Grounding cable gauge size

Shungite - check.

Where can you get pounds of graphene or carbon, not grams?

I'm wondering if the high conductivity of silver is the real need in the cables due to the low levels of the signals (noise). Certainly low current and low voltage but losses along the wire will not help it escape, so to speak.

Normally the AC ground tip that causes the noise in your systems as it creates circulating ground current in the circuits. Get an AC adapter with no ground plug or take you're Plyers and remove the command ground end of the connector.

Connecting all the chassis to ground will lead to and increase to noise besides most new components don't have a chassis ground connector, those days have passed. The connect all the chassis grounds is to a star from each chassis. So each components will have a sperate ground run to bus bar or star point. When connecting an earth ground the rod must be buried 6 to 10 feet. There is a piece of gear that will measure when the ground is at earth potential, it's called a Megger. Different soil types make a different where there is earth potential.

On Telecom systems the chassis ground or connect to a large copper bar normally 16 to 12 AWG.  This ground needs to be a very low impedance or it may cause noise. Of course the main purpose is from voltage surge and Lighting strike. The ground systems can fail to protect with out other protection devices.

Jim 

Thank you ozzy

twoleftears,

I would like to try some king of AC grounding devices, but without the need for a grounding rod.

ozzy

gavman,

Zebrano Signature.

ozzy

bugredmachine,

Also add some Shungite.

ozzy

Puritan has a model designed specifically for apartments that doesn't have an external grounding rod.

I would say my boxes should be reworked with a more conductive media like graphene or powdered carbon.

pedroeb:

I think your situation is exactly what these boxes are for.

Ozzy, the Entreqs did not have plates in them? I assumed, as they state, a battery-looking device that collects voltage in reverse of how a battery with cathode and anode plates works.

I'm interested in the Puritan Audio Labs - The Ground Master but it's impossible for me to have an additional Ground Rod as I'm on level 6 of a 35 story apartment complex.

Somehow I'd like to have a one way system so any noise in the building's ground can't contaminate my system.

Any ideas?

Fascinating. 

Which model was it?

it might be worth trying placing a long piece of crystalline/rock tourmaline adjacent to the cable at the entry point with the grain structure aligned parallel with the cable. Not saying it will work, but worth a try and not that expensive in the grand scheme. Might also be the place to try a Bybee signal enhancer or SR tuning disc

would be interested to her the results if anybody tries it

I tried the SGS and it did not work as well as my DIY or the Entreq. At least in my system.

ozzy

Can i pick up on something jerrybj said?

Have a Signal Ground Solution SG1 grounding box from Andrew in Scotland.

Have two of his copper grounding cables, reasonably priced.

Waiting on a Silent Point grounding box I’ve ordered.

So, having linked to some truly weapons grade audio porn and undoubted jewellery, In the interests of price balance, to say the least in full disclosure, i must say that the dealer who sold me my Tripoint is now concentrating on the SGS product range. He feels they get most of the way there, for a fraction the cost of Tripoint

Review here

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2021/10/signal-ground-solutions-sgs-1-signature.html

Manufacturer’s website, they give some details about construction of boxes and grounding cable

https://signalgroundsolutions.com/

This is from the Tripoint page. It refers to the one above entry level, out of four.

SIGNATURE SILVER: Pure silver cable with Oyaide spades. Signature Silver Sonic Signature: quiet, silky smooth high frequencies.

interesting - what type of construction are they?

Physically massive. Material varies from cable to cable. Some copper, some silver

From Tripoint’s home page, scroll down to subsection grounding cables, you can see the different materials used in respective cables

https://tripointaudio.us/tripoint-products

Dalby Celestial

https://us.v-cdn.net/5022769/uploads/simplestforum/12015_photo.jpg

Lee keeps his exact recipe close to his chest, much like Per Oloff of Entreq☺

I have seen the insides of some of the Entreq units and it mostly looks like the insides of my DIY version. Only mine looks better...

ozzy

So if you had a cathodic metal like silver on the outside of the box the voltage would want to flow back out if the inside had aluminum plates in a conductive medium inside. So this does not make sense from a galvanic circuit. 

Can't we just cut somebody's Entreq in two and we'll have our answers!

gavman,

Thank you. As I stated early on in this thread, I still cannot understand what makes the grounding wires so expensive. I am using mostly solid .9999 silver 16-18 ga wire on my DIY boxes, but I do have 2 sets of the Entreq Atlantis cables on the Entreq box. And they are better than my solid silver wires. At least on the Entreq box.

ozzy

But users report that the ground wire is perhaps even more significant than the grounding box.

interesting - what type of construction are they?

All that being said I would like to try a Tripoint unit someday, but they are a little costly,

ozzy

Innit😁

Took me a year to save up for the Tripoint...

Btw your focus on grounding wires is shared by the high end forums WBF and AudioExotics in the far east. Tripoint make some upgraded ground wires, as does Dalby Audio Design,  even by WBF and AE standards they are eye- wateringly expensive; think 10 x the cost of the Entreq Ertha Atlantis. But users report that the ground wire is perhaps even more significant than the grounding box.

then why do so many otherwise sane people report that they do? This type of uninformed condescension wears very thin from those who have zero hands on experience and simply pontificate from their armchairs

I'm with you 100% on this

Thank you gavman for that very helpful information.

I can say that my DIY boxes do seem to be as good as the Entreq Silver Tellus (if perhaps better). I have done a lot of research, and a lot of trial and error in the ingredients that I chose for my DIY versions. Combined they all make a big difference in the sound depth and all the other attributes you have referenced. With the Entreq and my 3 DIY versions I have been able to separate digital, analog and speakers.

All that being said I would like to try a Tripoint unit someday, but they are a little costly,

ozzy

Hello Ozzy

In my limited experience adding Entreq cables and grounding box (Olympus Tellus) was the crossing of a major threshold, giving a bigger benefit than any other change or addition i have made.

I live somewhere very remote, there are no other buildings in my post (zip) code, and I'm the only property on my outside mains transformer. Internally i have separate spurs powering my source components with a second dedicated to power amps and my subwoofers on the general house circuit. My home has star grounding via rods driven down to reach the water table. And yet, despite all of that,  the transformation when i added the first grounding box was astounding.

All of the things Ozzy said, an opening up of the sound field, more detail, a purer emotional connection to the music, increased dynamics and significant improvements in all the all of the things my system does well, notably bass extension and slam. It's my system on a good day, everyday.

Btw this is what Entreq say regarding mains grounding:

Something to establish is that Entreq’s use of the term Ground does not directly relate to or mean ‘Primary Earth’ i.e. what you would understand as your ‘Protective Earth’ for your mains electricity. Entreq Ground Boxes are not designed to substitute or replace the protective ground found in your home. The function of the Entreq Ground Box is to present itself as an attractive destination for high frequency noise, stray voltages and the various issues induced by magnetic field effects. This pollution is littered across the system and is always present. Different systems attract, generate and produce different levels and types of noise

I would also add that I'm playing with my new Tripoint Elite box, experimenting with differing grounding philosophies; ime Entreq works best with signal grounding, Tripoint with chassis grounding. I would heartily concur that mixing analogue and digital components on the same grounding plane is a no- no, and even mixing chassis and signal grounds from the same component on a single ground plane is undesireable. This would be why both Entreq and Tripoint are going down the route of multiple, disconnected ground planes within each box; the Tripoint offers five grounding planes, as does the new Entreq box, the Olympus Hero

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/entreq-olympus-hero-multi-cell-ground-box?gclid=CjwKCAiAjoeRBhAJEiwAYY3nDM6uk3dfkrAE93ARIh5BfMZDwQ-l6k2SvC72x6a-NxoSgqAjPugOxhoCC8gQAvD_BwE

then why do so many otherwise sane people report that they do? This type of uninformed condescension wears very thin from those who have zero hands on experience and simply pontificate from their armchairs

It‘s the why it works I find fascinating..

If there was ever a snake oil product, that is it. You are not going to hear a difference in ground cables. It is either grounded or it is not. The reason the ground cable provided with some turntables is super thin gauge is because it prevents a solid or rigid connection, as that would be a path for vibration to travel on. The thin gauge is sort of absorbing vibration like a spring rather than transferring it. You can just use any thin 22 or 24 gauge wire from say an auto parts store or hardware store. If you fancy expensive silver, then use that...it ain't going to make one bit of difference in the sound. No ground? Well then you have an issue(s), such as hum, buzz, erroneous noise etc...

the moment progress in commercial earth box construction appears to have stagnated at the “I can make my recipe sound more esoteric than yours“ stage, with no real justification given as to why certain ingredients are being added.

This has lead to the brute force approach, where bigger is better, instead of a smarter is better mindset focused on uncovering the actual physics at play

sounds like a worthwhile avenue of research; if you can shed more light on the functionality of earth boxes and simplify their construction kudos on you..

This looks like a galvanic cell as opposed to a battery. So something as simple as a copper wire with aluminum sheet that makes the current pass through a conductive medium like graphene or the like should draw "noise" out of the wire to the larger surface of aluminum or equivalent. Still researching.

I’ve followed the Entreq website of listed ingredients along with installing of an electrical outlet on my grounding box that serves my dac and server. The only difference is that I’ve plugged the grounding box into my conditioner vs the wall outlet Entreq states , for me in my system it yields better results. 
 

I also used more wires and material in my box previously , then I read the updated Entreq site and others where they use a single 2 meter long silver wire with multiple layers of ingredients and multiple compartments and implemented the same.

I’d say for me the biggest improvements in SQ was following Entreq in the size and weight of the grounding box matches the size od component it’s grounding.

My amp box is bigger and weights more then my Accuphase A 65 amp and that made a huge difference vs the smaller box I used previously. The amp weights over 90 lbs and the new grounding box had to be filled at the desired location because I wasn’t going to pick it up and move it at 60 yrs old.

What steps have you taken to avoid redundancy, and ensure that all the listed ingredients are active, and indeed serve a useful purpose in the functioning of the grounding box?

Very impressive box ingredient list and system Wow!  I took a much simpler tact (on my modest system) after doing limited research with positive results as well. I made 2- 6x6 boxes from scrape melamine wood. Lined inside with copper plates and conductive copper tape. Filled with 45% rock salt, 45% horticulture charcoal, 10% fines and 1” pieces of tourmaline.  Used basic OFC copper 16 ga speaker wire +/- twisted together with spades and banana plugs. One box has both speaker - connected.  Second box is plugged into wall outlet ground only and connected to the chassis grounds on my power conditioner and TT preamp.  Substantial SQ improvement. I have pics on my system list.

Here is what is inside my DIY boxes.

DIY Grounding Box Ingredients.

Magnetic mat placed at the bottom of box.

Crystals- Various types of Tourmalines, Quartz, Topaz

Minerals- Graphite, Graphene, Manganese Dioxide, Iron oxide, Zinc Sulphate, Carbon.

Wire- 10-gauge 9999 silver wire, chopped up 9999 silver ribbon pieces, 10-gauge 999 copper. Aluminum pieces.

Copper 101 sheets, copper chop, silver pieces.

Graphene Oxide.

Shungite 200 grams total. 100 main box 50 each speaker boxes. Plus, I added another pound of raw Shungite. ½lb to main box ¼lb to each speaker box.

Rochelle salt 2 pounds. 1 pound main, ½ pound speaker boxes.

Oil Dry compound placed outside of copper sheets for “earth”.

And of course, a few large wooden cigar boxes.

Note: I just added pictures of these DIY boxes at the end of my systems page,

ozzy

bugredmachine,

Well, I have each speaker negative terminal connected via a silver wire to (2) small separate different DIY boxes. The amps and subs are also connected via a silver solid wire to one large DIY box with a separate terminal on each end. The Dac, etc. are connected to the Entreq Silver Tellus via a couple of their Atlantis grounding cables.

These are all signal ground connections. I used to be able to hear a faint low-level sound through the speakers from the tube amps at about 4’ away. Today, I have to practically put my ear inside the speaker to even hear try to hear anything.

Of course, that is without music playing. LOL!

And the sound quality is amazing these days very deep sound stage. I am impressed.

ozzy

I would not connect your negative terminal to anything electrical ground (which would include a copper pipe in many homes). You will have a ground loop and it will be unpleasant for your gear. 

Proceed with caution.

Ozzy, is anything else connected to the box, or just the one speaker negative to one box that is its own terminus?

I have my speaker's negative terminal grounded into one of my DIY grounding boxes. If anyone is interested, I can share the ingredients. And perhaps some pictures on my systems page. 

Others with more experience in this type of grounding can answer.

ozzy

Please help me to understand, I'm curious to try this speaker grounding tweak since my speaker cables go directly into a floor hole and are suspended in the rafters of my basement.

So I can run a wire from the black '--' speaker terminal to either the copper water pipes below (the panel box ground runs directly to an outside copper ground rod) or since it would be easy to drive a grounding rod underneath the speakers this is prefered? I can also easily do this at the amp '-' and compare the two spots and the two grounding strategies..

Thanks much.

tksteingraber,

Always keep an open mind and experiment. You will not only improve your listening pleasure but also have fun on the journey.

ozzy

A copper grounding rod can prove rather effective. 

I have found that sometimes logic doesn’t always translate to audio reality. Especially when it comes to all things in this hobby.

Ozzy, completely agree...being new to this hobby for a little over a year now I am continually amazed how all sorts of tweaks make a big difference.   You need to have an open mind that non-logical changes may have a positive impact on your system.  The only way to know is give it a try with an open mind.  Too many seem to have bias before getting started.  I always thought the best way to improve sound is upgrade components...not anymore.  Nps 1260, fuses, shuman generators, ground boxes, power conditioners, acoustic treatment, helmholz resonators, cables, optical FMC’s, and I’m only a little over a year in.  Mind bending to me.

I'll try grounding my negative speaker terminal to earth ground rod 

bury a large copper plate or large piece of scrap with about 3‘ cover and water during dry weather  -  have used this for RF for decades. Even a car radiator works well.

Ozzy, it sounded like you were thinking about running a wire from the Entreq to the duplex ground. That would seem to defeat the Entreq as the path of least resistance would be the component to the duplex ground. So why not just try the duplex ground or ground rod w/o the Entreq to see if they are equal in reducing noise? I believe these purchased boxes are no more than representatives of our earth(dirt, etc.) and the cheapest way to replicate them is to go straight to ground. The bigger the boxes, the better the reduction, i.e. the more "dirt" they represent.🤷‍♂️

I'll try grounding my negative speaker terminal to earth ground rod this weekend after I change out the purple fuses first in case there is a short I am not anticipating. I have tried grounding the mounting bolts of the drivers to the earth rod with zero effect.

observations do not concur with established theory

approach 1. conclusion: observations are flawed

outcome: status quo preserved

approach 2. conclusion: further investigation is warranted

new or modified theory proposed that aligns with observations

theory tested >

null hypothesis formulated, rejected or not,

theory rejected, theory accepted for further testing, theory modified or new theory proposed,

theory tested > …etc etc.. outcome: Scientific progress is made, even if we reject 10 hypotheses

my own experiments have lead me to conclude that there are things going on within electrical fields that theory clearly states shouldn‘t, and based on the anecdotal reports of many audiophiles I am not alone. I view this as an opportunity for scientific advancement rather than something to be dismissed in a condescending manner.

There are just too many people independently reporting similar findings for them to be dismissed out of hand.

cakyol,

I have found that sometimes logic doesn’t always translate to audio reality. Especially when it comes to all things in this hobby.

ozzy

bugredmachine,

Ok, thanks for the response on the NPS 1260. I may try it anyway...

Question: Grounding from the outlet. If not to the Entreq or my DIY versions, then grounded to what? The chassis?

ozzy

I was speaking to the HF NS 1260 compound. Yes, reducing noise is auditory but the compound should not be needed for this activity.

You probably had a ground loop which you eliminated by plugging it into a star connnection. 

@cakyol i guess these grounding connections to a ground box solved my speaker’s grounding issues.  Loving it!   Amp and DAC don’t seem to benefit from the box's.  Crazy stuff…

.  

@bugredmachine i agree with your comment above on auditory improvement on a ground…UNTIL I plugged my speakers into the ground box. Gobsmacking sound improvement. Better than spending thousands of $’s on component upgrades…My ears tell me the truth!