Has anyone added a small subwoofer to 2 channel and been thrilled with the result?
The subwoofer can of worms. I’d like to add some bass to my otherwise fine 2 speaker setup and have limited space so perhaps a single 10in? After a few weeks of research the only conclusion I can come up with is - everyone agrees they have to be setup properly. Every brand and technology has their own following and most recommend using 2 (which I don’t want due to space concerns). My room is 12 x 13 ft with box raised ceiling. After much research, these are the subwoofers I’m trying to pick from, for various reasons: Rythmik FM8 - lots of hifi fans JL audio e110 - fantastic support REL T/9i - sort of a gold standard KEF R400b - interesting technology, makes me grin.
I've never heard any of these. System: Hegel H160 SF Concerto speakers on stands. Ben
I added a single JL Audio e110 to support my Sonus Faber Olympica III's in a fairly large room
it is the first of 6 or 7 subs I've owned over a 25 year span that I've kept, every other sub lasted a few weeks and ended up in the sub boneyard
I've toyed with the idea of adding a second e110 but really don't feel the need to; this one does exactly what I wanted it to do: give me the last bit of low end definition that got lost in my room - plus I don't listen often at high levels so the single sub does a wonderful job of making the system a truly full range affair -- it disappears in the room, never localizes bass response, is highly defined and pitch correct, it blends absolutely seamlessly with my mains
Randy at JL is a fabulous resource, very knowledgeable and helpful; there's no doubt in my mind that his help was instrumental in maximizing the sub's performance in my system
the biggest challenge for me was believing that inserting a $1500 sub between my $8k pre amp and $10k amp and using the sub's crossover was the best application; it took a real leap of faith to agree to that, but it is absolutely the best method of application
Thought I would mention my setup, consisting of Moon 600i integrated, Focal L&R Utopia Be loudspeakers, (45Hz-40kHz) and one JL audio e110 subwoofer. Room is about 15x21 and 7.5 ft ceiling.
The Focal speakers are ported with two ports on each one, I have spent much time experimenting with plugging ports. One plugged, vs two plugged, etc. In the end I decided they sound best with both ports open. Also after lots of experimenting I have found using the low pass crossover set (according to the dial) just under 35Hz provides the most accurate sound.
The difference between the listed low frequency response of 45Hz by Focal and using <35Hz crossover setting on the e110 seems like would leave a hole in the sound field, but I have found if I set the e110 closer to the 45Hz of the Focals it only exaggerates the bass frequencies in the maybe 40Hz -60, 80+ Hz range?
I would also suggest look into the Soundoctor setup advice and CD at www.soundoctor.com, can be helpful. It has been a long road but my system is sounding great in all respects!
I had a Janis sub woofer with a pair Thiel's 20+ years ago. Now, I am starting a small system with a Peachtree Nova amp and Definitive Technology SM 45's. The speakers sound nice but I do miss the low end. What about the new ELac wireless sub's? Anybody test drive any of those? I like the flexibility of moving it around the room without the wires.
I'd give serious consideration to Hsu. I run a pair in my AV system and have occasionally run the audio only system through them (I don't need them for that as my main speakers are 3 dB down at 20 hz), They were well behaved (when properly set up) and fit in well.
That opinion is based on experience with only the VTF-15H Mk 2 units and I make no comment on any of the other models that I have no experience with,
+1 to danatek’s combo of Martin Logan Dynamo 300 with Magnepans. I have the same sub in a 15x20 room with MMGWs on the 20-foot walls. They have no bass but I wanted a fast sub, so I went with a small one. Just take the time to really listen to the mix, considering how low your speakers really go and just dialing up the sub volume until you’re more aware of feeling the sub than hearing it.
I highly recommend you look at SVS brand subs. There aren’t a lot of reviews, they are very positive. I just added an SB1000, their smallest and least expensive model, to my small room, bookshelf speakers system, and I’m thrilled. Good luck!
Casteeb, I have SF Venere 2.0 and needed a little more low end for certain types of music. I was pointed to the Sumiko s.5 because it matched the tonal qualities of the SFs. I have been impressed with how the sub is almost undetectable the way it just fills in the lower frequencies without sounding like an extra speaker. Plus it looks damn good. I have it attached via the speak-on cable to the b speaker outs. Room is 13.5x12.5 with 9 ft ceiling.
I added an 8 inch powered sub to my ADS 300s and it is wonderful The ADS are good down to 100hz and the sub adds exactly what's missing. The 300s Mids and Highs are Hard to beat at any price range.
I went through subs. Big ones, small ones, from Hsu, Infinity, DIY, Horn, Isobaric, compund, etc. .Found they all degraded the sound. I tried a cheap servo-sub, and loved it. Its the only type sub I can live with. I use a pair of $150 buck Yamaha servo-subs, with my small Proac monitors. Marchand passive 4th order xovers. I may upgrade someday to some more expensive servo subs, but for the last several years, they have satisfied me quite well.
The OP has an integrated amp. You can only do that with a separate amp and preamp. He will have to run his speakers full range. I use the JL d110 (no high pass filter) with the p3 and it blends nice!
I spent years box swapping. Never satisfied. Now I realise I’ve had a lot of very decent kit that would probably still be here if I added the missing ingredient earlier.
The JL Audio e-sub 112 has internal Hi/Lo Pass Filter. I feed the sub from my preamp, then out to the power amp for my mains (P3ESR). Crossover set to 95Hz This takes a load off the mains & liberates them. Also removes any bass lump. It’s seamless. Doesn’t sound like there’s a sub.
Ive had a set of Magnaplanars in a room of similar size to yours, and have always found large, slow 'subwoofers'i.e. Velodyne, JBL, etc just result in muddy, discontinuous sound. Not expecting very much, I tried a Martin-Logan Dynamo 300 8" powered sub and found it filled in the bottom end seamlessly. It has been superceded by the Dynamo 400 , an excellent product and an excellent value.
I wanted to post a shot of my IDEA Sub connected directly from my PassLabs XA25 amp in parallel with my PMC Twenty26 using Western Electric speaker shielded cables by TimePortal. Anyway the package of one sub and PMC sound wonderful. I couldn’t believe the results. The PMC stopped chuffing and the bass balanced beautifully. Using the sub crossover and level allows to customize to meet track needs. I’ve never looked back. Thought of trying other subs. This one is a 10” active and passive dual design. Works a treat. My bottom line? Experiment.
Subwoofing for 40 years now,biamp and also use an electronic crossover.....i got 5 sub woofers some big 15"some not so big10"they can really help out a system.I remember when I had KEF 101s and a subwooker ..would blow peoples mind how much music came from the KEFs,LOL,later on I showed them why ...a big subwoofer hidden away....
I added two REL t9/i subs to my 2-channel. Being somewhat of a dumb 2-channel purist and wanting to keep everything planar I was resistant to add the subs.
Ive finally come to accept that I now have separate subs in the room and the sound is fantastic. Just the right amount of room pressurization allowing for excellent slam in upper base and extension in lower frequencies.
I can try just powering a single sub to see how it compares and get back to you
I currently have a set of KEF LS50’s in a large room, 20’ x 24’ x 9’. They are on stands and I’ve used two different configurations. The first was a set of one cubic foot Klipsch 8” driver with two passives. The second sub sat directly on top of the first. I tuned them together andnthe sound was as a single sub. One coming in lower and the other tuned just a bit higher. Great sound but I needed to thin my gear. Sold them quick and easy, still miss them. One cubic foot with 350 watts each was a very nice sub. They were 308’s
The second setupmwith the KEFs was with a 10” sun from Klipsch again. Side Note; I love the PSA subs I have for my main system but they are huge and multitask for HT.
the 10” sub does a very good job as well and is set up and being used as I type. Have fun!
No brainer - haven’t read the other posts just be careful. Definitely go with two subs if possible and place each one as close to each bookshelf speaker as possible to minimize any timing issues. Just go small - 8 inch driver. Rythmik are great so are REL T Zero’s.
I have Raidho XT-1’s and I’ve paired them with B&W PV1D’s and I would put this system up against the best full range floorstanders on the market.
I can also use this to watch movies with outstanding results due to the improved bottom end. I cross mine over rather high at 80hz at the advise of Raidho. Call your speaker manufacturer to get tips.
A sound system that wants great power efficiency will definitely require you to use a subwoofer. Subwoofer has many good types, such as: JBL 728S, Martin S218, EKX118, BMB, Bose .... Refer to the subwoofer product at http://bit.ly/2SjOdMZ
Yes, I have done just that. But I had Magnapan speakers at the time. It was wonderful. The music exploded!. I currently have full range speakers now, no need for a sub. That said if you beside to get a sub, check out "REL".
You have to find the bass node in your room to find the best placement.
If a sub is fully controllable and there is a prime listening position, there are many possible placement sites. For stand mounted speakers slightly ahead of the main woofer to obtain the same driver / ear path length and minimal control affectation.
As far as placing the sub in the listening position and finding the spot with the most bass, I have never got it to work, even by crawling around on my knees to find the spot at ear level.
JL Audio makes a great sub. In reality the sub rally changes the mid-range and not for adding bass. You have to find the bass node in your room to find the best placement. Audio Physic website has good information on setting up speakers.
With the SF Concerto, rolling the low end from the mains and adding a sub will increase the 'low end precision'. Ported speakers have poor bass transient response. Consequently avoid ported subs if you want good bass transient response. Hence, a crossover for the main amp is required. It can be a simple capacitor.
IMO, a sub must have a phase control, 0 to 180° and a phase inversion switch. Crossover contour with multiple filters is a plus.
With proper phase integration, the increase in realism is way beyond the extra octave.
I really appreciate all the insight from folks who have implemented sub based systems and have empirical results to judge by.Very helpful for a newbee. Thanks guys.
Casteeb, I use the JL e110 with 2 way stand mounted speakers and it sounds great. My room is 13 x 18 x7 and the 1 sub is more than enough to fill the room. I run the speakers at full range and cross over the sub at 45Hz. My speakers are rated to around 38Hz. The sub can be placed on either side of one speaker but at least 1 foot from the side wall. My sub is on the outside right next to my left speaker on the same plane around 45" from the front wall to avoid any booming.
The key is to set the phase on the sub which is quite simple. Reverse the cables of your speakers so they are out of phase with the sub. The play music with drums and put your ears between the speaker and the sub. Start to change the phase on the sub until the bass is basically cancelled or very low. Reverse the cables back to normal. Go back to your listening position to determine the amount of bass coming from the sub. You don't want the sub to overwhelm the speakers but to blend in. This make take a few adjustments but the entire process should take less than 15 minutes. Once you think its ok, then turn the sub off and compare it with the sub on. As I stated you don't want the sub to overwhelm the overall sound but fill in the music. The volume on my sub is only set to the 9 o'clock position but its enough to fill the room but feel the lower notes. Best wishes.
With KEF Ref 1s I'm using a pair of Velodyne HGS-10s low-passed at 40 Hz with 24 dB/octave slope by a SMS-1 bass manager that also does acoustic room correction. The result is an excellent full-range sound.
In a smaller room like that I would be looking at REL T5 or Sumiko S5. The larger subs will be difficult to tame without DSP or some type of setup with 2-4 subs to flatten out the room response.
I also don’t think that the difference between high level and line level is enough to be concerned about. I have had good results using both with REL and Sumiko.
I’ll just say Hegel is a Norwegian Company well known in the European Audio Community and just getting a solid foot hold in North America, especially here in Canada.
Considering the size of your room, the Rythmik FM8, JL e110 and Rel T9i are all waaaaaaay more powerful than you need. You’re literally going to have the volume on any of those subs at the lowest point possible or they will overpower your main speakers.
I’m running a Rel T7 in a room a bit larger than yours (~200 sq ft) and anything above the 6th click on the volume knob is overpowering.
I have a 10" REL that I've used with several speakers over the years and it has worked well with both stand mount and floorstanders. I have had the best results with low crossover points, like 60Hz or lower and running the main speakers full range.
My dad has Concertos with a Velodyne DD10 and it's awesome for a compact system.
Some of the newer subs have built in EQ, I would suggest looking at those first. I'm using a Velodyne SMS 1 to EQ my REL and that coupled with a Auralex isolation platform and it delivers awesome low end .
JL and REL are great sounding subs in my experience
The answer your question yes I think adding a sub really helps.
I the JL audio E110 is a good choice. If you have a pre-pro or dac to amp you just sit the sub between the two and use the active internal crossover (not just a low pass but a true 24 dB cross-over). Works well and makes blending super easy.
The only issue I see is two subs are way better than one. I find one sub harder to get a good blend but it can be done.
I have two E112s and I would say it has been my best audio perchase. Don’t be scared to try a 60hz crossover point. Many will tell you it is too high but with a cross over it is not an issue.
The integration of a sub(s) is one of the most popular topics discussed in these forums. Beside the choice of a particular sub the most important is placement in the listening environment. Each room is different. You didn't state your main objective to add bass to your sound? Some like a powerful/floor shaking bass and others just want to fill in missing sound from the capability of the main speakers. What's your goal? Maybe I missed something in your original post but I don't know what amp and speakers you are currently using? Whether floor standers or monitors. And, what type of amp you're using to drive them? I also have a 2 channel setup using monitor speakers. I didn't want overpowering bass but just enough to fill in the complete sound. A compromise to using full range floor standers. With my setup I use the speakers with 2 10" subs. My integrated amp doesn't have any type of bass management capability. I use an Outlaw ICBM bass management unit. You could call it an active crossover. What it does is to send frequencies that the main speakers can't handle to the subs...thus relieving the mains from duty they can't handle. That's important. Sub placement is the most important factor. If you just want to "round out" your sound then one or two subs will do the trick. Just be careful of crossover frequencies between the mains and sub.
Here's my transition the past few months from two speakers to a 2.1 system to a 2.2 system.
Started with a humble stereo... Yamaha CR-2040 receiver and a pair of Advent Maestro speakers. Clean, clear power to those donut midrange speakers- this is *great* low-buck audio! ... but you're clearly not getting the lowest of the low end. And that's how it's going to be with many passive full-range speakers....
I don't want to shake the place- but I want the low end of the strings, percussion and brass represented completely.
Started by adding a single REL S/3.
$1000 for the sub was lots more than I had in the entire rest of the stereo. Used the cable that taps the L and R speaker outputs. Very significant improvement!
Considered adding a second REL S/3... My room is about 25 x 20, on a bass-sucking crawl space. I could tell simply adding another S/3 would be much better... but I decided to simply cut to the chase!
Worked out a wonderful deal on a pair of REL 212/SE and I'm here to tell you.. even without using Unicorn-quality components my (formerly inexpensive) stereo sounds world class. Not set up to boom and rattle- but the substance and dynamic power the REL's bring to the audio is unbelievable.
Not sure having subs "in stereo" matter all that much... but having the low end filled out by one or two subs is the best tone upgrade I could have possibly made. In essence- I took a junior varsity stereo and brought it into the major leagues with some high-quality supplemental low-end. Best audio money I ever spent.
If the subs were boomy A-V... then absolutely not. REL have been very musical for me and I would spend that money again in an instant for the improvements I received.
I’ve had excellent luck using an old 8” 100watt Energy Sub in conjunction with a pair of Triangle Titus small bookshelf speakers driven by a 10wpc Cayin EL84 tube amp. I use the speaker level crossover in the Woofer at a 60hz crossover. This is my bedroom system and it gets used virtually every day with program sources ranging from vinyl, CD and FM to internet radio.
Very happy with my REL S/3 SHO. I’ve got it tuned for just enough to fill in the lower end with some oomph and not get kicked out of my apartment. Wired up using the high level input off a class a/b amp, which it looks like the Hegel H160 is too.
Yes Parts connecxion May still have a few left. the Monitor Audio W-12 subwoofer uses a ceramic coated driver very fast and has Bass room correction was a $1600 sub retail. $950. Very musical. I did upgrade the Fuse, built A Furutech RCA,as a decent power cord for a subwoofer,Pangea -SE a very fast musical Bass performer.
I use an older Mirage dual 8” sub with a pair of Silverline Minuets.
The sub is turned down to barely kick in and fill out the lows. I used speaker level inputs and cut the lows from the monitors. The system is for bedroom tv sound.
I’m betting you will enjoy and appreciate a sub with your monitors. Worth a try...
Everybody will expound their favourites, so there is no real right or wrong choice of make. I would imagine that as long as they are not put on "loud" almost any make will be satisfactory and demonstrate improvement. As someone posted above, 2nd hand ones are very cheap and you can improve at no great incremental costs as you see fit. I did not believe in subwoofers some years ago, basically because I had not heard any. Now I have a minimum of 2 even in small rooms, but on VERY low.
@stuff_jones
kahlenz provided a good explanation. Suffice it to say that in any of my systems if there is a bass line coming from a particular spot in the soundstage it images correctly and I have no problem picking it out. Most of the frequency range of the bass guitar is above where I have my subwoofers filtered off at (around 40 - 80 hz depending on the speakers) so most or all of it is coming through my speakers.
At the frequency range the subwoofers activate the wavelengths are longer than your room. That means the entire room is being pressurized with these low signals, so the sound from the resolved wavelength is coming from everywhere.
If you are sitting 10' from your speakers, frequencies above approximately 115 Hz will have wavelengths of under 10', so the direct sound (at 115Hz and higher) will reach your ears before any reflections. As frequencies get higher, it becomes easier to pinpoint the direct sound from the speaker.
The reason for two subwoofers has more to do with cancelling resonance peaks and valleys than improved imaging. You can set up one subwoofer to sound pretty good at a single listening position, but if you want the bass to sound better at multiple listening positions two subs, when placed properly, will be much better. The sub frequencies will still be omni-directional, but will be distributed more evenly throughout the room. Any directional cues are coming from mid bass tones and transient noises such as pick and finger noises.
One of the big advantages of subs is that you can move them around to adjust to your room resonance frequencies. That is quite a bit more difficult with large, full range speakers that can handle sub-range frequencies. With big speakers that can reproduce those sub-frequency sounds, you will need to resort to digital or acoustic room correction to level out room resonance peaks and valleys.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
