GaN based SU-R1000 Technics Integrated Class-D, review by TAS
After their unobtainable and unaffordable ground breaking 1.5mhz switching speed, Technics SE-R1 GaN Class-D power amp, this new offspring integrated has finally gotten an in depth review.
..and yet the reviewer didn't note: 1. What music he played.2. How the amp specifically performed with that music. 3. What the rest of the system was. and the most important spec for George: switching speed! This is a seriously lacking "review". Finally, another Class-D amp that can't perform below 4-ohms and at $10K. Pathetic.
Don’t think I ever said it had 1.5mhz switching speed??, just it’s big bro the SE-R1, I seriously hope it does too. As 1.5mhz switching speed is far better than 600khz, as then there’s no 70 degrees phase shift (https://ibb.co/2thS6y2) then from 1khz to 20khz in the audio band.
And I’ve always maintained they (all Class-D’s) have a problem driving speakers like Wilson Alexia into very low impedance’s. Cheers George
Yes, another nothing review. "
It has notable competition at its price range"......then says nothing about its competition.....so, how do we know how it sounds without a reference. Just another money making review. Rave and do not compare......then the advertisers are happy.
I am sure it is very good.....but how good? you cannot tell a thing from this review.
George, you are aware that AGD's Audion first gen is "only" 400kHz and is considered to be an excellent product? Their second gen is up to 800kHz I believe. So, let's stop touting 1.5MHz as the requirement for excellence. Perhaps it is for other designers but Alberto knows more about GaN's than others.
Perhaps it is for other designers but Alberto knows more about GaN’s than others.
Well for those that know it’s not good to put all that wattage, current, signal etc etc through those tiny touch contact tube pins, they will be a problem after a while. Even the designer said the tube thing was a bit of advertising gimmick in an interview.
AGD’s Audion first gen is "only" 400kHz and is considered to be an excellent product? Their second gen is up to 800kHz I believe.
See even he knows that the higher is better. As the SE-R1’s at 1.5mhz!!! is minimum, to have close to zero phase shift back in the audio band. As this Hypex at 600khz shows has (red trace) https://ibb.co/2thS6y2 with 70 degrees!! phase shift at 10khz! and still 50degrees of of phase at 2khz!!!!! >2mhz in the future will be the best.
I have a good friend who has listened to the Technics in depth And it is very good but felt his Coda CSIB integrated was more complete in several areas ,in other systems they may like the more nimble Technics, the Coda uses The Latest Mosfets, FETs, gan are the latest fastest FETs , and the Coda also uses 40 Bipolors on the outputs day Huge 3kva potted transformer , I myself bought the Coda and just installed IMO the world class Latest Jupiter waxed paper Copper foil capacitors for the Class A preamplifier output section. It is very good it will compete with top separates in the $10 k+ range,which says a lot. 35+ years in business ,10 year warranty,and Made in USA 🇺🇸
George you have been critical of many designers, engineers, builders and brands. What amps, preamps, DACs have you designed built or what patients do you hold? Just wondering before I invest in my next piece of audio equipment.
audioman58 Coda also uses 40 Bipolors on the outputs day Huge 3kva potted transformer
Great output stage setup for the bases to me the best of linear high bias SS amp/s. Gryphon, Dan Ago, Krell, John Curl etc etc all still go this way, and still to me nothing competes with them when hearing them.
But Class-D is going to be the norm that's fact, especially with offshoots of Technics SE-R1 and it’s 1.5mhz switching frequency, but still even these amps can’t drive speakers like Wilson Alexia’s etc. Like what those Gryphon, Dan Ago, Krell, John Curl etc etc linear complimentary bi-polar amps can, and they'll still be around for those that want the very best, with the very best of speakers that are usually very hard to drive.
As it not possible "yet" for GaN or any complimentary Mosfets to keep almost doubling their wattage for each halving of impedance from 8ohm to 4ohm to 2ohm like the big Bi-Polar amps above can do.
1. The SE-R1 needs to be at 1.5MHz to perform as it does, considering the rest of its design.
2. The AGD does not need to run that high to perform as it does. Its design and execution are superior, I believe. sure, they increased the frequency to 800MHz now, but the improvement in SQ is incremental not dramatic.
3. You’re always mentioning specs; you should mention SQ. Both AGD’s are superior in SQ. Would you rather have your 1.5MHz and lesser SQ? Of course not!
4. I believe the best performance and SQ will be using a linear power supply. I had an H2O S250 Signature, B&O and linear, and it performed beautifully with Apogees, including Scintillas. I’ll wait for that amp rather than jump into the current wild, wild west!
I believe the best performance and SQ will be using a linear power supply
That’s exactly what I did in the 2nd system with my Hypex NC500 monoblocks (same as BelCanto Reference-600 monoblocks). Two things I did that took them to another level, I now have a massive linear supply and the other was when I also completely bypass the Hypex modules input gain stage, because my MSB Discrete R2R DAC has up 7.5Vpp variable output and can drive each of the NC500 poweramps balanced in stage itself direct.
Would you rather have your 1.5MHz and lesser SQ
Yes defiantly the 1.5mhz or more switching speed "and better sound quality" it brings. Because the 70 degrees of phase shift in the upper mids/highs https://ibb.co/2thS6y2 on Class-D’s will then be almost reduced to 0, like good linear amps that have FR’s out to 200khz and because of that they also have almost 0 phase shift in the audio band
EXACTLY ! And that's what I'm doing with the Orchard Audio Ultra Amplifier modules. Five of them with 2 massive Toroidal's for the GaN Amps (one powers two GaN's, the other power's three GaN's) along with smaller toroidal's for the drive stages. Lots of filtering and rectification along with proper grounding.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with switching supplies with all the advances that have been done with that technology. I'm listening to the loaner Ultra Amplifier for a month now and I'd power the modules with switching supplies without hesitation.
But it just looks so cool inside with all those big ass Toroid's (and little ass one's too. Amp modules are coming soon. I have some wiring to cleanup so don't judge my workmanship....yet.
Let's face it, reviews in the two mainstream mags that contain even a brief comparative section are few and far between, and when they do, the components that are compared are usually nowhere near the same price bracket. The mags won't risk pissing of manufacturers by printing statements like brand X performed, overall, better than brand Y.
Look what happened with Herb R.'s much-heralded cable survey that was announced a number of months ago. How many installments did that have? One.
George lives on his own deserted island. His opinions are formed on what he reads he has a link to everything. Very little hands on listening most know that specs will not dictate sound otherwise every component would sound the same. Design and execution is key.
In the end it depends on the individual and budget one can convince themselves that their 3k amp sounds as good as an 8k amp.
@twoleftears, Well said. Reviewers are no less immune from the viciousness of the mob than anything audio related here. It’s expected. It’s also why lots of reviewers on all manner of platform have suspended comments or heavily moderate them. The same losers who pounce here pounce there and pollute discussion. Personally, I think they get a kind of perverse high off of it.
If one does a more than cursory reading of the review on the SU-R1000, the reviewer hits all the notes without naming names and even goes so far as to say lots of snobs have written off Technics as a major audio player simply because they’re involved with lots of mid-fi gear and that they’re of Japanese origin. I think a lot of the negativity here can be from that.
I’ve always wanted something that sticks to the old adage of " a straighwire with gain" and Technics took a very big step in that direction, which is why I’m waiting on my Technics SU-G700 (in silver) to come in.
Glad someone around here is stand on solid ground.
And many with that negativity, are just doing that so they can shill for their own commercial interests. And yes nothing wrong with the "a straighwire with gain" adage, as it implies no colouration, which is a distortion.
George lives on his own deserted island.
But you live in the clouds and have no idea about: switching frequency vs low order output filter vs resulting in phase shift down into the audio band.
Let’s face it, reviews in the two mainstream mags that contain even a brief comparative section are few and far between, and when they do, the components that are compared are usually nowhere near the same price bracket. The mags won’t risk pissing of manufacturers by printing statements like brand X performed, overall, better than brand Y.
Look what happened with Herb R.’s much-heralded cable survey that was announced a number of months ago. How many installments did that have? One.
i think it is called a ’collectively profit-making, self perpetuating eco-system’... the target audience (and often enough, the prey) being the inexperienced retail consumer/hi fi enthusiast
I’m not sure there are many who want a straight wire with gain. In recent years a number of small manufacturers and a few large have been building amplifiers with distortion and noise so low it’s inaudible to humans which is as close to a straight wire with gain as you can get. Mostly these amps are considered boring and sterile. Personally it’s what I prefer but i know a lot of people don’t. There’s nothing right or wrong in any preference but to modify a "straight wire with gain" to sound similar to amplifiers whose distortion is audible isn’t a neutral amplifier. If you take 2 amplifiers that are neutral that measure beyond human hearing then they will sound the same. I’ve never heard this Technic amp but it appears to be one I would like though I know I can get cheaper "straight wires with gain".
I’m not sure there are many who want a straight wire with gain.
I’m positive there are, but you don’t do it by making amps nonlinear or with selective distortions in them. You do it with equalizers if needed or change whatever is that you don’t like the sound of, usually the speakers or room. (not by changing the linear items for non linear ones that's crazy) Cheers George
The two I trust the most are Stereophile and then TAS. Can’t wait for the Stereophile one as it will come with bench tests which "usually" backup the listening tests if you understand them .
Yes we can look at another the minor publication Ibtech reviews gave it 5 out of 5 and loved it also
"Beautiful warm soundscape with enormous depth and dynamics Technics SU-R1000 is one of the most unique we have seen and heard in the high-end class."
Regardless of source – analogue or digital – we notice that the SU-R1000
doesn’t have the most expansive soundstage. Its presentation isn’t
cluttered exactly, but there’s a definite lack of space around sounds
and instruments, making things sound less layered and lacking in depth.
The delivery could do with greater precision when locating instruments
in the image too.
They don't say which speakers were used to make this determination, perhaps all three of them. The review speakers, by the way, are nothing special in my view.
Ok, so we're going down that path well here we are.
And from Absolute Sound, quite the opposite "
The new Technics SU-R1000 integrated amplifier is one of the most innovative and best-sounding pieces of electronics I’ve had the opportunity to audition in recent years."
Wow!!! what is it with you guys, are you so entangled with what your spruiking and shilling for, that you can’t stand to see anything else get some cred, even if it’s on another thread to what your spruiking/shilling on??
Over decades of reading reviews where a component was simply inserted into a ’reviewers’ system without regard to what makes the component special and likely incompatible with the reviewers kit. A case of the blind leading the blind. Case in point; MANY reviews of true balanced kit were reviewed in NON true balanced systems with the reviewer closing with I heard very little difference... is pathetic, as it leaves the buyer at a loss of what the kit would sound like in a true balanced system.
AC is long known to wax enthusiastic over all the equipment he reviews, but in this case, his comments about how the SU-R1000 sounds, very much mimics my own experience with a stock LSA Voyager GaN amp, a 350/600 ground up build GaN amp at a most reasonable $3000
Unfortunately, GaN amps sold direct only (like LSA) will not be reviewed in most, if not all print magazines. It will be up to the many forums to tell their personal experiences
I own the baby technics SUG 700 integrated amp I picked up on here at a steep discount thank you very much to the seller. My only gripe I wish it had more power but really not needed in my system. The SUG700 is beautiful to look at and listen to at a fraction of the cost of its big brother, but with a few of the same features. I'm don't spin records so I could give a rats patoot about the phono stage but I do listen to headphones and my Focal's sounds great thru this amp. What I've said before on here Technic's customer service sucks, actually it's nonexistent as far as I am concerned period amen. You see you can't speak to a person, hell you can't contact a person at Technics give it a try. Why do I say this the email address and phone numbers in their manual do not work. I called Panasonic the same deal no people answer just recording telling you to leave a message which is ignored. So I randomly calling variations of phone numbers listed and I got some guy at his desk and he gave me an email address at Technics I wrote to it and never got a response. Hell I was only looking for information about the SUG 700, I sure hope this unit never breaks! I might also add their marketing sucks as well as evident in the limited reviews available on the SUG 700.
the good news is that the better made, higher priced gan or otherwise class d amps are sounding quite good these days, much much better than older stuff, even under big uber high end brand names who have gone there in the past
the bad news is that reviews, esp. by the commercial audio press, online, or in print, will only get you so far, as they have mixed incentives to report the whole truth, nothing but the truth, and legit and useful comparisons that buyers likely care about
auditions (ideally in home, in your own system) are key, but they cost time energy and money... that being said, the good news above is indeed good news, and the differences in sq between different units may be relatively modest on all but very good very resolving systems... on many systems most modern options will be very good in producing glorious music, especially when direct comparisons are not at one’s disposal
i have gone back to the budget gan mini 5 - listening to this very modestly priced amp with various dacs i have laying around, soekris, pontus, audio mirror doge... in all cases there beautiful reproduction of music without typical distracting hifi nasties
Heard a Rowland, another devialet, past two months. when I have a day off, I love taking a few hours, putting on some better clothes, cologne, as I am treated better. I love lugging in my Sunfire to test speakers, as well as my own music, testament, Riot, seance, ....you get the pic..... they will not leave the room during play time, they have stereotyped me with my choice of music,...
Few Months prior, I showed up in my work clothes, I’m a construction worker, you figure it out. Partially ignored, pretty much came up with excuses why they would not hook up my Crest CA-9 to listen to music on their speakers.....this one made me smile...”crest is not an audiophile amp” had to smile on that one. We only play the amps we sell and represent. We don’t have balanced cables or a preamp which accepts balanced cables. As mentioned, I brought in my Sunfire ,dressed well, cologne, combed my nest head, and was welcomed with open arms, until I popped in testaments practice what you preach, the attitudes quickly changed to a nice dressed man,...to a parolee....hell, I even shaved.
amyway, eventually listened to the devialet and the Rowland D amps, while they played music, and sounded good, there was something missing, the Devialet curiously sounded better than the Rowland, which surprised me.
@scott22 I agree, liking the SU-G700, but I also love vinyl so the SU-R1000 is a big deal to me. Yet at 10k, and considering my TT isn't the best (or what I'd consider worthy of the phono stage of the SU-R1000) I am gonna wait this out and see if I could grab a used one down the road... but doubt it. Seem Technislcs is low volume high cult following and their stuff doesn't pop up much.
First off Im going to let you know about an amp company that makes such a stunning GaN amp, that I immediately negotiated the USA Dealer position . It is nothing like any of you have yet heard and I stake my name on it . The AGD Production amps are capable of delivering 32A of current on the $7500 model and 50A on the $18K model. They switch at 800Mhz. They are the only GaN amps where the MOSFET is designed for HiFi ground up. The other amps are using GaN devices optimized for battery chargers.
He’s a shill for AGD, there is no way that those tube pins can possibly take 32A of current let alone 50A. He’s talking out of his .. And he has no idea about the GaN transistors themselves that get used in these audio amps whatsoever, as the ones for battery chargers couldn’t take the current or the voltage that the audio ones use, again he just talking out of his . And 800khz switching frequency yes is a "bit" better than 600khz, but no way near as good 1.5mhz that Technics uses in the SE-R1 and I believe from what someone said the SU-R1000 also. .
George, you are pathetic: 1. You are accusing AGD with blatantly lying as to delivering 32A. This is easily verified. There is no way a reputable manufacturer would risk claiming so if it were not so.
2. You did not read from Alberto's mouth that his GaN's ARE specifically designed for audio. HIS GaN's are HIS alone. 3. Again with switching frequency! Yes, 1.5MHz is higher than 800kHz, not better. It does not make for better SQ! You are obsessed with SF and ignoring SQ! Geez!
1. You are accusing AGD with blatantly lying as to delivering 32A.
Your dreaming, ask any tech, you try putting 32-50Amps!! as quoted through those 6550 leaf contact pin/sockets and see what happens to them over time, even the designer said the tube thing was a bit of a gimmick in an interview. (Yes for the gullible to swallow).
Again with switching frequency! Yes, 1.5MHz is higher than 800kHz, not better.
You have no idea what the switching noise filter has to get rid of it before it get to your speakers and what it does to the phase integrity of the audio band. This is the phase shift at 600khz https://ibb.co/yPT2bH0, for 800khz the red trace would only move to the right so it’s 70 degree "worst point" at 10k now, will then be at 20k instead with 800khz. So you still have bad phase shift with 800khz in the audio band down to 2k instead of 1k. Still bad news.
And bwt why are you here, this is a Technics SU-R1000 thread stop shilling for AGD, your only causing it more hurt.
You both give nothing technical to your arguments at all. And this thread is about the Technics SU-R1000, not the AGD so take it somewhere else. Please
If
you want a powerful amplifier in a small case, a Class D NCore
amplifier from Hypex (Netherlands) has become a popular
choice" I said last month.
Reason being NCore has overcome all the
problems of Class D, notably high frequency distortion, load sensitivity
and D.C. on the loudspeaker terminals.
So I was a bit taken
aback to encounter all these problems on Technics new SU-R1000 Reference
not-Class D amplifier you can read about on p10.
I have to call it that
at their insistence, but that
it's not Class D is a technicality: all the same issues arise. It is
what is commonly termed an
'analogue switching amplifier'. These have been around for 20 years or
more, without gaining popularity – so a surprise that Technics should
try again in unconvincing fashion.
The editor here says that A/B amps are "near perfect". WAY off...
The review’s criticism fly-in-the-face of what every other review has said about these. Earlier digital-D’s -whether Technics, Lyngdorf TDAI or NAD M32 had no such complaints. Neither did Cordesman (at TAS) on this unit.
Remember, these don’t need a D/A or preamp before the power stage. They are 'disruptive’...
It’s sad, he’s the biggest offender of what he accuses others of doing. And the lack of comprehension... well that’s a whole other story.
I’ll state it once again, because you don’t comprehend!
"There is no way on the AGD that those tube pins can possibly take 32A of current let alone 50A!!! If they do, then burnout trouble to both pins and socket connections will happen eventually"
Then the socket and tube will have to be changed, and the even bigger trouble is guess what!! the GaN amp module is inside the tube!!!! Big bucks for that service work. For his sake hope it doesn’t happen in the warranty period, for owners hope it does.
Class D sucks!! There's no way an amp can draw 7 watts at the wall and produce 100W at the speaker! You are all deluded into thinking this stuff works.
- Me, cherry picking some random specification and then acting as if it actually mattered.
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