I've recently become interested in the Grimm MU1. While reviews of top end players from Innuos, Aurender and Antipodes and others are typically all very positive, the tone of the many pro reviews of the Grimm MU1 go far, far beyond, with some reviews resorting to using superlatives and gushing of positive system transformation and not being able to stop listening to material, etc.. HiFi Advice and Steve Huff (actually calls it "magic") have such reviews.
Given the delay in availability of the Innuos Pulsar which I'm told will be better than my current Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB reclocker, I am interested in replacing my streaming setup with a one-box solution that includes a high-precision clock. The new streamer will continue to feed my Gryphon Diablo 300's DAC module, which I have no interest in replacing.
I'm actually a fan of Innuos, after they improved the sound of my Zenith with firmware updates and after I added their PhoenixUSB reclocker. I appreciate this commitment to improving sound quality which is why I was so interested in the Pulsar.
The trigger for considering an upgrade is not for improved sound, but rather, to solve some issues I have with too many Audioquest power cords coiled and clumped together. I will get to lose one of them and one of my USB cords with a one-box streamer. I've noticed my sound is very sensitive to positioning of my AC cords and find I often need to re-adjust the PC feeding my amp to get proper sounding vocals at center stage. One of my subs also seems to be picking up AC noise when the crossover is set above 60Hz. The second trigger is simply system simplification, removing one box. All that said I don't really have any complaints regarding sound, and the PhoenixUSB reclocker truly did improve the sound of my Zenith.
While the Grimm MU1 has it's 4X upsampling up it's sleeve with reviewers absolutely glowing over this feature and it's extreme ability to separate tones to the left, right, front, and back far better than the rest, I don't see that Grimm has gone to any lengths with regard to power supply management in the way other brands do including Innuos. The MU1's ultra-simplistic interior doesn't bug me, but the lack of transformers and power management makes me wonder....
Are there any updates from folks who have directly compared the MU1 vs similarly classed streamers from the competition? Did you find it to be as revelatory as the pro reviewers found it? And, how does it compare to other streamers with it's 4X upsampling disabled? Does it sound like it suffers from it's lack of power management? I do see that the clock should be very good...
what do you get specifically for the extra $9500? and can a streamed file compete with say a hi-res download from Presto music?
Hi Malibu. Let me begin by saying I am not familiar with presto music. My own, likely flawed, methodology has to do with evaluating four or five tracks from different artists. I choose the tracks based on subjective listening first to their redcook cd versions ripped to the internal drive of my server. The tracks were chosen because I found the redbook versions to be well recorded. I have then also acquired those same tracks in the same resolution from a few of the usual online services. I then compared the tracks by listening. I found no discernable differences in listening. This was over a period of several different servers (Macbook Pro, Mac Mini, Innuos Zenith and now a Grimm MU1). As I moved through the servers over the years, the streamed versions always trailed qualitatively. The Innuos narrowed the gap considerably, which was the epiphany for me. Better streamers (and better ethernet chain) made a difference. With the Grimm those same tracks become virtually identical on playback. With the Grimm’s 4fs upsampling engaged, the upsampled track streamed from Qobuz is so close that I can’t tell them apart from the non upsampled redbook local file. The upsampled local file does pull ever so slightly ahead but again, the sound quality differences are minute.
What does all this mean? To me I believe I have, in my system, minimized the degradation that must be occurring with the internet sourced streamed file. This is in my system to my ears in my room. I hear the differences and I hear the differences become indistinguishable. How can we be certain the streamed version is the exact, identical file? We can’t but with careful listening we make an educated assumption. There is some music that hasnt been remastered, just replicated online…ripped by the service. How can we be sure that online hirez streamed files are really higher resolution? We can’t. We just have to trust our ears and some software analysis. Some of us here have experimented with software analysis and compared the streamed files with local files.
So, what does all this mean and why should you trust me? You shouldn’t trust me….you should trust you. You should do as you are doing and trust your own ears. Your impressions of the spatial cues, tone, texture, dynamics, frequency extremes, etc will either tell you that you are on to something or there is no difference. Your results are applicable to you and that’s the cool thing about the hobby. If you find no difference then for you, there is no difference and no need to chase anything “more”. But if you do hear a meaningful difference between a streamed track and the same track stored locally, then (provided you are curious) you owe it to yourself to understand why. Everyone on Audiogon recognizes this is the point of departure from a sane and casual system approach and the far more costly approach of optimizing the chain. We all set our own $$ parameters and the energy required to get there. Its either worth it to you to go there or it isnt…there is no right or wrong decision but there is also no universal template to objectively apply to others. Our values and resources are different.
With absolutely no offense intended, if your local files sound identical to those streamed over a Node2i then several things are at play. There is a bottleneck limiting sound quality. Either your system’s ability to resolve musical material is “maxed out” at your present level or your local server is compromised to an extent that the best sound you can get stops at a certain level. I bought a Node not long ago thinking it would be fine for a minimalist setup in a teritiary room in my home. I let it burn in and it frankly sounded muffled and flat…in a word, it sounded broken. I then moved it into my main system and it sounded seriously compromised. So, if you are happy, then you have achieved an appropriate system balance for you and your goals. That’s great and you will get nothing from me but sincere congratulations because enjoying our music is what its all about. Please believe me, I wish I could have stopped long ago on this journey but once you’ve made a system modification that narrows the sound quality gap between streamed internet files from streamed local files then there is no denying musical material is being compromised. The mere act of improving the streamed internet file vs the local file is a clear indication to me that the data is there for the taking if you are willing to go after it.
Think of your streamer as a disc transport. You would agree wouldnt you that there are differences in sound quality between transports right? Do yourself a favor though, if you are convinced you have an optimized setup then DO NOT go listen to a truly optimized setup…it will be a costly mistake. You say your hearing is diminished but I hear the differences at every frequency I am able to hear and I really sense the differences with soundstage and spatial cues. I get it that you can’t imagine HOW there could be a difference worth “$9,500 extra” but there are differences. The fallacy of these arguments is humorous because some assume anyone who spends more than they did are being duped out of their money. LOL. Smart enough to make it but not smart enough to hold onto it? LOL. I contend that to those who deny additional value exists above a certain level or pricepoint just aren’t thinking clearly. But I get it, sometimes not knowing what you are missing is the path to maximum musical enjoyment.
I think my experience adding the PhoenixUSB Reclocker to my Innuos Zenith might be a good example of how your streaming performance can be upgraded with more investment. In my case it added precision in the sense of greater focus and clarity for individual sounds, soundstage depth and cleaner separation, and overall more well defined positioning of sounds. It’s not a small difference. I’m hoping that the Grimm MU1 will level these and other qualities up yet again, but the jury is out on that one until I get my unit in my system and broken in. I’ve also realized that I’m seeking a flatter frequency response in the bass and midrange, than my current DAC module seems to offer (coloration is boosted bass or recessed mids - not entirely sure which, or if it matters as it’s relative). I’m not sure the MU1 will address that issue, as my testing of the outboard Merason DAC 1 seems to address the tonal issues, while being less resolving than my much more pricey Gryphon DAC (albeit with basic RCA cables that limit the DAC1’s performance until I get my new cables in)..
I’ve often wondered about my hearing. Tested about 5 years back, and my higher frequency sensitivity is going down, but nothing that is out of step and normal for my age. Maybe that’s the reason I no longer struggle with “brightness” in my system…. But I doubt it!
I was encouraged when I read that Dave Grohl was stating how he is totally deaf and can’t even communicate when he is at the checkout of a supermarket or out at a dinner in a restaurant. Here is the part I was encouraged by:
"My ears are still tuned in to certain frequencies, and if I hear something that’s slightly out of tune, or a cymbal that’s not bright enough or something like that, in the mix, I can f—ing hear the minutiae of everything that we have done to that song; I really can,"
Which maybe not saying much given their music, but that’s probably mean and unfair of me to say!
but for those still able to hear….there are levels of magnitude more performance available. If you are saying I shouldnt spend more money on an Aurender, Taiko or Grimm because you can’t hear the difference….I guess I would have to disagree with your premise. The Node is a fine streamer and if it meets your qualitative threshold, thats awesome.
@johnah5 - could not agree more. I wish I had a dime every time I heard these statements. In the NYC area we have heard so much gear and we all scratch our heads every time someone brings a unit of some kind by for a listen and walks away with nothing special. Plenty of dealers and reviews also.
@rockrider Yes it is! Now I am waiting on Audionet who told me the same thing about their Stern Screen going completely dark! I have covered the power buttons on my amps, so that screen is the last night sky pollution!
@fastfreight Thanks for the heads up! I asked Mola Mola if the LEDs could be dimmed in May ‘22, and at that time they said “we are working on a firmware update that adds the functionality”, but I finally gave up checking for an update. It is great to see they finally made it happen!
I'd like to try that so I'm wondering, how do you bypass or turn off LEDs? I'm not aware of how to do so. I guess this has to do with you being a DIY guy and may be above my skill level.
LEDs add noise. Bypass and listen. In a well resolving system with a person who cares about such sonic things the sonic impact can be heard. Yes I am a crazy audiofool so try for yourself and let your own ears and system decide.
Don't believe everything you read an LED is a semiconductor and no more subject or vulnerable to noise than any other semiconductor. Most diodes including LED's are dead silent although they are often used in improper, flawed, poorly designed circuits so that the result is noise but that is the circuit not the diode.
I started using the LinkUp 8 Network cable in 2021. I put it in my system one 1M section at a time. Each time I did, the system just got better. I am using the 22 AWG Yellow version. This cable has excellent bandwidth performing well top to bottom - the noise floor is significantly lowered. I've not heard cables in the $250-$1,000 range, but I've had other value cables and the LinkUp 8 is on-another-planet better. -I will be interested in your Muon AES cable observations. I'm also thinking about going to the Muon Pro to see if it can beat my ER + LPS - I like that it is passive (I know grannyring likes it better and that was on the Muon and I think Lalitk also liked the ENO better). And so if the Muon Pro works out, I could use my Paul Hynes SR4T LPS on my ONT & Router.
“I tried alternating between LEDs on and off and lo and behold the highs and details returned with them turned off”
Innuos has a thing where they are always saying how noisy led’s can be. It’s why they go “stealth mode” for the most part. But this sounds like they must be really noisy!
@arafiq@lalitk. The Linkup ethernet cable is interesting to me if it beats my Supra cat 8. There are two versions; 22 AWG and 26 AWG. I assume it is the 22 AWG you are using? Thanks! Trying a new NA Muon AES Cable tonight, comparing to my K-S Elation. Still using the Aries G2.1 and waiting on my Grimm!
Soon! I am planning on putting the Grimm MU1 in my main set up, running
Roon Core and AES into my Tambaqui. My other system and bedroom endpoints will be on the network.
Also, in case anyone is interested, the SOtM sNH-10G has been running in and I tried it again today with the same results. However I tried alternating between LEDs on and off and lo and behold the highs and details returned with them turned off. Hallelujah!
They were designed specifically to enhance performance of entire Innuous line except their flagship - Statement. Their incompatibility or adverse effects with any non-Innuos products is not at all surprising to me.
I think that any music lover’s solution to hearing their favorite songs should be easy, and seamlessly, integrated into their own physical environment.
Not much in high end audio is easy and seamless. Why should streaming be any different?
This digital streaming thing is a strange science. There are those who insist that their implementation of a particular solution is the one and only parameter when it comes to achieving audio nirvana. I think that any music lover’s solution to hearing their favorite songs should be easy, and seamlessly, integrated into their own physical environment.
Hi @rockrider, catching up…. I did try the N20 with and without my PhoenixNet in the chain. I think I mentioned somewhere in the many posts above, that while the PhoenixNet sounds fantastic with my Innuos gear and definitely improves things, I felt it did add a tension to the N20 that I didn’t like. Likewise, I tried adding the PhoenixUSB to the N20’s USB output. While things became more resolving, they also became less energetic and flat. My conclusion before was that Innuos and Aurender gear are allergic to each other!
Both Phoenix products are absolutely fantastic with the Zenith Mk3 though.
The MU1 and my Shunyata cables should arrive in 1-2 weeks, hopefully.
For clarity, this is the LinkUp 8 I use, it is Yellow cable rather than black. I am unsure if they are exactly the same but they appear so based on the description. -
I'd agree with @lalitk on his comments on the sound quality of this cable: vs. Supra, it has significantly better resolution, which yields better, more natural flow and ease to the sound.
I can answer that for you. LinkUp 8 handily beats the Supra Cat8+ in my system. My entire chain is LinkUp 8 with the exception of a Supra 8+ from ONT to Router. I may go to LinkUp 8 on that connection as well in the future. The great thing, as for now, LinkUp 8 is less expensive than Supra. Give it a shot, but be warned it has a long burnin time.
The LinkUp LAN cable is a **new** reference for high performance digital systems without the high dollars price tag. Anyone putting together a streaming system, should audition this cable. The only caveat, the 22AWG version cable is bit stiff so no sharp bends. If you need flexibility, try the 26AWG version.
I cannot answer your question from experience, but I've read many accounts of those who are streaming files from hard drives have experienced better sound quality with improved Network cables and switches. I don't understand why, but I believe them as I put significant stock in personal experience.
The way I would burn in the switch is just to stream music 24/7 for at least a few weeks; so just leave your streamer playing even if it is on another input. That is the fastest way to get through the burn in process and I've done it many times recently and in the past.
I went all-in on the switch, special caps/silver wires etc. My Ethernet cables are simple Certified Blue Jeans cables. But the only difference is addition of the switch plus another certified Blue Jeans cable.
Thanks for the insights. I thought this was relevant to the conversation since @nyevis using the PhoenixNET switch, and also observed less detail etc when using an N20.
One would assume that! In grand scheme of things, SoTM recommends using few different configuration of their own LAN cables to get the best out of sNH-10G switch. Not to mention two layers of upgrade option on their switch. I do not know, how deep did you go but it can get pretty expensive with their cabling and LPS.
"What switch did you try? The N20 LAN is 2x isolated so a subpar switch probably do more harm than good :-)" The other question is "did you let the SoTM switch burn in?" It may need several+ weeks to get there, maybe even more. I've never owned that switch, so I'm not sure on burn in for it, but I can tell you even Network cable can take some time to burn in; I've heard the "highs rolled off dramatically" in a Supra Cat8+ cable that has 1000s of hours but had been in a box for a year. I put it back in my system recently, then reversed direction after a few weeks, and it took near another week before it opened up and all the resolution was there. Was frustrating, but patience let me find the correct orientation. I also had a power conditioner that had literally 15 years of use go back in on the network side of my system a few months back and it took over ten days to open up, but it was very easy to hear once it did. Just a few of my recent observations. Anyway, good luck in your journey. Sorry about the off topic OP; enjoying the thread.
“I recently added an audiophile switch (with LPS), and I was very surprised to hear the highs rolled off dramatically, compared to Ethernet directly connected to my router.” @rockrider
What switch did you try? The N20 LAN is 2x isolated so a subpar switch probably do more harm than good :-)
Hey @nyev, while you are waiting for the MU1 to arrive…
Did you try the N20 without the PhoenixNET in the Ethernet chain, while using the AES output?
I just skimmed through the conversation and couldn’t find an answer.
I’m asking because I recently added an audiophile switch (with LPS), and I was very surprised to hear the highs rolled off dramatically, compared to Ethernet directly connected to my router. This was strangely so even though I was only playing my reference files from an internal SSD within my N20. Not even streaming files through the Ethernet! Really surprised me. Needless to say, the new switch is no longer in my system!
I think there’s a problem in audiogon where the same notification is sent multiple times. It happened to me also where I received the same notification more than ten times.
Thanks for the confirmation. I've never seen it happen here before.
I did once submit a post and it made a half-dozen or so copies. I noticed it and deleted the dupes. That caused quite a kerfuffle because some members insisted a moderator was censoring the thread.
I think there’s a problem in audiogon where the same notification is sent multiple times. It happened to me also where I received the same notification more than ten times. Doesn’t mean the sender is doing it.
I haven’t sent any notice to you, so the image you posted is rather weird. I can’t explain it. My last post in this thread (before this one) was . You can see for yourself, @lordmelton.
... if you want to settle for 88 or 96 Khz that’s up to you and your low fidelity and low self esteem.
I know moving on from the N20 was a bit premature, but while I had planned to have the cash “locked up” in my demo gear until I was through testing, I had a buyer approach me, and I know how long gear can be listed even at fair market value. In short, I am rather fond of BOTH of my kidneys, lol!
Some folks may see these purpose built DAC’s as compromising or lacking in features but they focus on one thing, and do it well rather than try to be all things to everyone.
As usual, lalitk hits the nail on the head. Good and sensible advice.
Catching up on your musings…LOL! I see you’ve sold N20 and enjoying Merason DAC1. Personally, I wouldn’t have sold N20 until I’ve found the DAC that checks all the boxes. It’s all good, this is your journey. Just have fun and don’t be afraid to step out of your comfort zone. As long as you’re not giving away your kidney to afford your musings, you’ll be fine :-)
The Merason DAC1 is a fine performer. The NOS DACs are known to have more natural presentation. The highs tend to be smoother and clearer, and the entire presentation is more analog like which is what most of us strive for and hope from our digital gear. Some folks may see these purpose built DAC’s as compromising or lacking in features but they focus on one thing, and do it well rather than try to be all things to everyone. Streaming resolution maxes out at 24bit/192kHz so you’re A-Ok with DAC1 and Gryphon onboard DAC’s. When you get your MU1, be sure to use a good AES cable between MU1 and DAC1 / Gryphon and you will realize full potential of all components as intended by their respective designers. Follow @ghasleylead on all things with MU1 to achieve best outcome before considering another streamer or DAC options.
What grates my posterior is those two clowns Coco and Bungle recommend and endorse a DAC to you that doesn't do 176 Khz.
Perhaps in time your anger will subside. Meanwhile, many audiophiles enjoy DACs that won't do 176 kHz. Some are even happy at 96 kHz, and will recommend them accordingly. Then there are those who use NOS DACs. That's an approach I've never understood, but it works for quite a few.
For me, that's part of what makes our audio pursuit interesting - there is no One Way. Some insist that there is only One Correct Way and as @lordmeltonreveals, most of them get frustrated quite quickly and for some it rises to anger.
The thread about underhung arms suffers the same problem - the concept angers a few and the fact that they've never seen or heard one makes no difference at all!
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
