Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

thanks for the reply, could be that i should look at a new streamer.  friend sells Arunder.  i have an excellent Denafrips DAC and a Rega integrated, but could look into their latest offerings.  i attend the Symphony even though its a 3hr flight from where i live out in the country.  and yes i even my aging ears can tell the difference between live musicians.  so their is still hope.

@lalitk 

I hold out hope that if we are patient with one another and just share what has worked for us, the curious will see for themselves….or not. Either way, posts like I just shared with @malibu457 might be applicable to him/her/they or it might be applicable to someone who might visit this thread next week or next month or next year. LOL…or not.

I recognize that not everyone is after what I’m after…but I hope that my posts in reply to malibu’s posts were a kind nudge to communicate what I and many others are trying to accomplish isn’t remotely close to what he’s trying to accomplish. Happiness can be found on both roads by different people…we’ve been down his road, he hasn’t been down ours.

@ghasley @nyev

While I appreciate your posts, but I’m afraid you’re not going to change the closed-off mentality of folks like @malibu457. Most people know it is the provenance of a file that is of utmost importance over a particular format. There are plenty of files over streaming that sounds better over downloads, CD or Vinyl and vice versa.

Just read some of @malibu457 posts on other streamer threads,

@ghasley 

+1

Well put indeed.

Charles

@malibu457

what do you get specifically for the extra $9500? and can a streamed file compete with say a hi-res download from Presto music?

Hi Malibu. Let me begin by saying I am not familiar with presto music. My own, likely flawed, methodology has to do with evaluating four or five tracks from different artists. I choose the tracks based on subjective listening first to their redcook cd versions ripped to the internal drive of my server. The tracks were chosen because I found the redbook versions to be well recorded. I have then also acquired those same tracks in the same resolution from a few of the usual online services. I then compared the tracks by listening. I found no discernable differences in listening. This was over a period of several different servers (Macbook Pro, Mac Mini, Innuos Zenith and now a Grimm MU1). As I moved through the servers over the years, the streamed versions always trailed qualitatively. The Innuos narrowed the gap considerably, which was the epiphany for me. Better streamers (and better ethernet chain) made a difference. With the Grimm those same tracks become virtually identical on playback. With the Grimm’s 4fs upsampling engaged, the upsampled track streamed from Qobuz is so close that I can’t tell them apart from the non upsampled redbook local file. The upsampled local file does pull ever so slightly ahead but again, the sound quality differences are minute.

What does all this mean? To me I believe I have, in my system, minimized the degradation that must be occurring with the internet sourced streamed file. This is in my system to my ears in my room. I hear the differences and I hear the differences become indistinguishable. How can we be certain the streamed version is the exact, identical file? We can’t but with careful listening we make an educated assumption. There is some music that hasnt been remastered, just replicated online…ripped by the service. How can we be sure that online hirez streamed files are really higher resolution? We can’t. We just have to trust our ears and some software analysis. Some of us here have experimented with software analysis and compared the streamed files with local files.

So, what does all this mean and why should you trust me? You shouldn’t trust me….you should trust you. You should do as you are doing and trust your own ears. Your impressions of the spatial cues, tone, texture, dynamics, frequency extremes, etc will either tell you that you are on to something or there is no difference. Your results are applicable to you and that’s the cool thing about the hobby. If you find no difference then for you, there is no difference and no need to chase anything “more”. But if you do hear a meaningful difference between a streamed track and the same track stored locally, then (provided you are curious) you owe it to yourself to understand why. Everyone on Audiogon recognizes this is the point of departure from a sane and casual system approach and the far more costly approach of optimizing the chain. We all set our own $$ parameters and the energy required to get there. Its either worth it to you to go there or it isnt…there is no right or wrong decision but there is also no universal template to objectively apply to others. Our values and resources are different.

With absolutely no offense intended, if your local files sound identical to those streamed over a Node2i then several things are at play. There is a bottleneck limiting sound quality. Either your system’s ability to resolve musical material is “maxed out” at your present level or your local server is compromised to an extent that the best sound you can get stops at a certain level. I bought a Node not long ago thinking it would be fine for a minimalist setup in a teritiary room in my home. I let it burn in and it frankly sounded muffled and flat…in a word, it sounded broken. I then moved it into my main system and it sounded seriously compromised. So, if you are happy, then you have achieved an appropriate system balance for you and your goals. That’s great and you will get nothing from me but sincere congratulations because enjoying our music is what its all about. Please believe me, I wish I could have stopped long ago on this journey but once you’ve made a system modification that narrows the sound quality gap between streamed internet files from streamed local files then there is no denying musical material is being compromised. The mere act of improving the streamed internet file vs the local file is a clear indication to me that the data is there for the taking if you are willing to go after it.

Think of your streamer as a disc transport. You would agree wouldnt you that there are differences in sound quality between transports right? Do yourself a favor though, if you are convinced you have an optimized setup then DO NOT go listen to a truly optimized setup…it will be a costly mistake. You say your hearing is diminished but I hear the differences at every frequency I am able to hear and I really sense the differences with soundstage and spatial cues. I get it that you can’t imagine HOW there could be a difference worth “$9,500 extra” but there are differences. The fallacy of these arguments is humorous because some assume anyone who spends more than they did are being duped out of their money. LOL. Smart enough to make it but not smart enough to hold onto it? LOL. I contend that to those who deny additional value exists above a certain level or pricepoint just aren’t thinking clearly. But I get it, sometimes not knowing what you are missing is the path to maximum musical enjoyment.

I think my experience adding the PhoenixUSB Reclocker to my Innuos Zenith might be a good example of how your streaming performance can be upgraded with more investment. In my case it added precision in the sense of greater focus and clarity for individual sounds, soundstage depth and cleaner separation, and overall more well defined positioning of sounds. It’s not a small difference. I’m hoping that the Grimm MU1 will level these and other qualities up yet again, but the jury is out on that one until I get my unit in my system and broken in. I’ve also realized that I’m seeking a flatter frequency response in the bass and midrange, than my current DAC module seems to offer (coloration is boosted bass or recessed mids - not entirely sure which, or if it matters as it’s relative).  I’m not sure the MU1 will address that issue, as my testing of the outboard Merason DAC 1 seems to address the tonal issues, while being less resolving than my much more pricey Gryphon DAC (albeit with basic RCA cables that limit the DAC1’s performance until I get my new cables in)..

I’ve often wondered about my hearing. Tested about 5 years back, and my higher frequency sensitivity is going down, but nothing that is out of step and normal for my age. Maybe that’s the reason I no longer struggle with “brightness” in my system…. But I doubt it!

I was encouraged when I read that Dave Grohl was stating how he is totally deaf and can’t even communicate when he is at the checkout of a supermarket or out at a dinner in a restaurant. Here is the part I was encouraged by:

"My ears are still tuned in to certain frequencies, and if I hear something that’s slightly out of tune, or a cymbal that’s not bright enough or something like that, in the mix, I can f—ing hear the minutiae of everything that we have done to that song; I really can,"

Which maybe not saying much given their music, but that’s probably mean and unfair of me to say!

what do you get specifically for the extra $9500? and can a streamed file compete with say a hi-res download from Presto music?

@malibu457

but for those still able to hear….there are levels of magnitude more performance available. If you are saying I shouldnt spend more money on an Aurender, Taiko or Grimm because you can’t hear the difference….I guess I would have to disagree with your premise. The Node is a fine streamer and if it meets your qualitative threshold, thats awesome.

i am 73 so my hearing is going.  no point in spending $10000 on a streamer.  the Node 2i is just fine.

@johnah5 - could not agree more.  I wish I had a dime every time I heard these statements.  In the NYC area we have heard so much gear and we all scratch our heads every time someone brings a unit of some kind by for a listen and walks away with nothing special.  Plenty of dealers and reviews also.

Happy Listening.

@rockrider Yes it is!  Now I am waiting on Audionet who told me the same thing about their Stern Screen going completely dark!  I have covered the power buttons on my amps, so that screen is the last night sky pollution!

@fastfreight Thanks for the heads up!  I asked Mola Mola if the LEDs could be dimmed in May ‘22, and at that time they said “we are working on a firmware update that adds the functionality”, but I finally gave up checking for an update.  It is great to see they finally made it happen!

The latest Tambaqui update includes dimming / turning off the LED's!

Hey @grannyring 

I'd like to try that so I'm wondering, how do you bypass or turn off LEDs? I'm not aware of how to do so. I guess this has to do with you being a DIY guy and may be above my skill level.

LEDs add noise. Bypass and listen. In a well resolving system with a person who cares about such sonic things the sonic impact can be heard. Yes I am a crazy audiofool so try for yourself and let your own ears and system decide. 

"I've read that LEDs are noisy"

Don't believe everything you read an LED is a semiconductor and no more subject or vulnerable to noise than any other semiconductor. Most diodes including LED's are dead silent although they are often used in improper, flawed, poorly designed circuits so that the result is noise but that is the circuit not the diode.

I've read that LEDs are noisy and think it was over on AS. Everything matters for sure.

@fastfreight 

I started using the LinkUp 8 Network cable in 2021. I put it in my system one 1M section at a time. Each time I did, the system just got better. I am using the 22 AWG Yellow version. This cable has excellent bandwidth performing well top to bottom - the noise floor is significantly lowered. I've not heard cables in the $250-$1,000 range, but I've had other value cables and the LinkUp 8 is on-another-planet better. -I will be interested in your Muon AES cable observations. I'm also thinking about going to the Muon Pro to see if it can beat my ER + LPS - I like that it is passive (I know grannyring likes it better and that was on the Muon and I think Lalitk also liked the ENO better). And so if the Muon Pro works out, I could use my Paul Hynes SR4T LPS on my ONT & Router.

LEDs hurt the sound. I learned this long ago. I have disabled all the LEDs (possible) in my gear. 

“I tried alternating between LEDs on and off and lo and behold the highs and details returned with them turned off”

Innuos has a thing where they are always saying how noisy led’s can be.  It’s why they go “stealth mode” for the most part.  But this sounds like they must be really noisy!

@arafiq ​​​​@lalitk .  The Linkup ethernet cable is interesting to me if it beats my Supra cat 8.  There are two versions; 22 AWG and 26 AWG.  I assume it is the 22 AWG you are using?  Thanks!  Trying a new NA Muon AES Cable tonight, comparing to my K-S Elation.  Still using the Aries G2.1 and waiting on my Grimm!

Soon!  I am planning on putting the Grimm MU1 in my main set up, running 
Roon Core and AES into my Tambaqui.  My other system and bedroom endpoints will be on the network.

Thanks for answering my question @nyev!

Also, in case anyone is interested, the SOtM sNH-10G has been running in and I tried it again today with the same results. However I tried alternating between LEDs on and off and lo and behold the highs and details returned with them turned off. Hallelujah!

“Both Phoenix products are absolutely fantastic with the Zenith Mk3 though.”

@nyev

They were designed specifically to enhance performance of entire Innuous line except their flagship - Statement. Their incompatibility or adverse effects with any non-Innuos products is not at all surprising to me.

adasdad

I think that any music lover’s solution to hearing their favorite songs should be easy, and seamlessly, integrated into their own physical environment. 

Not much in high end audio is easy and seamless. Why should streaming be any different?

This digital streaming thing is a strange science. There are those who insist that their implementation of a particular solution is the one and only parameter when it comes to achieving audio nirvana. I think that any music lover’s solution to hearing their favorite songs should be easy, and seamlessly, integrated into their own physical environment. 

Hi @rockrider , catching up…. I did try the N20 with and without my PhoenixNet in the chain.  I think I mentioned somewhere in the many posts above, that while the PhoenixNet sounds fantastic with my Innuos gear and definitely improves things, I felt it did add a tension to the N20 that I didn’t like.  Likewise, I tried adding the PhoenixUSB to the N20’s USB output.  While things became more resolving, they also became less energetic and flat.  My conclusion before was that Innuos and Aurender gear are allergic to each other!

Both Phoenix products are absolutely fantastic with the Zenith Mk3 though.

The MU1 and my Shunyata cables should arrive in 1-2 weeks, hopefully.

@arafiq 

For clarity, this is the LinkUp 8 I use, it is Yellow cable rather than black. I am unsure if they are exactly the same but they appear so based on the description. - 

Amazon.com: LINKUP - [GHMT & DSX8000 Certified Cat8 Ethernet Patch Cable S/FTP 22AWG Double Shielded Solid Cable | 2000MHz 2GHz 40Gbps | 5th-Gen Ethernet LAN Network 40G Structure Wires |Yellow| 1 M (3.3ft) : Electronics

I'd agree with @lalitk on his comments on the sound quality of this cable: vs. Supra, it has significantly better resolution, which yields better, more natural flow and ease to the sound. 

Sorry there was a typo. It’s not a router but a switch. 
I need it because I have to connect my room server and the streamer from the same wall socket. 

@arafiq

I no longer own ENO streaming package, so I have not compared the LINKUP with ENO Ag LAN. Are you able to eliminate router in your configuration?

Network socket in media room >> LinkUp Cable >> Eno filter >> Eno streaming cable shorter one >> streamer.

@lalitk Just ordered one in 10 ft length. So the plan is to use the LinkUp as follows ...

Network socket in media room >> LinkUp Cable >> router >> Eno streaming cable (long one) >> Eno filter >> Eno streaming cable shorter one >> streamer.

Do you think this cable is better than the one that came with the Eno AG package? I'm quite happy with that cable.

Thanks @lalitk and @pokey77 

Based on what you're telling me and the price, it seems to be a no brainer.

Since I need a longer run (about 10 ft), I'm thinking of going with this one ...

Let me know if this is the right spec.

@arafiq

I found LINKUP cable to be more balanced, open and detailed over Supra. In my system, I couldn’t go back to Supra after listening to LINKUP :-)

@arafiq 

I can answer that for you. LinkUp 8 handily beats the Supra Cat8+ in my system. My entire chain is LinkUp 8 with the exception of a Supra 8+ from ONT to Router. I may go to LinkUp 8 on that connection as well in the future. The great thing, as for now, LinkUp 8 is less expensive than Supra. Give it a shot, but be warned it has a long burnin time.

@lalitk how does the LinkUp Cable compare to the Supra cat 8? 

+1, @pokey77 

The LinkUp LAN cable is a **new** reference for high performance digital systems without the high dollars price tag. Anyone putting together a streaming system, should audition this cable. The only caveat, the 22AWG version cable is bit stiff so no sharp bends. If you need flexibility, try the 26AWG version. 

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

Looking forward to reading more about @nyev’s audio journey!

@rockrider 

I cannot answer your question from experience, but I've read many accounts of those who are streaming files from hard drives have experienced better sound quality with improved Network cables and switches. I don't understand why, but I believe them as I put significant stock in personal experience.

The way I would burn in the switch is just to stream music 24/7 for at least a few weeks; so just leave your streamer playing even if it is on another input. That is the fastest way to get through the burn in process and I've done it many times recently and in the past.

I would suggest that you also consider trying some other Network cables. This is based on my reading here and on other forums where a few people have found that while the BJC stuff is decent, you can do better. Here's a cable that is $38 and is quite good, Lalit will attest to that as well. Amazon.com: LINKUP - [GHMT & DSX8000 Certified Cat8 Ethernet Patch Cable S/FTP 22AWG Double Shielded Solid Cable | 2000MHz 2GHz 40Gbps | 5th-Gen Ethernet LAN Network 40G Structure Wires |Yellow| 1 M (3.3ft) : Electronics I use it throughout my system and it beat three other value products I tried. I do not have any experience with the more expensive Network cables, but many here do.

@pokey77

Do you think it is important for the switch and cable to burn-in even when the digital signal isn’t transmitting through them?

@lalitk

I went all-in on the switch, special caps/silver wires etc. My Ethernet cables are simple Certified Blue Jeans cables. But the only difference is addition of the switch plus another certified Blue Jeans cable.

Thanks for the insights. I thought this was relevant to the conversation since @nyev is using the PhoenixNET switch, and also observed less detail etc when using an N20.

@rockrider

One would assume that! In grand scheme of things, SoTM recommends using few different configuration of their own LAN cables to get the best out of sNH-10G switch. Not to mention two layers of upgrade option on their switch. I do not know, how deep did you go but it can get pretty expensive with their cabling and LPS.

@lalitk 

@rockrider 

"What switch did you try? The N20 LAN is 2x isolated so a subpar switch probably do more harm than good :-)" The other question is "did you let the SoTM switch burn in?" It may need several+ weeks to get there, maybe even more. I've never owned that switch, so I'm not sure on burn in for it, but I can tell you even Network cable can take some time to burn in; I've heard the "highs rolled off dramatically" in a Supra Cat8+ cable that has 1000s of hours but had been in a box for a year. I put it back in my system recently, then reversed direction after a few weeks, and it took near another week before it opened up and all the resolution was there. Was frustrating, but patience let me find the correct orientation. I also had a power conditioner that had literally 15 years of use go back in on the network side of my system a few months back and it took over ten days to open up, but it was very easy to hear once it did. Just a few of my recent observations. Anyway, good luck in your journey. Sorry about the off topic OP; enjoying the thread.

I thought the SOtM sNH-10G plus sPS-500 would be a good addition. 

“I recently added an audiophile switch (with LPS), and I was very surprised to hear the highs rolled off dramatically, compared to Ethernet directly connected to my router.”
@rockrider 

What switch did you try? The N20 LAN is 2x isolated so a subpar switch probably do more harm than good :-) 

Hey @nyev, while you are waiting for the MU1 to arrive…

Did you try the N20 without the PhoenixNET in the Ethernet chain, while using the AES output?

I just skimmed through the conversation and couldn’t find an answer. 

I’m asking because I recently added an audiophile switch (with LPS), and I was very surprised to hear the highs rolled off dramatically, compared to Ethernet directly connected to my router.  This was strangely so even though I was only playing my reference files from an internal SSD within my N20.  Not even streaming files through the Ethernet!  Really surprised me.  Needless to say, the new switch is no longer in my system!

arafiq

I think there’s a problem in audiogon where the same notification is sent multiple times. It happened to me also where I received the same notification more than ten times.

Thanks for the confirmation. I've never seen it happen here before.

I did once submit a post and it made a half-dozen or so copies. I noticed it and deleted the dupes. That caused quite a kerfuffle because some members insisted a moderator was censoring the thread.

I think there’s a problem in audiogon where the same notification is sent multiple times. It happened to me also where I received the same notification more than ten times. Doesn’t mean the sender is doing it. 

Okay, let’s move on lol…. 

lordmelton

You have now sent an 11th notification to me ...

I haven’t sent any notice to you, so the image you posted is rather weird. I can’t explain it. My last post in this thread (before this one) was 03-03-2023 at 08:14am . You can see for yourself, @lordmelton.

... if you want to settle for 88 or 96 Khz that’s up to you and your low fidelity and low self esteem.

Ha ha no I wouldn’t settle for 96 kHz.

@arafiq 

@lalitk 

X2