Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

Appreciate feedback @macdude still demoing the Grimm.but leaning towards a purchase.  One major item that The Grimm MU1 offers is that there is significant simplification in the set up. Ethernet to the Grimm then AES to my Nagra Tube Dac. With other solutions I needed a NUC or Nucleus+ then through Lumin as Streamer and then to Nagra.  It was set up with out the Nagra initially but I wanted a better dac and landed here with the Power Supply. Before adding the Nagra it was just my Nucleus + and Lumin. But there is no comparison in SQ, soundstage, bass on and on with the Grimm.  Total game changer and much simpler set up. I will also add that I have had 0 issues with Roon since I started demoing the Grimm. Not exactly sure why but that’s another discussion in another forum. 
 

Woots

+1 @woots I went from Nucleus+ (with a HDPEX), Auralic Aries G2.1 (with a Sean Jacobs Power supply) to the Grimm mu1.  So that is 4 boxes down to one!  To me the Grimm sounds better and so far has run Roon core without issue.  I have 4 endpoints total.  When Grimm upgrades their software later this year (I am told), then the mu1 can be Core like now or an Certified Roon endpoint alone.  This means for me with two systems, one mu1 can be Roon core / streamer  and the other is streamer (endpoint) only.

I haven’t read this all the way through - but maybe try a Gustard R26 Streamer / DAC combo - reviews on it are stunning especially by dacman.

I haven’t heard the R26 but I have heard the MU1 - the MU1 made my low cost Metrum Octave DAC sound far better than it should have done.

However I get the impression the R26 for a quarter the price of the MU1 may provide stiff competition.

You could also consider the dCS Bartok Apex streamer / DAC - however - again - the R26 even in this company should not be sniffed at I feel.

I am not sure if the above post is Sarcasm, Joke or for real….

Once in a blue moon a low cost product seems to rival far more expensive ones.  I had considered trying out the inexpensive Musetec DAC that many say beats much more expensive DACs, including some who say it beats the Tambaqui at a fraction of the cost.  Seems to be a lot of people who love that DAC.  The thing that made me not include the Mustec in my journey was the fact that in every instance where people claimed it beat the Tambaqui or similar more expensive DACs, the poster was feeding the DAC with a very basic and inexpensive streaming source.  My hypothesis is that the better DACs were simply better at exposing flaws of the source and therefore people concluded the cheaper DAC was best.  I’m not saying that’s what happened, it’s just a hypothesis as I said, given that I couldn’t seem to find one of these comparisons where a higher end source was used.  HiFi can be misleading like that, it’s even happed to me in this thread were I’ve attributed sonic qualities to one component only to find later that it was a different component responsible for the sonic trait.

@nyev I don’t have a problem with a lower price component sounding better but the poster claims he has not even listened to it and is making comparisons between unheard stuff. 

@nyev

My friend, on the internet anyone can say anything. But you are dead wrong about what Musetec users are feeding it with. Take the one example you cite, that of a comparison with the Tambaqui. That comparison was made here on the Musetec thread. The writer is a principal of Network Acoustics manufacturing sophisticated ethernet filters. The DAC he chooses is used for testing as well as pleasure. He has tested every variety of front end on his DACs.

I know that with 1475 posts it’s hard to figure out what streaming sources are being used by each poster, but if you ask, I’m sure they’ll let you know. There are some very high end sources being used because the DAC is worthy of them.

The DAC is considered cheap by some standards. But look at it very closely; it is not cheaply made.

In the interest of transparency, the guy who compared the Musetec with Tambaqui became a distributor for Musetec right around the time he shared his thoughts on these two dacs. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean his comparison is biased, but it is an important data point that must be taken into account when citing the example.

As for the comparison between Grimm and Gustard R26, I'm currently comparing the R26 to Pontus II at this very moment. Is the R26 streamer function as good as Grimm? Based on what I'm hearing, no ... not even close. I think the R26 streamer (not the DAC) plays at the level of Node 2i or many other sub $700 streamers in the market, but it will not outperform higher end streamers. My take on the R26 is that the value it provides is in the DAC section, which is actually very very good. But the streamer functionality is more of a convenience feature and not a serious attempt to become a giant killer. Compared to Innuos Zenith MK3 (which I recently sold) and Aavik S-280 (currently in my main system), the audible difference between R26 and these two are readily apparent. 

@arafiq 

In the interest of completeness, "the guy" wrote of the comparison months before over at head-fi, well before he became a "distributor" for which he has never done advertising.  Also, the pittance one can make being a distributor for Musetec in the UK is not going to affect the opinion of one who has a reputation to uphold for his primary business that focuses on the integrity of the incoming digital audio stream, at least IMO.

@melm , just to emphasize what I said, it is simply a hypothesis that those comparing the Tambaqui to the Musetec are feeding it with a more basic source resulting in the Tambaqui being more revealing of system flaws.  It was more of a “what-if” scenario based on what I saw people feeding the Tambaqui in the comparison with Musetec.

I don’t doubt that people in general are feeding their Musetecs with high quality sources and I’m open to the possibility that the Musetec is truly better than the Tambaqui as well.

The individual being referenced as preferring the Musetec over the Tambaqui had a basic streamer listed as the source where he was posting the outcome of his comparison on Head-Fi on the Tambaqui thread (his system was listed in his signature).  Apologies in advance of I’ve misinterpreted something but I see the Lumin U2 Mini listed as the source, which is certainly not a poor source, but maybe not at the level of a MU1.  It would be good to see a comparison of the Tambaqui vs the Mustec with a MU1 level player or higher as the source.

To be clear, I have no conclusions formed (that would be silly as I haven’t heard the Musetec), just mere speculation based on the circumstances of the comparisons.  Based on what many say I’m sure the Musetec is an awesome DAC and perhaps the best value out there when it comes to DACs.  And yes the internals look incredible; very clean like the Holo May.  I just wouldn’t form any conclusions until we see more comparisons with the Tambaqui with higher end / premium sources.  If you can show me some I will stand corrected; I may have simply not come across them! :)

The [insert the name of the DAC you own and favor] (“Your Amazing DAC”) is a marvel of impeccable engineering, parts quality, and price-to-quality ratio. Your Amazing DAC slays better known DACs in head to head comparisons with one channel tied behind its back, at a fraction of the cost. Most audiophiles are not well-informed enough, or are too trusting of professional reviewers, to appreciate the quality of Your Amazing DAC, and that is their loss. Anyone who spends less than the cost of Your Amazing DAC doesn’t know what they’re missing, and anyone who spends more has more money than sense.

This is a great thread, let’s keep it focused on the Grimm and not DAC talk, which for whatever reason gets people overly worked up. 

I used the Musetec 005 with a fibre stream from both the Lumin X1 (USB out) and Sonore OpticalRendu. Both are excellent streamers and likely hard to beat.

I found the Lumin X1 as a DAC a tiny bit better than the Musetec. When I say better, I have a preference for a less smooth or tubey sound. The Musetec is just a bit warmer and smoother than the Lumin X1. This sound signature of the Mustec is likely what the designer was trying to achieve.

A shame I sold the Musetec 005 but I need the cash to buy the X1. One thing that may get be back to a Musetec 005 is that I want to buy a SACD transport and I think the I2S input on the Musetec can take DSD as input (not sure yet).

The guy that sold me the X1 bought a Tambaqui. All a matter of preference and I cannot say one is better. For example, my Benchmark DAC3B which I consider my worst 2-channel DAC is actually my favorite on my tube headphone amp.

“This is a great thread, let’s keep it focused on the Grimm and not DAC talk, which for whatever reason gets people overly worked up.”

@metaldetektor , agreed, there are lots of DAC war/opinion threads already and I didn’t intend to steer the discussion that way! I only mentioned as I did consider the Musetec before jumping directly to the Tambaqui as part of the journey I’ve described in this thread.  The thing I can say conclusively is that the Tambaqui bests my Gryphon Diablo DAC module in terms of resolution and focus, albeit at a much higher price point.  For the money, the Diablo DAC module is a warm, inviting, lively and engaging DAC with a fuller low frequency tonal balance than the Tambaqui.  Still a great option for the cost, but the Tambaqui goes further which is not a surprise!

@svenjosh , back to you a more interesting topic, for me at least, how is your digital AES cable shootout with your MU1 going?  Can you share details of how the Sablon cable compares and contrasts with the Shunyata Omega?  Really looking forward to your thoughts on that :)

@nyev I would strongly suggest you try the Musetec 005, if just to compare what a chip DAC can do against an R2R DAC.

I believe that your preference is for a brighter, more revealing sound and the Musetec will give you that in spades, notwithstanding the subtleties that it’s capable of.

I’ve compared the Musetec to many famous DACs and it’s never been outclassed.

A Musetec with an AQ Dragon Cable makes a very formidable opponent.

NB USB is it’s favoured input and it needs a long burn in time.

@lordmelton thanks for the suggestion.  I will try to get around to that and definitely still have an interest in the Musetec.  

I will quickly reply to melm's previous post and then shut up about DACs .. I promise :)

To begin with, I want to emphasize that I'm in no way questioning the integrity of the gentleman who compared Musetec to Tambaqui, or the veracity of his claims. The point I was making was that if a party has any financial stake in writing about or promoting a product, it needs to be disclosed -- even post-facto.

I know a number of dealers who picked up new product lines because they were impressed with the products they heard. So when they promote a product in these forums, it's relatively easy to trust their judgement. But still it's good practice to state your affiliation (and most do) when promoting or comparing a product. Ok, no more DAC posts fro me from this point onwards :)

Further to @arafiq post…those contributing here from their direct experience often ignore (conveniently) a fact that every system is unique just as our individual preferences. There are no absolutes in audio..nuff said! 

@lalitk +1 Cannot agree more

@nyev I have shared my impressions on the AES cables.

 Here you go https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/aes-ebu-cable-shootout

Awesome, thank you @svenjosh !  I see that you as well were unsuccessful in securing a Jorma cable this side of the Atlantic.  I even tried contacting UK dealers and distributors, and Jorma directly.  They don’t seem to care about selling their products in North America.

Yes unfortunately that seems to the case with Jorma, even some of the dealers listed on their website don’t carry the brand anymore.

@nyev stick to your plan, overlay your goals and don’t deviate. Alot of well-meaning forum members are certain their giant killer server/streamer/dac/upsampler/reclocker is the answer to your prayers.

Only you can determine what will work best for you.

@ghasley while I’m somewhat curious about the buzz surrounding Musetec and I don’t think these people’s experiences should be discounted (questioning is fine), it’s certainly not a priority as my DAC tick box is definitively checked with the Tambaqui.  I have zero reservations on what it adds to my system and can’t really ask for more at the present time.  So while I remain curious about the Musetec testing one is certainly not a priority for me!

What I do find fascinating is @svenjosh ’s enlightening findings on his AES shootout thread.  Extremely interesting he chose Sablon AES over Shunyata Omega and, shockingly to me, over Nordost Odin 2.  Whoa…. And he’s not the first to prefer Sablon over the uber-expensive cables either. Sorry this probably belongs on his thread but it’s sort of intertwined with my journey here too!

@nyev 

Network Acoustics also makes great sounding cables. Check out their latest Muon AES Cable. Something to keep in mind when you’re ready to order Muon Pro filter kit.  Another favorite of mine is Combak’s 聖HIJIRI Million HDG AES cable. 

Thanks @lalitk . Definitely something to keep in mind. At times I wonder about mixing and matching too many different cable brands in my system and risking mismatches, vs leveraging single brand synergies. Not a big concern though, not by a long shot.

@arafiq no I didn't expect the R26 to be close to the MU1 in terms of comparing the streaming side of things - I just get the impression that if you can compromise on the streaming functionality, the R26 sound quality is especially good.

You could put an MU1 ahead of the R26 of course using it as only a DAC - many are replacing the Chord Upscaler with the MU1 to save money, because the MU1 upscales especially well.

But saying all that - the R26 is a Roon endpoint, so this does help make up for the loss of it's own inbuilt streaming capabilities.

Anyway - as someone has said - I have not heard the R26 to make that comparison it's just an impression I get from a trusted reviewer who was bowled over by the sound of the Gustard. If the R26 ends up sounding as good as the review states - I would probably choose to save money and get the R26 over the MU1 and possibly enjoy my hi-end sound equally well.

I cannot backup the R26 review from experience and there are no dealers in the UK where I can try one out. I have heard the MU1 in a proper demo - and the MU1 is an excellent digital transport, probably about as good as you can get in that respect.

“I just get the impression that if you can compromise on the streaming functionality, the R26 sound quality is especially good.

@chopandchange

The OP is on a journey to push the limits of his digital streaming…don’t think he is in a compromising zone…LOL! You can certainly choose to save money and go for R26 and be happy. That’s the beauty of digital, one can enjoy sound from a very modest setup. Check out the YouTube video of Orchard Audio’s Pecan Pi + Streamer/DAC ($799.95) and Starkrimson Stereo Ultra Amp ($2499.95). This two components system sounded pretty darn good for the money when I heard it at AXPONA 2023. Just add speakers and you’re in digital heaven.

https://youtu.be/ymIoPm66FJo

Thanks for the link - here's the link for the Gustard R26

https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/a-new-point-of-reference-gustard-r26-discrete-r-2r-ladder-dac-review/

Giant Slayer! a.k.a Gustard 😂

There are other reviewers who compared the Gustard R26 to Ares II and preferred the Ares II as being more organic and balanced. I’ve owned it for two days now in my second system, and so far I can say that it’s very good for the money. But giant slayer it ain’t. 

@woots Have you considered trying Playback Design streamers with your Nagra Tube DAC, it will use the Nagra Link instead of AES or USB.

Thanks to @metaldetektor, its top on my list to try out now with my Tube DAC.

@essrand i tried to reach out to them but no one responded to my inquiry. Does it have Roon software built in?

Nyev, if you want Vana Ltd. in Nesconset, NY deals with Jorma cables.

I received mine from him and it is an excellent AES/EBU cable.

 

 

@snopro , just saw this now.  I had previously opened a ticket with Vana Inc from their website requesting the Jorma, but didn’t receive any response.  Can I ask, what other AES cables you have compared with the Jorma, and what differences you found?

Some developments, close to the end of this particular journey… I’ll say this right up front in case it gets missed below, but with my upgraded cables my Innuos PhoenixNET pairs beautifully with the MU1. With the new cables the PhoenixNET does not “overdampen” the sound like it did when I was using the basic cables. Here is where I am at:

1. My Shunyata Omega AES and Sigma V2 XLR cables arrived, and have about 110 hours on them. Burn in was needed; things sounded good at first but vocals were a tad “canned” sounding. All better now.
2. Compared to my prior entry-level temporary cables (Old green Cardas AES cable and Audioquest Red River XLR interconnects), the sound has really relaxed and opened up. High frequencies are coming through without being forceful or drawing attention - they are simply there, in a very relaxed way.
3. Sound is more “suspended” now with far better positioning, space, and air - especially with vocals.
4. The MU1 has more than caught up in one of the areas I thought my Innuos setup was doing slightly better in. The MU1 has become more expansive and open with a bigger sense of presence and scale.
5. Midrange is more relaxed and expressive with more finesse. That hard midrange impact I noted previously is toned down, and in retrospect is not missed. This is better!
6. This one is interesting. Before, I noted that my PhoenixNET didn’t pair well with the MU1. The sound was over dampened, and became dull and lifeless. This is not so with my new cables. It sounds awesome - tightens and clarifies everything without losing anything at all now! Not sure if there is any concern that the MU1’s network speed is 1000 Mbps while the PhoenixNET is limited to 100 Mbps. I will ask Grimm if this holds back sonic performance at all.
7. Another interesting one. Before re-adding the PhoenixNET, I have to admit I wasn’t sure about the MU1’s oversampling modes. I was finding that on some tracks, vocals at center stage were not as solid and well-formed with 4X oversampling engaged. But after reintroducing the PhoenixNET, this problem went away! 4X oversampling sounds fantastic now in all cases, to me! More open, cleaner, more suspended feeling, with more space, and vocals are just as solidly formed at center stage now.
8. As an aside I tried some sonic stabilizers that rest on top of your gear. Herbie’s. They changed the sound without a doubt. But not in a good way - sound became more condensed and compact. Will not use them.
9. I did some comparisons feeding my original Diablo 300 DAC module using the Shunyata Omega AES. And it sounds truly fantastic! Had I tried this originally I would have been happy with this. But the Tambaqui is better - more detail, more precision, more expressive. But taking a step back, between the cost of the Tambaqui, the cost of the Sigma V2 XLR interconnects, and the future cost of a Dragon power cord, I’m not sure the value is there, considering how good the Diablo 300 DAC module sounds now that I have a premium AES cable. But the Tambaqui is without a doubt better, and since I already own the Tambaqui and XLR interconnects, I’m happy with them and they aren’t going anywhere. Debating whether to remove the DAC module from my Diablo300 amp, for a possible boost in quality due to less electrical noise in my amp.

Regarding the SR fuse for my Innuos Zenith Mk3, my dealer has not followed up twice after they had emailed they would. I’ll take that as a sign and give up on that. I may try SR purple fuses in my MU1 and Tambaqui in the future.

Regarding the Muon filter, now that the PhoenixNET is back in the mix, I won’t be going the Muon route. The PhoenixNET does filtering AND it is a reclocker for Ethernet.

As a very final step, I will be ordering a Sablon AES cable. Just have to hear this cable after several reports comparing with Shunyata, the most recent being from @svenjosh.

Really happy with where things seem to be settling out. It’s finally time to say goodbye to my beloved Innuos Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB, and AudioQuest Diamond USB cabling. I can now remove the cellophane screen protector from my MU1 - it’s definitely here to stay!

My next upgrade (because yeah…) will be swapping out my Audioquest Hurricane power cords feeding my source equipment for Dragons. I currently have Dragons feeding my amp and Torus isolation transformer. Seems like a logical next step to me! Will not be anytime soon, will take it slow for now, aside from messing with the Sablon AES….

It’s great to hear that things are settling and you are enjoying your journey. I compared the Mu1 to two major streamers. I can PM you my thoughts. I do not want to derail your thread.

Back to the MU1. A point I forgot to mention, is that I find both the generic power cord that comes with it and also my Audioquest Hurricane to be looser in the MU1’s power connector socket than with most of my other gear. The slightest nudge will cause a disconnection of power. I absolutely notice an improvement in sound when I reposition and recenter the connector.

Am ordering these to solve the problem. Shunyata ships these exact inserts with their power cords to help with fit when needed.  Perhaps Grimm should too.  Have to order 100 but hey I’ll never run out.

@nyev

Some use plumbers Teflon tape and find it works well. It also has an infinitely lower cost. Regards

BTW - great wrap up!

Strange.  I don’t have that issue with my MU1.  I certainly do with other components in my set up but not the Grimm.

@nyev  

I have a Jorma, HIJIRI HDG-X, and borrowed my friends Tron. All three are excellent AES cables and would be happy with anyone. None blow away the other. The differences aren't night and day. The Jorma might be more open in the treble and hits a little deeper in the bass. The Hijiri and Tron sound more similar to each other. Their midranges are a touch fuller than the Jorma. They are all very open and transparent from bass to treble. 

I think it will be whatever cable has best synergy with your components! In my setup I like the Hijiri best, its a touch more natural and brings out emotions more especially with vocals. Probably will put the Jorma up for sale or just might keep it too. I do like what it offers.

Where do you live I might be willing for you to check it out. I also would like to hear your thoughts on the Sablon.

Like I said it is all highly subjective. I could live with any one and be happy!

@nyev sorry if this has been covered already, but I’m curious on your thoughts about if there is an advantage of having a dedicated streamer between a Roon core and a Weiss 501 DAC. As you know the 501 is Roon ready and accepts an Ethernet cable. I’ve been running a fiber connection into a Sonor Optical module and an Shunyata Ethernet cable into the Weiss. This thread has gotten me wondering about moving to something like a Grimm. I have a high resolving system. 

@w123ale , I’ve not had direct experience with combined DAC/Streamers, so I can’t say first hand whether separating the streamer from the DAC will help.  But on the accounts of many, many others, it sounds to me that there is a very large benefit.  That said, you might want to check out the updated info on the Grimm MU2, which is a combined streaming DAC, on their website.  The MU2 should be available soon.  The article on the Grimm site is interesting.

@nyev many thanks!

@nyev If you are interested in trying the Purple Fuse on the Innuous, here is their link for changing fuses. https://innuos.com/kb/replacing-the-fuse-on-innuos-products/

Also, I think Marten speakers recommend Jorma cables, so Marten dealers will often also be Jorma dealers.  I think that's the case near me, reach out to Command Performance A/V in Falls Church VA to see if they can get them.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/grimm-mu1-vs-aurender-n30sa-vs-taiko-audio.36887/

As good as Grimm is, someone found that it is no match with either Aurender N30 or Taiko Extreme

@shkong78 I find those comments a little strange (Grimm doesn’t sound polite to me) but in any event, those two options are 2x the price of the Grimm.

If we’re talking about the same price class, the Playback Designs MPS-X is the interesting comparison. Having owned both Grimm and now PB, I have to say I prefer the latter, which takes nothing away from the Grimm which is an exceptional product.