Hi all, I'm looking to upgrade from my current speakers (Zu Audio Omen) in my small room (13x10x7: WxLxH) and willing to spend $3-5k. I'm looking for a slightly more transparent speaker than the Zu's and also a smaller speaker. I'm open to new and used speakers. So, I've turned my attention to bookshelf speakers and small footprint floorstanders. I have a Rel subwoofer to buttress low end. Most of my listening these days focuses on blues, soul and R&B, classic rock, and alternative hip-hop.
My system is: Rogue Audio Sphinx v3, Bluesound Node 2i, Rega P3 TT, Rel T7/X sub.
My nearest Hifi shop focuses on Harbeth, Spendor, and KEF. So far, I've liked the Harbeth P3ESR and Compact 7s and the Spendor A4. But, I'm curious to get other suggestions. I've been interested in the Devore Fidelity O'Baby but are just above my price range and can't be demoed right now.
Does anyone have experience with those aforementioned speakers in a small room? What else should I consider for a smallish room in this price range?
If timing truly maters then why do so many designers think like this who cant resists the temptation to use a heavy slow hi mass metal driver which offers a lotta wow wheres the sub? bass at 90 hz with
nobody s home in the mid range they are forced to push the treble so to balance the frequency response. This offers a false sense of transparency yet is good enough to satisfies most if the marking cheerleaders work hard enough.
. For those who want smaller speakers with a more genuine mid band cohesive frequency delivery, on time vividness that keeps up with the timbre of the music the Vandersteen VLR CTs for me are extraordinary and worth considering.
The P3 is a very safe bet. It is smooth and very laid back with full sounding midrange; and easy to pair with other equipment and just consistently good with most genres of music— and with recordings that may not be the best quality. Having said that, you mentioned that you are looking for a “more transparent speaker”, and therefore I would suggest also looking at the Falcon “Gold Badge” LS3/5A. Compared to the P3, it is more clean, transparent/revealing with treble that is very smooth. It is more forward in its presentation.
Thanks for the additional information on those RA speakers, @nonoise. Those do seem really great!
Follow up question to this group - I haven't yet purchased the P3s (which was my original conclusion) because I'm getting new carpet installed in the listening room. Meanwhile, I keep finding reasonably priced used Harbeth 30.2s (example here). Used P3 XDs plus stands will be ~$3k. These 30.2s are not much more.
My gut tells me that this speaker is too large for my room (see original post). But, the deals on these 30.2 are tempting. I've listened to 30.2 in a larger room and it was great.
Looking for some input and guidance on the 30.2s and particularly if I really should not put them in a room of my size.
Sorry but I don't have any info other than what I wrote earlier. I just wish I could remember where I read of other potential dealers. It might have been over on YouTube in the comments section of the speaker or at one of the countless sites I looked at while researching, but I do recall people saying a dealer in their area are going to carry them.
They have an open invitation for retailers on their site so maybe after word of mouth and more reviews come out, others may take an interest in them or if they now carry them, update their websites.
If anyone knows of a dealer now carrying their line, please chime in with what you know.
Yes, Daniel Emonts was the senior sound engineer at Dynaudio and some of the most successful models were his designs. Here are two recent German reviews to glean:
CSS 1tdx are really good. I’ve had multiple Dynaudios, Paradigms, KEFs, Merlin’s, Vapor Audio, and I’m sure some others.
Overall these are the most satisfying. They play super loud, have great bass, great mids, silky highs and are really easy to listen to while still being detailed. Great drivers and crossover components and great bang for the buck.
If you do go the route of trying out the Atalante 3, be prepared for break in. It'll take a week or two of steady playing. The cone material of the mid woofer is unique in the industry with higher strength than glass fiber or even Kevlar. I used my Ayre test CD (with pink and white noise and frequency sweeps) to aid in break in and it was only after the 3rd time that everything fell into place. It's good practice to occasionally use it anyway.
Don't get me wrong as it sounds great right out of the box but odd at the same time, as if something is amiss. It's just the cone breaking in. I'm now routinely going through 2, 3, and 4 hour listening sessions, reveling in the sound.
Also, if you employ subs, forgo the use of them to see just how low and convincing the base performance is and to judge the speaker on its merits, alone. You'll be pleasantly surprised. I have no desire whatsoever for a sub with these speakers and I've come from using JBL 4319 speakers with 12" woofers.
I support your plan. Make the comparisons over an extended period. Play each for a long listening session with in a day and also each over several days.
Thanks all for the suggestions. My plan is to buy a used pair of Harbeth P3s and then select a few other speakers (like the Revival’s) that allow for home auditions and see what comes out on top. Any comments on that plan?
Checkout Divine Acoustics Proxima v3 from Poland. A slim floor standing speaker in a sealed enclosure. I have a pair in a room similar to yours (12x13x8) and they are great. A lot of cool design features. I had KEF LS-50 Metas but they lacked oomph and I don't mess with subwoofers in two channel so I sold them. The Proximas I believe are the perfect balance between bookshelf and tower speaker. You can find used pairs around the 2k range.
@grislybutter, No, the stands were $399 extra and required assembly. They came flat packed and were of the highest quality re: fit, finish, tolerances, etc.
They come with two sets of screws to fasten the rubber pads to the bottom of the speaker. One short set for just the pads and another longer set to attach everything to the speaker stand’s top plate, which is thick. I went with the longer ones which makes it much easier to move the speaker around and keep everything more stable.
I’ve just finished breaking the speakers in and they’re simply amazing. Among the most musical speakers I’ve heard.
As a matter of fact I do have the Revival Audio Atalante 3 speakers and have been breaking them in since last Thursday. Absolutely wonderful speakers as they go through their paces and just keep getting better by the day.
I believe they have a 45 day trial period (if bought direct) and come with a 10 year warranty. Great build quality as well. I'm biased, as you can tell.
I still can't understand how they sell them for $2499 and make a profit. Everything is designed, engineered and assembled in France.
I just picked up a pair of Acoustic Energy AE509 for my bedroom and I've enjoyed them so far. They're a small tower speaker with nice bass, no sub needed. New they were originally $3900 now can be found for $2800 to $3500.
OP trust your ears. What you hear > any review. Don’t turn away from something that sounded good to you because of a review. Your ear is the final judge.
FWIW, I had a set of KEF LS50’s for a small room. This was the original version. To my ear, they were lifeless unless they were doing 90 dB at my listening position, eight feet away from the speakers. Played at concert-level SPL, I began to understand how they earned the love of the audiophile press. But I sent them back anyway. What made the audiophile press love them did not work for me.
Doing a home audition with Fritz might be worthwhile, especially if your nearest HiFi shop will let you take home your leading candidate from there to compare.
@nickamland Check out Atohm. Super sound. You can manually adjust the sound on the rear if you need more/less highs. Made in France and they manufacture all of their own drivers. They even make inexpensive stands if that is what you need. If you are into HT they have a center channel and of course they make a matching sub. www.atohm.com. PM me if you are interested in connecting up with a great dealer. Price is about $4K. You won't be disappointed.
I was using Pangea . I have them listed here for sale if you want to take a look. My HL5s came with TonTrager stands. I got a real good deal on the HL5s with the stands included! BTW, another nice speaker that would be a good fit is the Spendor 4/5 or the A1. I have owned them. As you can see I’ve owned many speakers. Too many! LOL!!!!
I’ve owned many Harbeths and I am familiar with the brand. The P3ESR is a perfect fit for your size room. I have owned the 30.1. I just sold a pair of P3ESRs and replaced them with the larger Super HL Plus. There are plenty listings for used P3’s! BTW, always buy used so you don't take a beating if you don't like them!
@ddd1 - I appreciate that response. That's what alluring about the KEFLS50 Meta and KC62 option - it feels easier to dial that in.
And, what's also alluring about getting a slightly bigger speaker such as used Harbeth 30.1. There's a pair on Audiogon for ~$5k with Tron Traegar stands. Buying a new P3 (used pairs seem rare) plus nice stands reaches that amount anyways.
Does anyone have an opinion on the new P3 vs. used 30.1 given my size room? Also, thanks to those with the continued suggestion of Vandersteen book shelf speakers. I'll look to see if they have a home trial.
The problem with tiny speakers like this is that the sub crossover needs to be high. I had the regular LS50 with SVS sub and they were unsatisfying for all but the lighter stuff. No Zep for you! Even though your room is small, choosing speakers that extend lower in the bass will increase your odds for successful sub integration. You have to consider what the subs are doing above the crossover frequency. If the crossover is too high, the subs will affect frequencies well above that and you will hear the sub trying to play stuff it shouldn’t. ie. if you set the sub to 80Hz, the sub does not stop on a dime at 80Hz...it messes up what’s above that. You can see that for yourself by shutting off your main speakers and playing music through the sub at the loudest levels you listen at. Do a frequency sweep and you may be surprised at what the sub is doing when it isn't being masked by the main speakers. Also you can have a very dynamic sub but if the speakers are small, the dynamics of the sub don’t match the dynamics of the speaker which is another problem. Go big or stay home! Try to find standmounts that extend -3dB to 40-45Hz or lower. If you do, you might find you don't even need subs for music.
+1 to @joey54 for recommending the Vandersteen VLR CT. It’s an excellent bookshelf size speaker designed to go close to the wall, so you get more space in your room. I think the Mofi will be too big for that room. I have the KEF LS50 Metas and it’s an amazing speaker that just gets better as you upgrade your system. If anything, budget for another REL sub. Stereo subs are a big step up and will actually help to improve bass in a smaller room.
OP- I’ve owned Harbeth P3esr, M30.1, and KEF LS50. I now have Fritz Carrera BE in my second system and in my opinion it’s a better speaker than the aforementioned. I haven’t tried the LS50 Meta though. If you contact Fritz, he can send you a pair for auditioning. He has a really good return policy. The speakers are hand made in the USA and imo provide the best value for bookshelf speakers up to $5k
Funny thing, I just changed my system around to a Rogue Audio Sphinx v3, Zu Audio Omen Bookshelf Speakers. TT is a Technics 1500 with a Ortofon Blue and PS Audio SACD Transport and Gain Cell DAC.
What I like about the Omen's is how energetic and alive they sound. They also work out better than most speakers that I have owned because I have them placed on top of some bookcases, mostly to keep the cats away from them. But granted the Omens do have some size to them.
The Omens replaced some Golden Ear BRX monitors. They worked well with the Rogue. Placing them on top of bookcases is not an ideal way to treat them. Worth a look.
Thanks for the input so far. I’ve never heard Joseph or Fritz but I don’t think any local dealer has them in store. The aesthetic of B&W has never really appealed to me. I’ve been curious about the MoFi SourcePoint 10, though its large physical size might make it feel out of place.
There seems to be a bit of confluence around the Harbeth P3 and the KEF LS50.
In full transparency, I bought a pair of the KEF LS50 last year and in the end, liked the Zu speakers more. But, this was not the LS50 Meta version and I didn’t yet have a sub. I think I should demo them side by side with the Harbeths.
I left a demo a few weeks ago excited by the Harbeths until I read this review from Darko which painted them as dainty and polite. My musical focus right now is not really on vocal, acoustic, or jazz, so that waned my excitement. Ultimately, I haven’t been in this audiophile game long and haven’t listened to that many speakers. So, I’m feeling weary about making an uninformed or inexperienced decision.
Has anyone had experience with the Harbeth P3 or LS50 and the Chartwell Audio LS35a or LS6? Or with the Devore O’Baby? Or the Triangle Comete? What are your takeaways?
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