tecknik,
Well I am still experimenting. I have removed the Russ Andrews ground lead to my Niagara 7000. I think the Niagara does more ground clean up by itself.
So, today I have the Russ Andrews unit leads to the chassis of my Lumin X1 power supply and the JL Audio CR-1.
I am still running separate signal grounds from the rca’s on the equipment to my Entreq/ DIY grounding boxes.
ozzy
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I just ordered a Russ Andrews plug in router. Thanks to those who mentioned it. There is a sale going on, I got it at 25% off. Not sure how long it will take to receive but I will have 60 days to evaluate it.
I’m going to try it in all areas including into my DIY grounding box, Entreq box and maybe just some chassis grounding.
ozzy
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I ask this question because the Entreq Atlantia cable sells for about $1600. This seems rather expensive for a short grounding wire.
I have tried 10-gauge copper and 18-gauge silver. Each gives a slightly different sound.
ozzy
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Thanks for the comments. It is a signal ground not an AC ground.
It is sort of remarkable in the way the soundstage stage solidifies with this type of grounding.
I've just got to zero in on the proper gage. I agree that the cost for a Entreq Atlantis cable is ridiculous that's why I would like to know what it consists of.
ozzy
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That's what I think. Do you think 16-gauge silver to be ok?
ozzy
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Then why is the Entreq Atlantis cable $1600?
I have found an old description of one of their cables:
"Our top cables Apollo & Olympus are made of Silver, Cotton and Wood.
The silver conductors are twisted by our own developed system and then threated with high presure. This insure you will get best possible performance together with Entreq groundboxes. Simply, since they are developed by the same constructor for best performance. 1* 15 AWG conductor made by 4 different AWG´s twisted pure silver threads and threated with our high pressure process."
ozzy
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I agree with the cost being outrageous. I wish some "rich guy" would take one apart and reveal the insides.
Surprising though, the grounding boxes do work well. I use it with my Lumin X1 and with my JL Audio CR-1 crossover. I have a separate DIY box on my Amps and other smaller DIY versions on my speakers. This seems to be the best configuration.
Funny though, grounding the amps and/or subwoofers together with the other equipment degrades the sound quality giving it sort of a congested sound.
I am only talking about signal ground. That is; from the grounding of a rca or spade input/output. Not AC or chassis grounding.
ozzy
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I'm expecting today some 16 ga .999 silver wire that I ordered thru Amazon to try.
BTW, drpie,which wire is the more subtle?
ozzy
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Just connected up the new .999 16 ga silver wire. I used no connectors. Made a loop at one end to go over the outside of an unused RCA and then used an RCA cap to keep it in place. At the other end into the Entreq I made the wire end into an arrow shape that then went inside the banana terminal.
Thus far, I think I hit the right gauge/wire.
What this type of grounding does is it creates a more solid stable image. Delicate nuances that once were buried in the music become more apparent.
ozzy
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Thanks for commenting. I was beginning to think that I was the only one using this type of grounding.
BTW, the silver 3 foot 16 ga .999 wire cost me $21 including shipping. Compared to the $1600 for the Entreq Atlantis.
ozzy
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afg101, Thank you for that information.
I have been experimenting now quite a bit with this grounding method. It is better to separate digital from analog into 2 different grounding boxes. Luckily, I built several DIY boxes that IMHO are better than the Entreq,
What I am hearing is a deeper soundstage. Music that I am way too familiar with such as example: CCR "Green River" perhaps not the best recording but one of my favorite tunes, I can clearly hear brother Tom strumming along in the top left of center quadrant. Previously it was buried in the mix. Also listening to Linda sing "Blue Bayou" is really captivating.
ozzy
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There doesn’t seem to be much interest in this thread. Too bad though because it really is the great unknown as to the level of improvement in sound quality it can provide. I mean what I am hearing is a deeper, wider, clearer- soundstage. All positives, no downside.
It’s sort of like star grounding the signal cabling but with a base sink that dissipates any noise (present or unheard buried deep) that may be present in the sound quality.
ozzy
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Atmasphere,
Thank you and I respect your opinion, but I consider it just your opinion and not actual experience.
ozzy
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tecknik,
Thank you for that information. I have also found that different lengths can change the equation as to gauge size.
Right now, I have noticed that if I connect my mono blocks to the same grounding box, and if I press my ear up close to one speaker, I can hear a faint noise. But if I separate the amps to 2 different grounding boxes there is zero noise.
I have also noticed some other very interesting changes that sometimes defy "my" logic.
ozzy
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I am using tube mono blocks, which with tubes, generally have some sort of low-level noise. But as I stated I could tell even that noise to dissipate. I am pretty much now using 16 gauge solid .999 silver and have been happy with the results. But I do have some heavier gauge (12ga) running from my amps. I also have one length of Entreq Atlantis cable, that was the reason I started this thread. I still can’t understand why it is so expensive.
And, in addition to my Entreq Silver Tellus and my large DIY box I also have a couple of smaller DIY boxes that I use at my negative speaker terminals.
ozzy
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Ok, but my ears can hear the improvement and my brain can appreciate it. If it can't be measured it must not be? It reminds me of the age-old topic of power cords not making a difference.
ozzy
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Again, I did not perceive any problem BEFORE I tried these signal grounding units. What a difference in the depth, bass, treble, soundstage and musically quality I gained!
ozzy
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Ralph,
I also had a residual noise when I used your Atmashere amps. It is inherent in tube amplifier designs.
With all due respect, you really need to try this type of grounding before you comment. It would probably surprise you, as it did me.
ozzy
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jetter2,
Thak you for the comment. Too me it is a never-ending quest for the best sound I can obtain/afford.
ozzy
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Atmasphere,
The Entreq box I own has 4 terminals and my DIY has 2 separate connections in one box. Entreq also makes units that have several independent sections in one box.
ozzy
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Actually, the chassis ground is not a good place for this type of grounding.
I am using a ground wire attached only to the rca, xlr, bnc, spade lug,etc. ground on the components only. Seems like it should be the same but in function it is not. Then with the ground leads they need to go to some type of grounding sink.
There are many of these available. My DIY tries to duplicate mother earth. That is with a magnetic pad at the bottom of a sectioned off earth section then with many minerals, crystals, metals etc. etc on top mixed with a few other liquid chemicals.
The more of your system that can be connected this way the deeper the sound image goes. It is quite pleasant and impressive.
ozzy
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Grounding the speakers is best done at the amp speaker outputs than at the speaker inputs. Results in a quieter, purer sound.
ozzy
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Thanks, Ralph, for your continued comments. You do know your stuff.
It was not actually a buzz that I heard, but a low-level noise riding along with no music playing. But only if I pressed my ear up against the speaker drivers.
After signal grounding I no longer hear it, but the depth of the music quality improved greatly.
This seems to be unknown territory that needs more research.
ozzy
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Here is a quote I found from What’s Best Forum, I thought it would help explain.
"Signal noise kills transients and detail. The more noise you have in your ground signal, the less of the finer areas of your music will be heard. Of course, some people have more noise than others so its difference in degree is, of course, obvious but it’s not until you remove the noise that you understand its negative and damaging effects.
The Entreq grounding boxes work with signal ground noise. Although noise from other bits of kit can be only very slight, that doesn’t mean it’s not having a negative effect on the performance of your entire system. The Entreq range of grounding boxes fixes this as they drain off the noise in the signal path, thus opening up the sound.
- Improved clarity and harmonics.
- Improved focus and texture.
- Improved air and transient details.
- Improved sound floor.
- Improved smoothness and fluidity."
ozzy
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bugremachine,
The pictures made your boxes much larger than I thought they were. My DIYer is about 18" x 24" x 8".
Also, when you are completed try some brass spikes underneath.
ozzy
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Interesting. I have always separated the ac grounding from the signal grounding.
ozzy
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bugremachine,
You are probably right about the rca ground being the same as the chassis ground. But my personal experience has not been good when I mixed the chassis ground and the signal ground. In several cases I got hum.
My solution has been and is now to keep them separate. Perhaps some time, I will check it with an ohm meter.
Question: Are you also referring to the ground on the AC outlet being the same as the signal ground?
ozzy
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Thank you. It is refreshing to be able to post on audiogon without the various crazies chiming in.
ozzy
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richmon,
Just read the Stereophile article you linked, some very interested stuff. Thank you!
ozzy
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bugrIedmachine.
I wonder if I ran a ground wire from the AC outlet ground to my Entreq with the signal grounds, would be a good thing?
ozzy
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I also have made some DIY speaker ground boxes and was also amazed at how well they work.
Be curious to hear how the NPS 1260 works, I have some but have not tried it on those connectors.
ozzy
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bugredmachine,
Ok, thanks for the response on the NPS 1260. I may try it anyway...
Question: Grounding from the outlet. If not to the Entreq or my DIY versions, then grounded to what? The chassis?
ozzy
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cakyol,
I have found that sometimes logic doesn’t always translate to audio reality. Especially when it comes to all things in this hobby.
ozzy
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tksteingraber,
Always keep an open mind and experiment. You will not only improve your listening pleasure but also have fun on the journey.
ozzy
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I have my speaker's negative terminal grounded into one of my DIY grounding boxes. If anyone is interested, I can share the ingredients. And perhaps some pictures on my systems page.
Others with more experience in this type of grounding can answer.
ozzy
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bugredmachine,
Well, I have each speaker negative terminal connected via a silver wire to (2) small separate different DIY boxes. The amps and subs are also connected via a silver solid wire to one large DIY box with a separate terminal on each end. The Dac, etc. are connected to the Entreq Silver Tellus via a couple of their Atlantis grounding cables.
These are all signal ground connections. I used to be able to hear a faint low-level sound through the speakers from the tube amps at about 4’ away. Today, I have to practically put my ear inside the speaker to even hear try to hear anything.
Of course, that is without music playing. LOL!
And the sound quality is amazing these days very deep sound stage. I am impressed.
ozzy
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Here is what is inside my DIY boxes.
DIY Grounding Box Ingredients.
Magnetic mat placed at the bottom of box.
Crystals- Various types of Tourmalines, Quartz, Topaz
Minerals- Graphite, Graphene, Manganese Dioxide, Iron oxide, Zinc Sulphate, Carbon.
Wire- 10-gauge 9999 silver wire, chopped up 9999 silver ribbon pieces, 10-gauge 999 copper. Aluminum pieces.
Copper 101 sheets, copper chop, silver pieces.
Graphene Oxide.
Shungite 200 grams total. 100 main box 50 each speaker boxes. Plus, I added another pound of raw Shungite. ½lb to main box ¼lb to each speaker box.
Rochelle salt 2 pounds. 1 pound main, ½ pound speaker boxes.
Oil Dry compound placed outside of copper sheets for “earth”.
And of course, a few large wooden cigar boxes.
Note: I just added pictures of these DIY boxes at the end of my systems page,
ozzy
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gavman,
You should never try to explain this hobby to someone outside of the audiophile community. You will be branded as a nut who spends money foolishly on stupid things. I remember in the old days when I tried to talk to the regulars about my stereo, they would immediately bring up there Bose stereo...
And NEVER try to convince an EE about the electrical benefits of the power cords etc...
ozzy
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Thank you gavman for that very helpful information.
I can say that my DIY boxes do seem to be as good as the Entreq Silver Tellus (if perhaps better). I have done a lot of research, and a lot of trial and error in the ingredients that I chose for my DIY versions. Combined they all make a big difference in the sound depth and all the other attributes you have referenced. With the Entreq and my 3 DIY versions I have been able to separate digital, analog and speakers.
All that being said I would like to try a Tripoint unit someday, but they are a little costly,
ozzy
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gavman,
Thank you. As I stated early on in this thread, I still cannot understand what makes the grounding wires so expensive. I am using mostly solid .9999 silver 16-18 ga wire on my DIY boxes, but I do have 2 sets of the Entreq Atlantis cables on the Entreq box. And they are better than my solid silver wires. At least on the Entreq box.
ozzy
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I have seen the insides of some of the Entreq units and it mostly looks like the insides of my DIY version. Only mine looks better...
ozzy
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I tried the SGS and it did not work as well as my DIY or the Entreq. At least in my system.
ozzy
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bugredmachine,
Also add some Shungite.
ozzy
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twoleftears,
I would like to try some king of AC grounding devices, but without the need for a grounding rod.
ozzy
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gavman,
Zebrano Signature.
ozzy
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jew16384,
Thank you for your post but I'm sorry, I don't understand.
ozzy
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bugredmachine,
You can get Carbon at the tropical fish store look for activated pure carbon. The Graphene and Graphene oxide was purchased via Ebay. Most of the other items can be purchased on Amazon.
ozzy
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twoleftears,
On the Puritan City, what does the green wire connect up to? Chassis ground, Entreq boxes?
ozzy
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twoleftears,
So, the Groundmaster City costs $250 and cannot be used without the other device the Routemaster that costs $700. Is that correct? Why not sell them as a set?
It also seems that it should be able to be plugged into a Entreq that has 4 connections.
ozzy
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Just talked to a rep from Puritan. He advised against using the Puritan Grandmaster City version to connect up to my Entreq.
ozzy
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