Full circle and thinking about speakers

Just thought I'd stop by and thank everyone. You all gave me a lot to think about and look at. I picked up a pair of Totem Hawk speakers today. I'm very pleased!

you w new Totems and others should try light loading ( dropping down a tap ) as promoted by the late great Roger Modjeski of Music Reference fame....especially lower spl listeners, condo dwellers, etc....

@audioconnection you are the third person who recommended the 4 ohm tap. so off came the cover and out came the wrenches. This is a significant change! Awesome and thanks.

@213runnin - I went to audition Totem Hawk’s and Spender D7’s yesterday. I was impressed with both. My conclusion (at the moment) is the Totem’s better suit my environment. The Spendor D7’s, were glorious but I think they would overwhelm my space.....and my neighbors.
I’ll call the dealer tomorrow and buy the Totem’s. And that Folks draws this discussion to its conclusion. Thank you everyone. This has been an enormous help in something I knew little about. Much Appreciated.
Next up is a new DAC, but not now!

Specifically looking at Totem Hawks and a few others.
Called an Audio place who happens to be a Rogue and Totem dealer. He invited me up to listen to a used pair of Totem Hawks thru the same Rogue amp.
I’d like to keep it simple and without multiple drivers, the complex crossovers that come with them, or subwoofers.

Smaarch1, you mentioned wanting something without multiple drivers and the complex crossovers.  I've taken apart my Totem Hawks, and indeed the crossover is one of simple elegance.  7 elements, but 3 resistors are wired in parallel, for instance.  All very high end components.

You'll love the Hawks, with the right electronics and cabling, they really are magical.  There is good reason why it's been in production for about 20 years with few changes.

((What I like about the B&W’s: clear detailed and focused.))Make sure you set the Rogue Cronus on the 4 OHM speaker taps with the B&W speakers!
  + Cheers Johnny R++++Audio Connection

Thanks for that - a 1/2 hour away. Very tempting!

One more:   https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649716438-joseph-audio-rm22xl-in-maple/images/3163099/.   

Spendor A4s are a tremendous option, and perhaps the one I would select if buying new.  The others I most recently mentioned might save you some money, ultimately, but getting a new pair of Spendors would be a real kick.  I would assume the Spendor S8e and A4 have similar sonic qualities.  The right used ProAc might also be tempting.  

Fleschler thanks for the recommendation to Legacy III - interesting pieces
howaboutthat41 The Spendor's you are referring to may be local to me and I have my eye on them. Don't know anything about the Kudos but will look.
Called a local dealer how has a set of Totem Hawks for sale (used) and is a Spendor and Rogue Audio deale He has invited me up to liston to the Hawks through the same Rogue I own.
So at this point I'm focused on the Totem Hawks and the Spendor A4's
Thoughts are much welcomed.

There is a nice pair of two-way Kudos 20 specials / supers on one of these sites (owner is looking for a bit over $3,000, I believe), as well as a set of Spender S8e's, for $1,200.   

I recommend used Legacy Signature IIIs which are usually $1600 to $2200.  94db efficient and 4 ohm but not much lower so easy to drive.  They are super dynamic with deep, punchy bass (3-10" woofers) with ambiance rear tweeter (opens up your room) and four way/four switch adjustments (ribbon supertweeter, soft dome tweeter, dual kevlar mids).  Great on rock and classical quartets, vocals and jazz.   I would also try to find a used Harbeth 30 or 40 series in your price range.   Low efficiency but 8 ohm+ impedance make it sound great with many amps.   Superb mids and can play dynamic rock and the most beautiful vocals.   I like Maggies, but not as an everything speaker.

@smaarch1 - if you ever want to crank up the volume without bothering your neighbors, perhaps a quality earphone/headphone?  Like at the end of a stressful day, sometimes it's nice to get lost in louder music provided it's not so loud it damages our hearing.  

The latest issue of TAS, The Absolute Sound, lists all their recommended components in different price points. Could be worth reading.

Thanks for more comments. So here’s an update. This weekend I’ll focus on arranging the space for a more appropriate listening/spatial experience. Should be fun and I know well what I want to do.
I’ve become interested in a few speakers since I posted this and doing my research. Taken by what I have read about Pearl Acoustic Sibelius full range single drivers. I like the simplicity and thee design approach - they make sense to me.
However after talking with some knowledgeable friends, my thoughts have shifted a bit to two way floor standers. Specifically looking at Totem Hawks and a few others.
Called an Audio place who happens to be a Rogue and Totem dealer. He invited me up to listen to a used pair of Totem Hawks thru the same Rogue amp.
I’d like to keep it simple and without multiple drivers, the complex crossovers that come with them, or subwoofers. Maybe not rational but an aesthetic thing i suppose?
I have to say I’m really intrigued by the Pearl Acoustics.....and single drivers in general.
Any thoughts on full range single drivers are welcome!
In the meantime I’m simply enjoying what I have - It sounds fairly awesome already.
@buckheadmacc - thanks for the suggestion and the well wishes

Have you considered a sub? I know It seems off topic but hear me out. I just bought a REL sub and I couldn't believe it but the highs sounded more sparkling and detailed than before. The midrange sounded more fleshed out and the bass is so textured and tight and nuanced. They made my speakers sound way better than they deserve to. I love my Enzos but with that sub blended in so seamlessly it was really surprising. Maybe you should consider trying out a REL sub like a T/7i and see if that doesn't make the BWs sound better? I hear SVS is good too but I have no experience with them.

The Cronus is supposedly pretty amazing. It sounds like a great place to focus your system around. As has been mentioned, Tekton speakers offer a lot of value for your buck. Not freakin pretty but I was definitely surprised by what I heard coming from my Enzos when I plugged them up. I think that's where alot of the fan base comes from for that company; you can see your money isn't being wasted on overpriced veneer etc. every dollar goes to better bracing and better implementation. If I had that amp Id roll with the Pendragons or double impacts for that size room. But the Maggies will make your jaw hit the floor with transparency and spaciousness! You could try the LRS or the .7? The Tektons gots the energy and drive (the are great for rock) and the Maggies have the clarity and sheer beauty. 
The Tektons are like standing in front of the stage and the Maggies are like an outdoor concert. I need a bigger place to get another pair.

Honestly though, if youre really want to try stuff out just order stuff and dig it or send it back or sell it to upgrade! 
Its all part of the journey right? 

With 100w you can run most regular speakers. 
Also, KEF. I've very much enjoyed every speaker I've had from them. Rich and smooth. Not as present as ZU and Tekton but nice to relax to. 

Hope you enjoy the ride what ever you decide!

  I recently went back to open baffle from back in the day, Dahlquist DQ10s to various box brands, IMF TLS80s (awesome speaker) Definitive, Ascend Acoustics, Revel, BW, etc to Spatial Audio Lab M3 Sapphires. They are taking a little effort to get them dialed in, but I won't go back.
Clayton Shaw, the designer and owner is also great to deal with.
 Driving them with Rogue Amp100, Rogue RH5 preamp they really are starting to shine on all types of music. I've had them for about a month.The artist Dominique doing a song called Shine is overwhelming. The bass fidel and the vocal harmonies are just amazing.

@buckheadmac.....Re 'lover levels'...(Yes, I know you meant 'lower', but....)....

Now, that's worth a comment or an exploration. ;)
All eyes to the screen....*G*

Speakers are such an extremely personal choice. However, I own a Rogue Cronus II,
and have had JM Labs (Focal), B&W 705 S2, Sonus  Faber Venere 2.5’s, and now Sonus Faber Sonetto V’s. All I can tell you is the Rogue matches extremely well with Sonus Faber speakers. At least worth consideration from experience. Best of luck!

I like this topic as I too live in a condo and trying to get the sound dialed in has been an issue. 
When I owned a home, I had a dedicated listening room that was fairly treated, and I was running Magnepan 1.7 powered by a McIntosh MC2600 and C220 pre and the sound from the Maggie’s were just stellar, especially for a speaker that was just a tad over 2k. Like others have posted, to get the most out of the Maggie’s, I had them five feet away from the back walls and about four feet from the side walls. It was a wonderful system. 
Divorce happened and I ended up moving into a high rise condo, so I had to figure out what to do as far as speakers and placement as I do not have the room for speakers to be far away from the back walls, plus my space is open, high ceilings and complete glass on one side. 
In my time in my condo, I’ve been through two changes of gear, as well as 5 different sets of speakers. My first were vintage B&W 803 Matrix and they sounded great, but they seemed a tad much for my space, especially having to worry about neighbors so I decided to go with stand mount speaker’s. I’ve had Monitor Audio Gold, B&W CM6’s, B&W 705’s and finally to my current speakers being a pair of pre owned early 2000’s B&W 805’s. The 805’s have seemed to be the best with my current integrated McIntosh MA352. 
I also wanted a system that could be listened to a lover levels and still enjoy great sound, and that is what I’ve found in good bookshelf speakers. The only thing lacking is deep bass, but like others suggested, I ended up buying a small B&W sub, and while it took a lot of tweaking, I have found that I’m very happy where I’ve ended up with a pretty balanced system. 
I wish you luck in whatever you end up with as far as speakers and getting them to work well in your environment. Btw on the 2k price, there is a lot of choices for stand mount, especially used. My current 805’s I picked up for just under 2k and the detail and soundstage are excellent. 

@realworldaudio I'm amazed at everyone's advise including millercarbon. He understands something and I'm here to learn so I appreciate it all.
@kennyc. Thanks I'll look them up.
As I stated in my last post, I need to acoustically  clean up my space - first order priority.
That said there are a  pair of Totem Hawks and a pair of Spendor's available locally that I'm interested in hearing....maybe this weekend?
Any advice on either is welcome

LSA speakers garnered many VERY positive reviews from professional reviewers - try Googling "LSA speaker reviews".

The LSA 20 Signature is on sale for $2.3k here: https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/lsa-speakers which is very inexpensive for the high sonic quality. I believe it’s a fantastic bargain.

Listen to @millercarbon, he has great advice. I have an easy task, just echo what he said... I also have the 92dB cutoff, and arrived there arbitrarily by myself. Go lower, and your amp selection to drive those sleepy buggers gets reduced, so you can choose between bad choices and very bad choices. (BTW plenty of good low sensitivity speakers out there, but the amps to drive them are well above the budget). Indeed, beyond 95dB you will need not worry about amp power, and you have the flea power kingdom wide open for you - esp with the condo living situation. Also, it is much easier to find a tonally right tube amp, than a tonally right solid state amp. (I have found exactly 1 tonally right SS amp so far... after 20 years of searching - but that's me, you might have different preferences, but as I hear, you are struggling with tonality, and it's not just the speakers but the amps as well that contribute to the situation).
Paradox with B&W: their best speakers I heard was the DM301 (or was it 302? their smallest bookshelf model, 20 years ago). Not the ultimate in resolution and low end response, but MUCH MUCH better tonality than any of the bigger models. (Incidentally one of the top 10 worst sounds I ever head was the Nautilus... crushed my dreams, as at that time I thought the Nautilus should be the ultimate speaker.) So, apart from the little model, I never heard a B&W that played balanced music.

Thanks everyone -  A  lot of knowledgeable responses. The latest advance occurred last night after hooking up an EAR phono stage  that just arrived. The first needle drop from the  Nottingham  was scary and shocking. The  room completely lit up! And so did I.
I believe the front end of my system, while not the "best", is rock solid. Not to say there can't or won't be improvements. There will.
But first I am going to take a step back and deal with rearranging the space. I see where the problems are and will help the B&W's out a great deal. Tonight I'll  make a big change and move  30  plus years of paper mass (drawings). That's where my bass is going -  I'm completely certain. It will also deal me where I am and give me a reference.  Much  appreciated everyone

@howaboutthat41 ,I have Fritz Carreras and got them to do -3db af 24 hz and 0db at 28hz.  The room was 11x13x8.  I ended up with a placement that gave me 0db around 32hz though.  That placement yielded the best imaging and soundstage.

@larry, larger cabinets, i.e. floorstanding vs smaller cabinets, i.e. standmounts, will usually produce more bass simply because of the larger box size.  Some speakers that I’ve had disguised themselves as floorstanding speakers but they were essentially standmount size in a larger cabinet with the whole lower portion of the cabinet being sealed off from the top portion.


@ the OP, $2000 isplenty to get something nice second hand or even new.  Just start researching speakers.  Your amp should play well with just about anything!

I've been in this hobby for a few years and here's a few things I've learned that may help you.

- You can only get so far asking people for speaker (audio) recommendations, even if you state your listening preferences. Only you will know what you will like. That said it's still not a bad idea and may help you make up a short list of speakers to audition.

- Never purchase speakers that your have not personally auditioned. Preferably with your own electronics and choice of music. 

- Find a good dealer or two in your area. Listen to as many speakers in your price range as you can and ask a lot of questions. 

- Home audition is better that in-store. Your room plays such a big part of how your speakers will sound. 

- Set aside some of your audio budget for room treatments. GIK is a good place to start. 

- Your may not get it right on your 1st, 2nd, or 3rd pair of speakers. Accept this as part of the learning process. 

- Your money will stretch a lot further on the used market.

- Ignore the tweakers. You don't need fancy power, speaker, or interconnects to start. Buy modest cables to start and they'll work fine. Ex. BlueJeans cables

With all of that said....I will throw out a speaker recommendation for you to put on your list. The Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary for $1200/ $1500 with stands. Very impressed with this speaker and am considering picking up a pair myself. 

Enjoy the journey and the music!

@russ69 I guess our definition of dynamics is somewhat different. Playing loud and pressurizing the room isn’t all of it. I’ve heard lots of speakers, including Maggies, do that. I’m talking about whip crack transients like snare drums and trombone blasts that can startle. Effortless sound that isn’t even trying hard.
And I’m sure you’re right, the 20s with big power will probably do most of that. I don’t think those are in the OPs budget. I was talking about magnepans that common everyday folk would be listening to, lol.

Oz

"...Maggies do a lot of things right. But anybody who says they do dynamics has never really heard a speaker that truly does do dynamics well..."

I generally agree but he did say he had 20s. With some big amps, those panels can pound pretty well. The panel is large enough to push decent air.    

@smaarch1....Since you mentioned the thought....

Try the short 14' wall first....all it requires is the time and effort.
A small sub might do the trick in the meanwhile while you consider your next move, gear or locale-wise.  A small unit ought to keep the neighbors at bay but allow you to make the B&Ws' livable yet....

Go take you ears on a tour for the next speaker pair if you opt to stay condo'd....Another space opens a whole new can of acoustics to fend with...and a whole new set of bills with new numbers to pay....and pay...and etc. ;)

And then there's the gear for a new space, which starts the whole thing all over again....don't let enthusiasm cause crazie...*G*

".... when you hear the full capabilities of the Bose Wave Radio."
Oh, come on, MC....no need to get rude...jez....:(

Larry the 305's are ported on the back about midway up. the 302's are bookshelf and the top portion looks identical but without the lower port
How much of a difference the port makes? I don't know.
The 305's can also be bi-wired, which they currently are.
Chorus - no not moving - just jokingcoachpoconner - great, thanks - more to consider

If you are near a move I would postpone any purchase.

Room differences. 

$2k used can get you some great sound.

Good Luck!

mc-
You can do a lot of room treatment for $1000.00. GIK has a starter kit for around $600.00. It can be just as impactful as buying new speakers. You also could buy red carpet and a lava lamp, but the smart audiophile would choose room treatment.
ps. They also have bass traps in red.

I just Googled your speakers and they look like a bookshelf speaker built in a tower cabinet.  Does the added space below the speakers serve to enhance the sound or are they designed to just look like tower speakers.  I have not seen these before.

Right off, I would look for a true tower speaker.  That would certainly improve sound quality.

Do you have subwoofers to extend the lower end frequencies?

Conventional wisdom is to settle on the speakers you like first, and then get an amp well capable of driving them.

Someone mentioned ProAc Response 2.5's a while ago.  They are phenomenal speakers, remarkable bass extension for size, really superlative performers.  Find a good used pair and you could be very happy.  And... they are easy to drive.

Maggies do a lot of things right. But anybody who says they do dynamics has never really heard a speaker that truly does do dynamics well. Sorry, but that’s really inarguable. I understand why people love them, I did too at one time. But that’s not their forte.

Everything mwinkc said about Magnepans is true and millercarbons rant against speakers below 92 db is pathetic. Yes, you need power to drive Magnepans, but when you have it, few speakers image or do dynamics as well. You'll also want a sub to enhance the bass. But just as important, if you care about money, is that Maggies sound better than any other speakers in the same price range. They are definitely considered a bargain. I bought a pair of Magnepan 20.1s on Audiogon (originally $12,000) for $5,500 and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

LOL  too funny - now I'm thinking of moving.
Great responses and I'm taking a step back.I agree with getting the front end settled first, room treatment and getting the speakers located on the short wall. I just don't know how yet - this wall is glass and opens to a balcony overlooking the Hudson River and the Palisades.
I haven't been able to find B&W spikes so yesterday I went to the hardware store and bought some M6 bolts and decoupled the speakers from the floor - BIG difference.
Yes the speakers have been moved off the front wall - inching forward
The other thing I am considering is my coffee table. Silly me... It consists of two flat files, filled with drawings and it weighs a ton. I have to believe this is soaking up a lot of sound.
And to Tom's point about the DAC - it is one of the cheaper Schitt DAC's, a Modi 2 and I have every intention of replacing it.
@inna I think the Ear phono stage will tell me a lot and I can hardly wait for it to arrive -  The Nottingham is sort of like having a Ferrari parked in the driveway and not knowing where the keys are..... 
All said  - this has been a great journey. Thanks everyone.

You eliminate lots and lots of wonderful speakers by sticking to some arbitrary made up sensitivity numbers....my wharfedale 225’s are only 87db, my tannoy legacy eatons, only 89db. They both sound wonderful. Amps are the Marantz pm14s1 @ 90 watts, and Sugden Signature A21se @ 30 watts (single ended pure class A). The marantz is/was used with the above 225’s when they were set up. The Sugden is currently used to drive the tannoys with wonderful results. Amazing how powerful only 30 watts can sound. Yes, at 87db, I’m sure the 225’s may not sound their best, but they sure responded to the 90 watt Marantz, which is a terrific integrated. It is in fact the last of the class a/b reference amps made by Marantz, as they have seemingly adopted class D for their topology on current designs (the ruby, the pm10, and the new model 30).
Buy the speaker you like, then buy the amp to match/drive said speaker. There are only a handful of 95db and above available, if you like the looks of teckton (i do not). The klipsch are ok, although some say too bright/fatiguing after long listening.....the zu line of speakers also offer high sensitivity, as well as devore.

For a killer system, I would recommend you buy a pair of wharfedale lintons @90 db, and a Rogue Sphinx v3 integrated @ 100 watts class D/tubed hybrid. About $3000 for both the amp and speakers, and that includes the stands! Most likely the best bang for the buck set up i can think of.

Rogue Sphinx v3 $1595
Wharfedale heritage lintons $1499 per pair (with stands) $1199 w/o stands.
Read the review of the lintons at Tone Audio, they love tubes!

Get out of that condo!

Hi MC.
OP's Rogue Cronus has 100w pc and he doesn't listen at high levels.
At 91dB sensitivity this will all work fine.

smaarch 1 ;
I do have a B&W powered sub and I usually use it with the maggies only it seems to kind of muddy up the sound due to the relatively slow physics of the dynamic sub driver compared to the ribbons in the maggies. But without the sub the maggies are somewhat lacking in the deep bass.
  Also the maggies require a good high-current amp with at least (IMO)  200 wpc. It's a low impedance speaker (at some frequencies the impedance dips down below 3 ohms) and it draws a LOT of current so many amplifiers just can't cut it. I bought a Schiit Vidar amp which has been working really well with them but if I crank the volume to high the amp sometimes shuts down. But it's OK since this amp has excellent protection circuitry just turn it off for a minute then back on and it's good to go. You can prevent this by putting your hand on the amp. If it's hot come down on the volume a little.

Buy a pair of older Vandersteen 2's from eBay! Often less than $1K! Why pay more? A classic design still in production!

That's the ticket. Professional acoustic design ain't cheap. Not much left for components, at least not for the 12 years it will take to pay off the second mortgage. But totally worth it when you hear the full capabilities of the Bose Wave Radio. 

Start with room treatment. You'll never hear what your speakers/system is capable of. Start with first reflection points. Locate your system on the short wall.

Good luck & happy listening!

Personally if you’re in an environment you can't play loud... if that’s a priority you may want to lead with that. You may not be looking for base extension if that's the case. But then you brought up a subwoofer so I’m not sure now. Maybe you feel you can turn it up after all? I was going to suggest the monitor audio line. For 2G you can look into the silver line of floor standers. They don’t have high sensitivity but honestly I’m only bringing it up since it’s been the trend to in this thread. Sensitivity doesn’t make a great or bad speaker. At the heart of it.... it dictates how loud your amp can drive the speaker. So again if you’re in a condo and worried about playing at high volumes... sensitivity may not matter at all. Perhaps you should also consider only getting bookshelf speakers. These will be a smaller cabinet enclosure and typically would be decoupled from the floor since you have to buy a floor stand for it. Bookshelves also do not have as deep bass extension as floor standers (generally speaking). If you get something like the monitor audio silvers and find you want a sub... their matching subwoofer is well reviewed.

Why does anybody listen or read Miller carbon’s posts and waste bits and bytes to reply. If you want cheap stuff, go the Miller way. 92db speakers? If his tektons were 85db, he would state you need 85db speakers. Get the speakers that you like, and then get the amp that compliments or fits the speakers. Or if you like a specific amp, then get speakers that will work with the amp. You won’t want a 5 watt SET amp with 86db totems, nor would you need the 1200 watt monoblocks if you had 104db avant garde speakers.
B&W speakers have been paired with Classe and McIntosh amps for over 10 years because those amps are on the warmer side and compliments B&W speakers.

I just re-read your original post.
Maggies are great at medium to higher volumes, but at low levels they can be pretty disappointing.  Those panels need a little juice to rise and shine.

You would definitely want a subwoofer with any remotely affordable Magnepan. The LRS, LRS, being the smallest is no exception.
Maggies are great speakers. I’m on my 3rd set. In any price range thet are stand-outs.
But... you’ll need a good high-current amp and lots of space. They want to be 3-5 feet from the wall and they can be very tricky to get positioned correctly.
If you have the room, the watts & amps and the patience, they’ll reward you.
They are very "fast", accurate and musical so don’t pair them with some slow, boomy subwoofer. Get a fast, accurate sub, like a REL.
The LRS comes with the cheapest, worst stands. If you look at all Magnepans above the LRS, you’ll notice that they all stand upright...not tilted back 15° like the LRS. There’s a reason for that. There are a few companies that make excellent after-market stands that will hold the LRS closer to vertical. "MyStands" is one such manufacturer.
I downsized and have a room that is technically too small for my Magnepan 1.7’s. With some room treatments they still sound incredible and are making it very difficult to get smaller speakers. I’ve tested some Keff and B&Ws. They sounded very nice, until I went back to the Maggies and heard everything that was missing from the others.
Enjoy your journey!

"Especially in your price range where Eric Alexander (of Tekton) has that market nailed down. "......... now that is some funny stuff......and not even for the statement’s absurdity but rather how transparent and, almost, strident the Tekton "shilling" is....and then the Miller guy gets angry and hurls insults when someone tries to keep it real and offer some genuine speaker advice for the questioner......sheesh....