Finally Learned: Subs serve much larger role than adding more low bass

If I were to use 4 subwoofers, I would need to custom stall wires and run them about 20 feet to the back wall..  

I researched subwoofers for a year and I thought REL's were the way to go.  Their high level connection allows them to act more like woofers than subwoofers.  You can adjust the gain, volume and crossover.  I am playing my two S2 SHOs at 40% volume.  I also feel two subs are far better than one for room balance.  My secon choice was Rythmik F12SE.

Carbon Miller knows the most about running a 4 subwoofer cluster.  This makes sense because it fills the room.  If you have any questions about how to use subwoofers in your system he is the most knowledgeable.  Averall, he is one of the most knowledgeable in our discussion group.  He is also one of the most willing to help.

Extended response down to 20hz without significant rolloff is rare and definitely impacts what you hear on many recordings.  One or more adjustable powered subs  and even a simple sound meter app to integrate properly solves the problem and one is very likely to take keen notice.   Nothing mysterious about it.  Amount of work and expense needed will vary case by case.   More subs can only be better once set up well. 

I too am a subwoofer convert. I bought a REL S/812 last year and couldn’t be happier. One thing I also notice as it was mentioned many times in this thread, is that the sub also enhances the SQ of mid & high frequencies. I never understood how this works. I always thought if you set your crossover at let’s say 50hz, the sub only outputs sound at frequencies below the crossover.

Can someone help explain in layman’s terms why a sub can enhance the SQ of frequencies way above the crossover point?

Thanks very much.

I'm an outlier apparently.

I had two JL Audio subs with their fantastic CR-1 crossover and also added DSP.

Nothing life changing.  Didn't do much for me.   Didn't find the added low bass to be significant and I preferred the tonality of my speakers without the subs.   Sold it all.  Happier with fewer ugly boxes in the room, fewer cables, less hassle etc.

(Great products...I just didn't need them to enjoy music).

Getting 1 or 2 subs that integrate well with your system after having a boomy sub meant for home theater gives you an appreciation for what subs can actually do for 2 channel stereo.  In a small room you can get away with one good sub.

These days, on the odd occasion that I have someone over or when I am discussing my setup with someone, I will mention that I have five subs. Invariably, they will make a comment about how my home theatre surround sound must sound awesome. I then tell them that actually only one sub is for the home theatre and the other four are for listening to music.  They are dumbfounded until I explain about how things actually work.    

If you like one sub, you will love four.

The title of this thread encapsulates my own experience. Several years' experience showed that my "subwoofer optional" Legacy Signature SEs simply couldn't play the Octave 0 notes present on some recordings. The gorgeous, enormous, discontinued Tannoy Definition subs being closed out at Upscale for 1/3 price, I couldn't resist. (This is after corresponding with Duke and realizing that the Swarm setup simply couldn't work in my non-dedicated listening room, and noting that RELs, like Model Ts, come only in black). 
So: the Tannoy crossover can be set at 31Hz, just where Legacys roll off steeply, then slope down at -24Hz/oct. from 31-120Hz. Result is a (nearly) seamless integration (current sub placement is temporary), with the sub not only playing flat & resolving bottom details down to 19 Hz, but also subtly enriching the overall sonic balance. So, yes indeed -- much more benefit than just fully resolving the Octave 0 content.  

Yes indeed. I put a bi-directional SVS Micro 3000 on my cabinet ...behind my TV, and it really rounds out the sound of my Klipsch Fortes. You can enjoy five or six settings on your cell phone... amazing world of sound now. 

Using a sub(s) is a topic that has no end as to whether to use one or not and how to integrate one into a system to produce the sound a listener prefers. I have posted this link in several post replies. Whether you are an expert on subs or not it's an article well worth reading. Quite lengthy but if you have the patience to read it you may gain some useful info......

http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

After years of owning a venue and working with live sound, I came back to my passion for home hi-fi. My budget exceeded my expectation, primarily because I felt that I needed a firmer low-end that a sub could provide.

While subtle, it is satisfying to hear the full range and knowing that there is nothing more.

My components:

Van Alstine - SET 120 and Transcendence PreAmp

Fritz Speakers

Rythmik F12SE

I could have foregone the Transcendence PreAmp and used the speaker level input from the SET 120, but Rythmik recommends low-level signal which the preamp gave me.

Overall, I am happy with the result

My experience has been a combination of validation and learning. The Rythmik F12SE PEQ has been magically supportive of my Maggie 1.7s; however, my integrated Cronus Magnum III has been challenging, because my Maggies can't keep up and need to be crossed over at 80hz, 24db/octave high pass 
 

So, I embarked on a passive crossover journey that resulted in a complicated story, resulting in me looking for a separate preamp, amp, and crossover.  I'm hopeful my journey comes to an end or something close to it soon, because the system sounds so good and is only getting better. 

Added a pair of SVS subs to my full range Kef Reference towers during covid lockdown.  One of my better upgrades with out a doubt!  I'm pleased with the addition.

musicaddict

173 posts

11-21-2021 12:14pm

First Velodyne F-1800MkII in southern CO in the 90s was to me. I've had plenty of subs since, some RELs and now some SVS sealed (additional subs, sell nothing!)

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Big difference going from passive radiators (REL) on the bottom with NO slot, to a sub you can actually decouple, like SVS.

I like SVS they are at least a bit more up to date with speaker design.. REL is WAY behind.. I laugh at the stuff on their web site. That design would benefit from an East LA bass head to teach them how NOT to piss off the neighbors and make GREAT bass.

REL rattles the whole house.. NO ONE around me uses that type of sub.. Pisses off the neighbors, especially in garage systems close to neighbors bedrooms.. .. LOL Waves in the neighbors  swiming POOL. Frogs vacating all the little ponds, JackHammer SUBS.. I Quit using that design in the 90s..

IB servo columns or OB servo stacks are a 10 in my book. REL 3-4, SVS 5-6, JL 6-7, IB servo dual or quad columns 9-10, GRs OB servo stacks 8-10 depends. Need two double 12" cabinets to really reap the rewards.. 

I've never heard ANY of the Wilson subs, but cab loaded drivers (horns) DIY are some of the best overall subs around. Jensen Imperial Subs is a good example.

Regards

Always forget:  first real experience in 'hearing' what a sub does without noticeable bass music was listening to Eva Cassidy's version of "Fields of Gold" a nice REL in the room. Turning the sub from off to on simply opened up the space Eva sang in. It was the first night and day experience I ever had 'hearing the room' through the subwoofer, and with no bass on the track.

First Velodyne F-1800MkII in southern CO in the 90s was to me. I've had plenty of subs since, some RELs and now some SVS sealed (additional subs, sell nothing!)

Moved from one REL B1 (in theater now) to three subs:  one SVS SB-3000 and two SB-2000s in my primary listening room, set at 50Hz. Need to add a fourth sub still and keep working a bit with positioning but it is much better than a single sub to my ears.

Most of the time they not particularly needed with my mains, but when low bass is on the track I hear it cleanly and with lots of backup reserve with subs set way low in volume. I'm a believer.

Yep, well integrated bass that is quick and tight and something that will play low (25hz) is a game changer.  It adds so much to the music including the mids, highs and soudstage.  Theres quite a bit of music that benefits from a sub, even in the midrange.  There are times were a solo vocalist has tones that go really low.  Somegimes it might just be that they blew into a mic to hard but it actually adds to the music.  Its hard to explain but once you here the bass in parts of the music, you can't unhear them.  

thoseboys, Your example says it much better than I could. Thanks!

Initially i was underwhelmed by adding a second sub.  Sure it helped a bit with staging and loading the room but all in all it didnt seem like the gamechanger i expected.  Fast forward and i'm trying a new amp, and whenever i make electronic changes i initially turn the subs off to do a:b comparisons (i don't know why) and my inital reactions to the new amp were mixed - cleaner less distortion and better at high volumes, all of which i liked, but the soundstage was now very much defined almost like a frame by the speakers, as opposed ti the whole front of the room.  I listened for a few days, decided i could live with and enjoy the new amp despite this trade off, and turned the subs back on.  Wow, everything got better - soundstAge was even bigger than before with the old amp, tones got more depth and instruments were more clearly placed, more musical and engaging.  Blew me away!  And i'm not using high end equipment, subs are vintage rel amp change was vintage krell to NAD m22v1, speakers thiel 2.3.

Yep.  Sometimes you have to open your mind.  And your ears.

Welcome aboard. Your header says it all.. it effects more than just deep bass. I am a Rel owner now for 15-20 yrs

Multiple,properly integrated subs enhance all frequencies. 

No kidding. 

I wasn't so much a sub denier, but thought my 20 year old velodyne sub was fine, until it bit the dust and I brought a new JL Audio with DSP. I agree with your statement of how much better it integrates, it just seems like my speakers noew have better, cleaner bass. The sub seems not to be there, but it is. Enjoy!