey, but even those brands often have a variety of levels and prices. |
For that budget, you can get into some good used tube amps. Offerings from Conrad Johnson, Cary Audio, (AES from Cary Audio from years ago), Quicksilver Audio, Rogue, and you can start getting into some Audio Research stuff at the top of your budget. The Decware gear is great, I've owned one of his pieces, myself. If you decide to buy new, be prepared for a 3 year wait. You could go used, but you would probably want to go with one of his larger 20+watt units. Those are over your budget at this time, though. But they can be something to aspire to for the future. |
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" you can get by with approx. 160-180 tube watts" Now that's a ridiculous statement. Lots of overthinking makes it look like an engineering feat going on. Look for a 20-40 watt used/new, MIC /whatever amp in your price range, read reviews , come back here with new thread about your choice to get more ridiculous suggestions, overthinking and reinventing the wheel advice. It's not necessary to get that anal about the technical side of audiophoolery for what you want to experience. |
Im curious as to how hard those Faber's are to drive? Sensitivity & ohms don't always tell the whole story. Of the 3 amps mentioned I would grab the Brunoco. If that is the best one for your speakers I haven't a clue. If you get a good deal on the Terra 6L6 I suspect it's an easy resell in the 2nd hand market. Other than that my opinion would be to not rush it. $15-$2500 in the used market could bring home a gem if you know what you are looking for & patient. Maybe these guys can mention some other options that are usually available out there. |
OP I would recommend that you look seriously at the Prima Luna line. its affordable and sounds good. the Chinese brands can sound good but it’s a hit and miss. some say OK but others are displeased. so, to save grief, just go with a prima luna look at Upscale audio to see what you like. integrated or separates, it all depends on the investment. The only other Tube power amp (actually integrated) that can compete with the primaluna BUT may take some serious thinking is the Line Magnetic LM-845a but that is another level all together.
Lastly, Look at the Rogue Audio Tube power amps or integrated amp. for me it's a tossup between Prima Luna and Rogue. I suggest that you do a home Evalutation. |
You need to find a dealer that you are comfortable with to help you. There are a lot of factors involved in picking compatible equipment. Especially amps and speakers. How big is your room? What kind of music do you listen to? How loud do you listen? Most people probably only use 1-2 watts of power for most of their listening. You might be one of those people. Again a good dealer can help you figure this kind of thing out. You are going to need to try some amps out to find out what will work best for you. My advice to you is to stop shopping for an amp and go shopping for a dealer. Once you find the right dealer everything will get easier. You might find out that what works best for you is something completely different than what you thought you wanted in the first place. Also, once you find that dealer stick with him/her forever. Give that dealer your loyalty. Doing so will save you time, money and make you a much happier and more successful audiophile. |
A huge thank you to everyone that has taken the time to respond. All of this is super helpful. Seriously - thank you. The audiophile community is the best. So after reviewing all the comments it seems I ned to upgrade my speakers to get that true tube sound experience if I wanted to go straight tube integrated. If I found speakers in the 90 db sensitivity at 8 ohms - will that do or do I need to look for higher sensitivity? Most of the amps I have bee looking at output 20-30 watts. I have a medium size listening room and since I live in a condo in Brooklyn, I can't really crank the volume and need to listen at moderate levels. Lastly, for the tube amp owners out there. Do you prefer the 300B, KT88 or EL34 tube sound>. How would you describe the sound differences of each? |
@licarijo So much depends on design and execution that it really isn't very accurate to assign a 'sound' to any power tube. But it does seem to work out that of higher powered tube amps the EL34 is often cited as the best sounding power tube. My surmise is in your budget a 300b based amp that is actually worthwhile is outside the budget you mentioned. But if you were to compare to an EL34 or KT88 you'd want that 300b amp to be push-pull and not SET. SETs don't make much usable power (about 20-25% of full power; if you want the most musical presentation) so you'd need speakers much more efficient than just 90dB- more like 100dB is needed! But 90dB and 8 Ohms would work fine with a PP amp of 35 Watts- like the Dynaco ST70. Dynaco makes/made a smaller amp called the ST35 that is more musical- hard to say if it would work in your situation but if you're not playing it that loud (IOW if it has enough power) that would be the better choice as the EL84 is an easier tube to drive and so can be lower distortion than the larger octal-based power tubes like the EL34.
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Well, it might be worth finding the amp you want and then just see if it works with your speakers in your situation. Or, the Black Ice F22 and LSA VT150 are highly rated, are in your price range new and likely have enough power for your speakers so may be another option to consider. I’d think they offer some kind of trial period, which would be a nice option to have. https://blackiceaudio.com/integrated-amplifers-1/p/black-ice-fusion-f22v2-tubeintegrated https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/lsa-amplifiers
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Keep the Sonus Fabers, a *small* 90+dB speaker that will fit your space won’t come close to them. Consider the Black Ice mentioned above, a venerable company (formerly Jolida) with excellent customer service. Also, the Tubes4HiFi VTA ST-120, based on the classic Dynaco Mark III and updated driver board, excellent transformers! http://www.tubes4hifi.com/amps.htm#ST120 I fell in love with 300Bs and ProAcs 30+ years ago at Audio Depot in Maryland. Still have the ProAcs but gave up on SE as just not conveying enough information with so many wonderful new digital classical recordings. |
licarijo I would consider taking a look at the tubes4hifi amplifiers, as dogearaudio mentioned previously. They are modern updated amps based on Dynako amplifiers.I happen to own (and love) their VTA ST-120 amplifier with about 70WPC with current tubes. The smaller brother (which I believe Atmosphere likes) is the VTA ST-70. It uses great transformers and updated parts, is push-pull design, has a choice of 2 chassis, is hand wired point to point, and with EL-34 tubes produces about 35 wpc.....though high current. Price with tubes is $1,650....though spring for the cap upgrades, absolutely worth it. |
The Evo 150 is a highly respected, well-reviewed Hypex Ncore Class D amplifier, with an amplification efficiency of over 93% even at 4 ohms. If you’re considering expanding your experience into valve amps, that is find but replacing it with a full set of separates deserves careful thought. As an alternative, you could invest in the economical yet highly praised Willsenton R8 to get your feet wet for the tube first.. |
