Has anyone added a small subwoofer to 2 channel and been thrilled with the result?
I’d like to add some bass to my otherwise fine 2 speaker setup and have limited space so perhaps a single 10in?
After a few weeks of research the only conclusion I can come up with is - everyone agrees they have to be setup properly. Every brand and technology has their own following and most recommend using 2 (which I don’t want due to space concerns). My room is 12 x 13 ft with box raised ceiling.
After much research, these are the subwoofers I’m trying to pick from, for various reasons:
Rythmik FM8 - lots of hifi fans
JL audio e110 - fantastic support
REL T/9i - sort of a gold standard
KEF R400b - interesting technology, makes me grin.
I've never heard any of these.
System:
Hegel H160
SF Concerto speakers on stands.
Ben
Long thread but I will add my 2 cents. My room is quite small. Although it is irregular, the main listening space is 13X19x6.5ft. Yes, 6.5”! Basement man cave. No windows, heavy shag carpet. Some absorbers hanging on the walls but no room for bass traps or ceiling panels. System is on the long wall, with speakers out 2 ft from the front wall, tweeters 6 ft apart, and 8 ft to the listening position. Mains are Totem Element Metals and subs are JL Audio E110’s. They re placed along the front wall, a quarter of the distance along that wall from the corners each. Given the room size, one may think this is overkill (mains are full range) but small rooms are arguably more difficult to get good bass than large rooms. I started with one sub but bought into the arguments for two or more about six months ago. Because I use an integrated amp, I run the mains full range but have a high crossover point on the subs, 80Hz. I got to this point using a Umik-1 microphone from MiniDSP and Room EQ software. It is very interesting to take in-room measurements from the listening position and varying sub placement, crossover point, polarity, and sub volume. I had a significant null point at the listening position with the subs off. Turning them on and keeping the volume at reference level (zero), got rid of the null and smoothed out the bass response nicely. Like others, I find the subs help with bloom, even in the mid-range. Bass is nice and tight, with great attack and decay. The whole sound has a more satisfying roundedness without sacrificing detail. For those of you with rooms that don’t create bass issues consider yourselves fortunate. However, for the rest of us (which I suspect is the majority) one well integrated sub will almost always bring a smile to your face and two will result in a Cheshire cat grin. Can the use of subs be “abused” in a system? For sure. There is always the temptation to “get your money’s worth” but the temptation must be resisted. In my instance, the volume is set at a point where there is no boominess but the overall musical presentation is more pleasing. |
I added a single centered Martin Logan Grotto (10in sealed) sub to my 2 channel setup. Integrates really well with my Rega RS1 speakers in a 10.5x20ft room. No localization, no nodes, no bloat, even response, and quick dynamics. Blends seamlessly to my ears. Rolls off below 30hz but I’m very happy. I think I have the crossover set to 65hz. Setting level was critical as it’s easy to overdo it. I used some test tones and an SPL meter to help dial it in. |
Oh yes ! I love me a good two way. When done right nothing images as well. I also love subs. That being said I have only heard a few that are done right. A sub should Never be noticed but rather bring a presence and fullness, Kind of like a good flavored cream does not hide the coffee taste it just adds to the pleasure ! I am currently running in my second system, a rebuilt set of Watt 3.1 heads with a smaller Velodyne DSD 8 sub . Its magic. Its not subbish but rather Wooferish filling in, I have a dual 12 GR Research(Rythmik ) that is as musical as a sub should be, Its Danny Ritchies woofers that are paper vrs aluminum. I owned the 15 Rythmik and found it a but slower. |
You should seriously look at Paradigm’s new Defiance Series or their Seismic 110, depending on how much you want to spend...http://youtu.be/tJJtWokUIWk |
Dont know the Kef or Rythmic .. know JL is a respected sub company. Had a Paradigm 2200, nice. But what a step up for me going to Rel. My vote is for REL! I added a 328 to my Monitor Audio small Gold 10 monitors, then upgraded speakersto tower Aerial 7b's. In both cases the REL has been a nice cleaning up and defining to the bottom octaves. I liked the philosophy of signal transference from amp to sub regarding signal timing as it relates to speaker woofer & sub unity versus that from the pre-amp to sub. The idea floated is can we assume that pre-amp to sub via LFE is timing coherent with whats being sent thru via pre-amp/amp/speaker to eliminate a potential "time smear" (my terminology). It also made sense to me that the amps output would more likely align the sub to subtle sonic characteristics found in the amp. Just my experience between the LFE input use w/the Paradigm versus the amp output to the REL gave me a sense there maybe something to the concept. |
I added a Gallo 10" sub to my German FJ 2 Way loudspeakers. It is 300 watts and goes down to 18Hz. It is fully adjustable and I was able to integrate it perfectly with the speakers. I set its crossover setting to 50Hz I connected it with the 2nd set of outputs from my preamp. I didn't have a lot of room for a sub, so it being only 10.5" wide it fit nicely. |
Having gone through 3 or 4 subs that filled out the bass but whose integration with the main speakers always seemed so-so, I finally found the seamless integration I was looking for (with SF floorstanding speakers) through a software-configurable Elac Adante SUB 3070. I think two factors were responsible for the difference: the smartphone microphone-assisted setup that is then further customizable via the Elac app and the design of this sub that incorporates 2 diagonally-opposed 12" woofers. This sub is designed for music, not AV, and aided by drivers that point into the room diagonally, it never hints at boominess, and it reveals little of the sub's positioning. This is not a small sub, but it is certainly smaller than two 10" subs, and given the lows it can reproduce, making room for 12" drivers is certainly worth it. The fact that its cabinet is furniture-grade also eases the inconvenience of accommodating a big box. |
Like danatek2 said.... I was searching for a relevant sub that would compliment a pair of Maggie 3.7i ribbon speakers and tried a half dozen of the more popular (and expensive) offerings. All sounded muddy and out of sync as the Maggie's are very fast and accurate. At an old time music lovers suggestion, I was told to look for a short throw, sealed sub no larger than 10" to make sure it would damp quickly. Found a Martin Logan Dynamo 700w and that was it! Within minutes of trying it out in my home system I knew I had found what I was looking for in bass re-enforcement. Fast, accurate, with no boom or after tones ruining the main body of the music. Best part?......it was $600 bucks. Subs have to have synergy with your room and existing equipment. |
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@casteeb I am a firm believer in subs regardless if its a two channel system or not. There is no sense in missing the information in the lower octaves simply because it's a two channel system. I guess Im just not that much of a purist. So if adding a sub gives you the bass response you want then sure as long as its done right I say yes. My amp does not have a sub output so the sub I use in that room is connected inline with the speakers, and I use the crossover on the sub to make it disappear. Sounds amazing. In my larger room I use two subs to balance out the room and it works well. I say get that bass. |
It may take a few passes – or even a few days – to get things just right. You might even upset a few neighbors or roommates along the way. But that glorious moment when your subwoofer is delivering the kind of bass that makes your spine tingle is worth any associated work and grief. Have fun! => https://goo.gl/VgHZ6R |
I have a 2nd system in a smallish room (10x18) with WharfeDale Denton 80th's (5 inch drivers). Space and aesthetics were constraints for adding a sub in this room, but I ended up buying a small sealed sub by Cambridge Audio - the Minx X301 (8"). Like others here, the small sub really helped improve the sound. I'm not a base-head - just needed a more weight, and the little Minx did that. I had two Minx subs in this system for a short while and that was indeed better. I have a MiniDSP and will probably play with that in this system at some point. |
+1 on REL. The best decision I made was to add a REL T5i sub to my system (room size 12x16 feet). I was on the verge of upgrading my Dynaudio Contour 20 bookies to the bigger Contour 30 floorstanders due to a slight lack of bass (noticeable with jazz and electronica). I realized upon auditioning the Contour 30’s that I preferred the imaging of the smaller Contour 20’s and adding a sub would be a more affordable option as well. Turned out to be the best decision as the C30’s would have been overkill due to my room size. Once I got the REL dialed in it brought my system to another level. Hope this helps! |
No. But only in my trick I am using a box with boss 10 inch cheap driver and is not too bad. It is connected to 1 600 watt Alpine amp. The model before last. My theater is the same size as your room and running 2 2000 watt dual 18" SRX cabinet and I am quite pleased with the performance. For the truck I havent got around to installing the second 10" sub and amp configuration. I just need a couple hours to wire it in. |
If you've got an existing 2 channel small speaker setup the physics makes it impossible to reproduce deep bass frequencies below around 50 Hz with any kind of useful sound pressure level simply because those small drivers can't move the volume of air necessary so a subwoofer is a good bet. But you run into the issue of crossover frequency and ensuring correct phase between the satellite speakers and the subwoofer in the crossover frequency range. Try to get a subwoofer with a built in crossover i.e. one that you connect the 2 channel small stereo speakers into and then the subwoofer to the amplifier. This will ensure correct phase and crossover. Adjust the subwoofer level for a well balanced sound, maybe just a little extra. You may be pleasantly surprised how much bass content you've been missing in your music. |
I have Hegal H160 with Fritz's new Carbon 7 MKII speakers and recently added a modest Definitive technology subzero sub and a Paradigm crossover.. My room is about the same size as yours and the sub does make a subtle difference in filling in the bass at levels below 40 HZ. Here is how I set them up. . Connect the Hegel L and R preamp outputs to the Xover L and R low level inputs.
2. Connect the #1 subwoofer output to the input of the subwoofer. Sub output 2 doesn't support the phase control.
3. Set the subwoofer cutoff control to about 80-100 hz.
4..The phase control allows you to "synchronize" the motion of the sub with the woofer in the main speakers. Put on a recording with a prominent kick drum. Adjust the phase control so that the total amount of bass from the sub and main speaker is maximized. If the sub and speakers are very close it may not make a big difference.
5. Now you go back to the level control and fine tune that with different recordings.
6. Now go back to the cutoff control. If your speakers are small you may want to raise the frequency to 120hz. If they are large you may want to lower it to 40-60hz. It will depend on the room as well.
7. Now you can adjust the phase control again so that you blend the sub and main speakers. Don't worry about getting it perfect at first. As you play the system with more music you can fine tune it.
The Hegel has great bass so you will probably notice tighter more dynamic bass than before. The H160 is broken in but will sound better if you leave it on 24/7.
Enjoy
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To answer the question I seemed to have missed, after hearing a friend's system years ago utilizing one REL and liking it, I was looking around on Ebay for any reasonably priced REL and found a Q150e that was missing its grill for 200 bucks. Had the grill frame though, and otherwise was (and is ) perfect...stapled a new grill cloth on the thing and used it alone for a couple of years...great sub, 10" front firing, lots of adjustability. Next I found a mint Q108MKII (8" downfiring) also for 200 bucks, and its addition to the mix is great...note that a lot of the tedious yammering regarding proper setup or additional electronic crossovers, room treatment, etc., can be ignored by simply hooking the things up and moving 'em around some until they seem to work. I use mine in mono (hooked up together to the same amp binding posts) as they're simply not directional as bass position cues come from somewhat higher frequencies, and the subs in tandem work together to cure some room issues. Bottom line...use in a room with furniture, hook them up an enjoy them...I made my own cables with Canare Star Quad, but many used RELs come with a REL capable cable. |
As with many terms, "subwoofer" no longer means sub. It simply means "center woofer" or "dual-channel woofer". The original meaning from the "High Fidelity" era was "ultra-low frequency woofer", such as a 15-inch in a 6 cubic foot enclosure. Your main speakers now don’t actually have any woofer. The have what is advertised as 5.5 inch "woofers". If woofer comes from woof (sound made by a very large dog), those are more like "yelpers". It is not possible for such small drivers to move enough air at low-frequencies to be significant. The Rythmik FM8 has "dual" 8-inch woofers, so only a tiny step above what you now have. The KEF R400b has a pair of 9-inch drivers, hardly an improvement. The JL audio e110 is a 10-inch, still not serious bass power. All of these depend on built-in high-power amps to push the driver to high dB levels in the 50-150 Hz range, and that means louder bass that you already get smoothly from your current speakers. I suggest that you look for a 12-inch dual VOICE COIL system (one driver with two voice coils) in either a 2.5 cubic foot or larger cabinet. That type can provide smoother response and less distortion in the 20-100 Hz range, supplementing your present system well. |
inventor of THXTHX is a specification to ensure adequate playback capability for Lucas films. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THX Linkwitz-Riley is not the be-all and end all of XOver options. It has it's uses, but it is by no means universal. In some applications asymmetric slopes and phase inversion are preferred, while still others symmetric 2nd order may be best. Room and components play a large part in the choosing |
Just to share my experience: in my large L-shaped room, my GoldenEar Triton 7's were just not providing the depth/weight of sound I wanted. After doing a lot of research on upgrading the T7's and not coming to any conclusions, a pair of discounted subs caught my eye (SVS SB12-NSD subs, substantially discounted at $400 each, as other have mentioned here). Knowing that
SVS allows free returns, I purchased a pair, just to see if subs would
help give the bigger sound I was looking for. For me, with one placed next to each Triton 7, they definitely do, and I now consider the $800 I spent on them to be pretty much as worthwhile as the ~$5K I've spent on the rest of my setup (T7's, GoldenEar center channel, Marantz preamp, Emotiva power amp, single 15" Hsu sub). I don't have the knowledge/experience to offer any suggestions on sub comparisons or placement, but to me, these two entry-level subs made a very large difference that my single 15" Hsu, perhaps because of positioning, had not. |
Modifiers by trying to boost the base could be resolved in two ways in my opinion: 1. An equalizer 2 Instead of gimmicks and added components, if you could afford it (good used ones are out there) the Klipschorn or LaScala speakers would give you all the base without subwoofers. Read specs on these famous speakers. I was turned onto them by a friend and co-worker Tomlinson Holman, inventor of THX and creative director at Skywalker Ranch. The LaScalas were his studio monitors. |
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I've had great success with RELs being added to an already great-sounding system. I don't listen to loud music so my 2 RELs add a lot of fullness to everything. But be sure to connect them "speaker" level versus "line level" to get the best results. That's the way they are designed. You can't go wrong with REL. |
Mating Subwoofers with “Mini-Monitor” Main Speakers in a 2 Channel Stereo (not “home theater”) System… When space or decor constraints dictate the use of small “mini-monitor” main speakers instead of classic full-range speakers, you will need to supplement the bass in some manner if your goal is full fidelity. The common way to extend bass coverage is to add subwoofers, but positioning those boxes (yes, you’ll need a pair) generally means they’ll have to hide in the front room corners. Of course, many subwoofers are too massive for small rooms that are already restricted to mini-monitor main speakers, so limit your search to subwoofers that will fit the space available. Avoid ported reflex and passive radiator (“drone cone”) models. Sealed-box subwoofers assure more linear bass response, and sealed subs can be more easily phase-matched with your main speakers at the crossover point. Next, decide what crossover frequency to apply. If you use small monitors with ~ 5 inch woofers they’ll exhibit rapid falloff approaching 80-85Hz, so select a higher crossover, like 94Hz. At that frequency you’ll also need to assure that your subwoofer is capable of near flat output up to a half- octave higher, e.g. to ~ 130 Hz. If your subwoofer can’t reach that high you might have to pick a lower crossover point. Choose a logical compromise, but don’t consider anything below 80 Hz. A lower crossover is not appropriate for mini-monitors of any cone diameter, and going lower always invites more room-related modal trash—disruptive resonance best kept below the crossover hinge. The smallest subwoofer that I can personally recommend is JL Audio’s E-Sub e110. It sums to about 1.8 cubic feet, and weighs 53 pounds. Any bigger tends to get impractical, so check the linear dimensions of the e110 and use that as your limit guideline. The JL Audio E-Sub e110 is capable of relatively flat output over the 30 Hz - 130 Hz range, and it’s solidly built; it’s a fine small subwoofer. Clearly, you should select the optimum crossover frequency, consistent what your main speakers can handle. You’ll want to filter the low-pass drive, to the subwoofers, to reject frequencies above your crossover point. And you should also filter the high-pass drive, to your main speakers, to reject signals below the crossover point. This latter filtration is especially vital. You don’t want to route power-hungry low bass signals to mini-monitors that can’t handle “heavy lifting”, and the cleanest way to do this is to keep that low bass energy out of the main speakers’ power amplifier. The modern and most effective way to assure accurate crossover is by means of a Linkwitz-Riley aligned 4th order (24 dB/octave) active crossover. That function is already self-contained in some of the premium high-end subwoofers (including the E-Sub e110). Lesser subwoofers generally provide far simpler filtering, often just for the low-pass (high-cut) stage, and many are not full 4th order filters. Some subwoofers also include rudimentary high-pass (low-cut) filtration too, but only with simple first or second order (6 dB, 12 dB/octave) attenuation slopes, and that’s just not adequate. Effectively accomplishing a clean, complementary crossover transition is of vital importance, and a Linkwitz-Riley aligned 4th order active filter is the optimum solution—but don’t despair if your preferred subwoofer omits this feature. Why not? Well, because the best way to utilize such crossover is to implement it externally, as a separate control box that’s positioned with all of your other command functions. This will allow you to manage the subwoofer/main speaker blend from a single, central location. If this function stays buried inside each subwoofer you’d then have to crawl to each separate unit to individually adjust the subwoofer/main speaker acoustic ratio. An external electronic crossover control eliminates that odious option. When this function is external, the subwoofers’ internal crossovers should then be switched to their “bypass mode”, rendering those internal filters non-functional. The crossover frequency and sub-to-main mix will then be set at the new external electronic crossover control. Marchand Electronics, of Rochester, NY, offers a professional grade stereo electronic crossover, model XM66, that’s ideal; refer http://www.marchandelec.com/xm66.html. The price at this writing is $850. It can be set, by the user, for any desired crossover frequency, and it provides a full 4th order (24 dB/octave) Linkwitz-Riley aligned slope for both the high passband (to main power amplifier) and the low passband (to self-powered subs), with ±5 dB (in precise ±1 dB steps) front panel level controls for each passband, on each channel. These controls make it quite easy to trim and shape the respective gain settings as desired, to optimally accommodate programs of different genre. In addition, XM66 includes a damping control that permits fine tuning of the response at the crossing notch. This makes it possible to build in a gentle (+1 to +2 dB) bump at the immediate hi/lo hinge point, to smooth over any perceived evidence of the passband transition. Aurally blending subwoofers with main speakers by means of endless tweak-and-listen trials can get tiresome. There are more direct and precise ways to accomplish this critical final step; request my white paper headed On Optimizing Subwoofer Gain & Phase Angle. This sheet describes how to accurately set the subwoofer’s internal input gain and phase angle controls to assure that a phase- coincident wavefront of optimum amplitude is delivered at the designated listening position. An external electronic crossover control should be inserted into the audio system at a point that follows the main preamp (or follows the master volume control if using a “passive preamp”) and precedes the main power amplifier. The Marchand XM66 crossover’s input impedance is ~100kΩ, so it’s fully load compatible with any preamp ever made. Ditto for any “passive preamp” that utilizes a stereo volume control of 10 kΩ to 20 kΩ, with no need for a unity gain buffer to load the passive stage when it can mate with the XM66 inputs via ≤ 2 meters of audio cable. That length restriction is generally not a problem. The XM66 is normally furnished with gold-plated RCA-type in/out connectors; balanced XLR-type connector sockets are available at additional cost. The XM66 output impedance is quite low, so it can couple to any power amplifier that exhibits input impedance of ≥ 10 kΩ. In sum, the Marchand XM66 crossover unit is easily integrated. |
Do you guys think a sub would help with my big JBL 4333's? They have a 15" woofer (2231 or 2235) which has a frequency response of 35 to 20,000 Hz. I also have them bi-amped with a Dynaco tube top-end and a McIntosh MC7150 (150 watts) bottom end using a Rane active crossover so it is easy to boost the low end. Crossover between LF and HF is 800Hz. Preamps are tubed Dynaco PAS3 and Heathkit SP2 (I swap them out between upgrades). Just wondering if an external sub would help more than just boosting the LF channel via active crossover. I know that it's an old-school system but I'm always looking to improve. |
Since the O.P. asked specifically about a small sub in a 2-channel set up I'd like to recommend the Dynaudio 9S which is almost half the size of the
SVS SB12-NSD which it replaced in my system. The 9S, being a pro studio sub, has the big advantage for my system in having the option of all balanced XLR inputs and outputs which allows me to operate my whole stereo in fully balanced mode for which my gear is optimized. It's also a fantastic sub, easily exceeding the SB12-NSD which, by comparison, sounds rather bloated and sluggish. |
I'm running B&W 802 D3's with 2 B&W ASW 700 subwoofers integrated with a JL Audio CR-1 crossover. For years I could never get solid bass in my room, because it's a carpet over concrete floor basement room and I have a huge suck out where my listing position is set up ( the sitting position is limited due to various factors in the room). Since adding the subwoofers (basically positioned across from each other on each side of the room ) and spending quite a bit of time integrating them with the crossover, it's been the best investment I've ever made and has raised my system to a whole new level. For a long time I was very reluctant to add Subs as it was not seen as the "purist" thing to do, but after reading an article in Stereophile where they reviewed the cr1 integrated with I believe REL speakers, and also listening to Paul from PS Audio who's a big proponent of using subwoofers even with full range speakers, I got over my bias thinking subwoofers are only for home theater and heavy metal stereo listeners. One thing I did do recently, is run the main speakers down to 30 Hz but have the subs crossed over around 65hz. By doing this, it's really opened up the sound stage. You would think having the subs crossover ay above where the main speakers cut-out would cause too much bass at those points, but it doesn't do that. To the point about how much bass you want, I have the bass at a level where it's natural but can still be felt. The goal for me is not to create a heavy metal system where the bass is kicking you in the head. I can certainly crank up the bass to do that but that sort of defeats the purpose in a true audiophile system IMO. |
I have. Martin Logan CLX with Descent i . I like to use a second preamp output to drive the subwoofer. This has the advantage of a cleaner signal for both woofer and main speakers, but the disadvantage of requiring a level adjustment if the main amplifier is changed. A lot of folks talk about fast/slow woofers with stats. They're talking out their butts and are reflecting their frustrations due to basic incompetence at setup of a sub-woofer. Trying to adjust a sub-woofer based on listening to recordings will be an exercise in frustration. These frustrations are similar to those expressed for multi-channel playback. In that case, lots of folks just can't handle proper phase and level setting of the multiple speakers. Just my arrogant opinion. ;) The trick, in the absence of good automation, is to use a calibrated mic with a decent RTA and suitable broad-band noise. I use True RTA on my PC with a calibrated mic. You must be sure to load the mic calibration data which allows the RTA software to compensate for the mic's errors in response. This allows for rapid, non-guessing, setup of level and phase for good blending with the main speakers. Once set, you can feel free to make slight level adjustments to taste. |