Finally, I am not questioning the OPs facts, but perhaps there is a big misunderstanding about the "5% for 1 hour" thing??
@xtremefidelity First of all, a 1-hour demo is absurd. Second, paying $250 to demo a $5000 component at home for an hour is even more absurd. Your competitive advantage is you have first crack at customers in your area. Allowing them to do demos at home is something you offer that costs online sellers, and almost alway potential customers, much more to do so use that to your advantage. Have a policy where you loan stuff out on whatever day you’re closed so there’s no downtime for that product in the store. You don’t have to bring it them as most often they’ll be more than happy to come pick it up and bring it home themselves — I did — so it costs you no time or effort. If you don’t have a demo unit available for a potential customer to try, shame on YOU because you’re undermining your strongest competitive advantage. Just have a verbal agreement that if they’re interested in the component they’ll give you the opportunity to compete for the business and to just let you know what their current best offer is. Now, this doesn’t include large, heavy equipment where you have to help a customer get it into their room and set it up, but they should understand this and expect to pay something reasonable for that labor-intensive service and they have the means to pay for it, and if they aren’t willing to pay anything at that level it’s a big red flag unless they’re an established customer. And the big profits on those products make it more than worth the effort. Communicate to them that you want to EARN their business and add services like if they buy something you’ll help them set it up in their system. THAT’S the kind of service people appreciate and will pay up for. If they have a problem with a component, tell them they can just bring it back to you and you’ll take care of it because you can do it much easier than they can. THOSE are the type of things you can do as a local dealer that no online retailer can even touch. You have a huge advantage, especially as there are fewer and fewer brick and mortar retailers every year, so think about how you can leverage that competitive advantage that online retailers can’t match and what frustrates so many online customers. Also, consider adding outstanding product lines that protect their dealers and aren’t offered online where there’s a local dealer. These are just a few ideas off the top of my head, but I’m sure there are many, many more. Rethink how you can use your considerable advantage rather than thinking of it as a negative, and you can blow those online retailers away because you have a ton of things to offer the internet can never provide. Get creative. Once you figure out how to go over and above what customers expect you’ll grow word-of-mouth advertising, become a place of respect and trust where you’ll become the go-to place for audio in your community, and grow a very loyal customer base. Just my $0.02 FWIW, and best of luck going forward.
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I think there are users who abuse the system and the good will of dealers. I wouldn’t loose sleep over one dealer being unreasonable when so many are so generous.
I don’t know any other country where you can do this, order things, send them back, take it home from the dealer to try, the US is an amusement park for adults. For my good conscience, I never order or try anything I am not interested in keeping, but if it does not impress me, I send/take it back.
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I wouldn’t do it as a buyer but I can understand why some vendors might charge a premium to demanding customers that are unsure of what they are buying in regards to streamers in general. Features vary widely and those less technically adept in particular may have trouble sorting through the options effectively.
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@grislybutter
“I don’t know any other country where you can do this, order things, send them back, take it home from the dealer to try, the US is an amusement park for adults. “
I don’t necessarily think that’s a USA thing. I lived in Communist Shanghai China for 6 years and same thing from any place half way reputable. Took back 2 different pairs of speakers after a week or so for full refunds. Although I did tip the sales guy like 200 rmb (30 bucks) in both instances.
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@mofojo
I would have never guessed.
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"He had a demo unit and was willing to bring to my home for an hour and let me try."
A whole hour? That’s funny.
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@xtremefidelity +1
your description of the process of auditioning a product from a dealer then searching for the lowest price from ANYBODY is spot on. Having said that, if the product is already a store demo, I wouldn't charge a rental fee for a couple of days (I agree an hour is ridiculous, it would be like marrying someone after a coffee date) but any transport/setup would include a non-refundable charge (can't return labor). Also keep in mind that every day that product is out of the showroom could potentially lose a sale to a customer who wanted to hear it in the store. The rental fee is a bad look, but perhaps the dealer isn't the ogre being portrayed here, but instead just has experienced this scenario before.
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I once read a church reader board that stated: "A Good Friend Stabs You in the Front"
At least the dealer was forthcoming about the rules of engagement and gave you the opportunity play, or not play -- upfront. Your call.
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Of course dealers make a profit from the sale. What we are discussing here is the expectation of getting their expertise and home demos of expensive equipment without the sale. Free demos when you have no existing relationship; expecting a huge part of the dealer's margin as upfront discount; and/or taking the dealer's time, demo equipment or expertise and then buying from a cheaper source is what I'm talking about. I never implied that this was you @svenjosh. I'm replying to other posts on this thread and industry trends. And @svenjosh, I clearly said "perhaps this is a big misunderstanding" about the "5% for 1 hour" thing. I never suggested you were "misstating facts". Perhaps the dealer misunderstood what was going to happen or perhaps you did. As a dealer, I just doubt that what he really meant was he would bring it to your house and charge you for 1 hour. That's why I think someone misunderstood.
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@svenjosh
I think I know the dealer you are referring to. If it is, he is the gentleman who sold me my Grimm. He is a stand up guy and once you’ve developed a relationship with him, you will understand why he does what he does. Its rational.
For instance, (if he is who I think he is) he is typically setting up 6 figure systems and time is money. For a new customer with whom there is no relationship, returns are a serious thing. Not you nor I but many “buy” only intending to demo, return and then shop for the best price. Why dont you take your dac to his store and that way you can test your dac with the multiple server/streamers he sells?
This dealer is one of the best in the business. Full stop. Is the demo fee high? Yes. Would I pay it? Not when I’m local and demo there with my dac.
But this dealer is one of the good guys in our hobby, he is worth developing a relationship with and he is an easy recommendation. In fact, he gets a note from me once a year thanking him for the relationship we share. The other trusted dealers with who I do business do as well.
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Xtrremefidelity Music Direct gives you 60 days trial, No question ask if you return it.Of course you have to buy it. I also agree where some will Audition the gear ? Then buy elsewhere? That’s is wrong.The dealer did not read the OP intentions. He is a serious buyer.
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Ghasley the dealer you are talking about ? He has done business with you and made money from you ? Why you receive annual card? My Persian rug store send me card before I bought the rug. Typical audio highend dealers who won’t treat newbee nice. I have experienced it so I know.
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@jayctoy
I send and receive notes to/from those with whom I have business or personal relationships. Its something thats done in certain circles.
I have found that clear expectations up front has helped to establish some great relationships while enhanced expectations usually follow excellent transactions be they any size of one to one purchase. I've never shopped for Persian rugs although I certainly wouldn't rule it out in the unlikely event the Persians somehow begin to weave rugs to an aesthetic standard that would fit our decor.
In the old economy, the dealer/retailer had to get on bended knee to earn the business...but they were only competing with others in the same business. With the advent of online sales, there are so many more options for the consumer that the local dealer/retailer must prequalify the potential client. This is one way.
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@ghasley Always the voice of reason and a cultivator of relationship and trust vs. the shallow transactional view of an ART obsession we chase in the service of music reproduction.
I amassed 12 phono stages …at home for a week long trial….. thru relationship…
PM me the dealer Kind Sir, most likely somebody i can relate to…..
Peace
Jim
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Ghasley +1 agree, excellent post . Iam only hoping that audio dealers carefully treat new costumers with respect , true relationship is very important especially on this hobby. Iam also greatful that there so much options online now to compete with unfriendly audio local stores.
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It requires a big investment to be a good high end dealer but some of them don't want to have demo product. I would love to carry a box to your car and cash a $5000 check too. If that's your dealer you can do better especially if you are willing to pay retail prices.
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@ghasley
It was good to see someone with actual dealer/customer experience share their observations related to the dealer in question. The more important comments for the OP would have been not such much an invitation to "pile on this dealer", but rather, ask the question: "Does his policies work for you?" If not, choose another dealer. Or: "Why didn’t we connect?"
As I read thru the early posts, and being an retired dealer, I came up with several scenarios/explainations of my own.
1) the guy IS a jerk. A later post by gasley easily disqualified this option.
2) he’s a hardened and caloused audio dealer, who’s had his fill of being jerked around, and simply taking the position that "enough is enough!" Maybe?
3) he’s reached a "good place" in his audio career and spends the bulk of his time supporting the customers who kept the letters in his sign burning out front for decades. He has already arrived at a point where closing a sale RIGHT NOW is no longer a strong motivator. Instead of a whack-a-mole business philosophy he has learned where to best position valuable resources, including himself, and acts accordingly. Being a "good steward of his customer’s money" is high on his list of priorities. His customers are perfectly okay with him making money -- they want him to stick around for a while. Some may actually understand the element of "fair exchange" and maybe even send him an annual "Thank You" card.
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Tales from the Dungeon of Customer/Dealer Exchanges
Customer 1:
A customer visits the store and shows an interest in upgrading a current component. After a nice demo and quality time spent, the customer expresses an interest in the item. The dealer offers to allow him to take it for a home demo. After the home demo, customer reports back later with unit in hand and says he wants to purchase it. One problem, though; he has to get rid of his curernt piece first. The dealer does not do trade-ins (at the time), but later checks a card file and finds someone who might be interested. He makes a call to the prospect, puts the deal together and accepts the cash on behalf of the other customer. The new customer is notified of the good news, drops in to pick up the cash, and tells the dealer "he will be in Friday after he gets paid to pick it up." Friday passes. No customer. Then, the next Friday, and the next. A few weeks later a familiar customer drops in who happens to be acquainted with the other customer. When asked what was going on, he replied: "Oh, he got a better deal online and didn’t have to pay sales tax."
Customer 2:
Customer calls all frantic. It’s the week of Christmas, they just bought something at a Big Box store and want us to install it for them BEFORE Christmas. We explain that we’re booked solid and can’t accomodate. They scream at us and say they’ll never do business with us again!!
Customer 3:
Custom enters the store and asks if we can dispose of an item for them. They knew we had a means to handle this. They explain that they just bought a new one at a competitor and didn’t have a way to dispose of the old one. Since they have done some business with us before, we didn’t want to piss them off, so we agreed to accommodate. A few minutes later, they walk back inside and explain that the item was too big and bulky to handle themselves and asked if we could give them a hand. We did. Haven’t seen them since.
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@ghasley your contribution to Grimm thread is vary valuable and I certainly believe you. I am not sure you know the dealer. I did not reveal any info on the dealer as I did not want a single interaction with one customer to damage his business. He has been in business for a few years and I do not think he would still be operating if he was a bad dealer. For whatever reason, he decided to charge me for a home demo. I have moved on and so all good.
The purpose my thread was to get information regarding home audition. I accomplished that with the help of amazing audiogoners! I just got the Grimm today for home audition today form a very friendly dealer. I will set up everything later tonight and evaluate the new addition to my system. Hopefully it will sound as amazing as it was described and I will end up purchasing the streamer.
Once gain thanks to everyone who contributed!
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Seems like a lot of whining going on by dealers here. Learn how to adapt and use your inherent competitive advantage to your advantage and let potential customers demo a piece at home on a day when your store is closed Let a new customer know after they demo a component that you will compete with other offers they may see and discuss the advantages of buying from you versus buying online. Adopt manufacturers who either don’t sell online or disallow internet sales where there are local dealers. Offer to help set up a component in their system or help set up their whole new system. You have a considerable competitive advantage here, you just have to creatively think about how you can leverage it rather than just feeling like victims. The days are gone when you can just demo something in the store and have the customer walk out the door with it while you count your $$$. Adapt or die. It’s as simple as that. There are lots of people here who are loyal to their local dealers precisely because they offer services that go over and above what any online retailer can deliver. If you’re not prepared to provide that level of service to earn business and rather just charge your prospective clients egregious fees just for people to hear stuff, I wish you luck.
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@svenjosh
I am not sure you know the dealer.
I’m almost positive I’m right about the dealer…in fact, I would wager the cost of an in home demo that I’m right LOL! I hope you like the Grimm.
@soix
I don’t think we’ve seen any dealers whining…your points may be valid…or not, depending on the dealer’s goals.
If it’s the dealer I’m thinking of, this person enjoyed a very successful career, retired and started his audio shop. He carries some super high end gear and imports certain other high end, well regarded gear. I’m so very sorry the OP and this dealer found themselves with opposing goals because the OP seems like an outstanding individual and i know, first hand, that the dealer is. This dealer is indifferent IMO as to whether he sells a box or not. He would probably be the first to tell you that he doesn’t sell boxes. You say adapt or die? That doesn’t apply to this dealer I assure you. I would say that he curates systems rather than selling gear.
All’s well that end’s well and the OP was able to accomplish his goals.
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Crutchfield also has a good return policy and offers online support. I bought a Cambridge Evo 150 there awhile back because it was a safe bet for me in that the Evo was a huge experiment and I had no idea exactly how it would turn out. Much of this hobby is that way. You take a risk buying expensive, complex lesser known boutique products from boutique dealers. Worth it to some but not for many.
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If I’m a local dealer and I have a chance of selling a $12,500 DAC, I DAMN WELL LET HIM HAVE IT FOR A DAY OR TWO!!! What??? What’s absolutely wrong with this dealer??? HOW ARROGANT, and I’m so glad you decided to go elsewhere. When you buy this excellent streamer, and I have a strong inclination you will, go back and rub it in this dealer’s face. He needs to know what a disservice he’s doing to his prospective customers versus what other dealers are willing to do. He’s an idiot.
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I think it makes sense that the dealer does not want to "loan" you the unit, even with CC hold.
The problem is that you could damage the unit, possibly not even realizing it. Or realizing it but then not wanting to buy the unit.
The headaches would be huge either way for the dealer.
Buy from Amazon and don't deal with all this nonsense...
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@soix
The Grimm is a streamer/server rather than a dac. Second, and I repeat this respectfully, if you find the policy distasteful, you aren’t that particular dealer’s target market. $12,500 is alot of money to many people but I promise it isn’t to this dealer. He isn’t arrogant in the least in my experience, just pragmatic.
If I happened to be a dealer of hifi gear…and if I voluntarily chose to have a policy of a 5% fee to demo a piece of gear in your home…. and if you rejected the offer…swinging by the shop to “rub it in the dealer’s face” would absolutely validate the strategy that was employed.
The OP was obviously an exception, but smaller headcount dealers must allocate their time to maximize either financial returns OR maximize what they enjoy doing. The dealer to whom I am referring (who I’m certain is the dealer in question) doesn’t appear to be driven by the money, he is comfortable. Sure he wants to do business but he does it the way he wants.
Prior to selling my company almost 30 years ago, it didn’t get really fun and really profitable until I began being more selective with whether to take on a new client or to decline an engagement.
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If I happened to be a dealer of hifi gear…and if I voluntarily chose to have a policy of a 5% fee to demo a piece of gear in your home…. and if you rejected the offer…swinging by the shop to “rub it in the dealer’s face” would absolutely validate the strategy that was employed.
@ghasley Really? Paying $650 for an hour review doesn’t seem out of line to you? How about this — it was so egregious the OP actually did go elsewhere and got a much better offer due to this dealer’s insane policy. Defend it if you must, but from a customer’s point it’s completely out of bounds, and the dealer lost a big $$$ sale because of it. How much effort does it take to let a customer pick up a DAC and have him demo it for a day? Nothing. Nada. And certainly not worth $650 for an hour, new customer or not. You’re kidding yourself dude. Adapt or die.
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Ghasley when I go to audio dealers if I feel Iam not welcome, I just leave.Why waste time with those dealers.
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@jayctoy
Ghasley when I go to audio dealers if I feel Iam not welcome, I just leave.Why waste time with those dealers.
That’s a rational course of action. Clearly the dealer in question has honed their business model to their preferred method of operation. Not everyone will want to do business with a particular dealer and not every dealer will want to do business with a particular customer. Its all good.
@soix
Really? Paying $650 for an hour review doesn’t seem out of line to you? How about this — it was so egregious the OP actually did go elsewhere and got a much better offer due to this dealer’s insane policy. Defend it if you must, but from a customer’s point it’s completely out of bounds, and the dealer lost a big $$$ sale because of it.
Listen, I’m not saying the policy is a rational policy for all. It is though a dealer’s right to decide how they wish to do business. They don’t typically decide to implement policies like these without empirical data they’ve evaluated. You characterize it as $650 for an hour and you find it outrageous. Cool. In the context of your world it likely is and I wouldn’t argue your point. I can imagine though that its an hour to get to the customer, an hour in the home (which it will probably exceed given the nature of the hobby) and an hour back to the shop to replace the demo unit in its rightful place. So, $200/hr plus fuel and wear and tear all around. I wouldn’t look up from my ipad for $200/hr but everyone is different. You describe it as a “gotcha” moment for the dealer that he lost a “big $$$ sale”…but for this dealer, $12,500 is more likely to be the sales tax of his average sale. There are only so many hours in the day and he has chosen how to allocate those hours. Is this dealer for everyone? No, of course not, but he has made a decision to not play in certain segments of the hifi market. Let’s just say his typical customer isn’t cross-shopping Gustard or Topping…they are more likely looking at a system approach, they want the dealer to deliver the highest quality system and price is secondary. As I previously stated, I believe I know the dealer and have done business with him and he is the farthest thing from arrogant or entitled. He is friendly, helpful, professional, communicates promptly and clearly, provides exceptional advice before the transaction and exceptional service after the sale. He may have just decided that he’d rather play golf on a Sunday afternoon than spend it providing free demos from which to be cross shopped. You miss a sale here and there but you avoid the time suck that many in our hobby unwittingly impose on others.
Do the 5% demo thing or don’t but at least the dealer is transparent and the potential customer can decide for themselves as the OP did and he chose the right path for him. The OP made the decision, found a dealer whose values aligned and its all good. He chose to pay shipping both ways and that particular dealer assumed the risk of shipping mishaps, etc. The OP did everything correctly for his circumstance and exercised his options. The dealer did nothing wrong and chose NOT to sell the leisure time he would normally spend with his family or church or enjoying an activity of his choosing rather than give away his time for free…They both successfully exercised their options appropriately for their particular circumstance. That’s the way its supposed to work.
Adapt or die.
I chuckle at this comment. On the surface, it sounds good…its a nice sound bite. The reality is that this dealer DID choose to adapt. He maximizes his available time and focuses his efforts where it makes the most sense for his business. You may or may not agree which is cool but again, if its the dealer I’m thinking it is, he’s been in business 15 years, has a brick and mortar location, stocks product, provides service, promotes local and national charities and is a joy to do business with for those willing to step over the small hurdle initially and establish a relationship. The OP seems to be a great person and he chose a path most of us might have chosen. The other side of that coin is the OP had never done business with the dealer in question (again, I’m assuming its the dealer to whom I refer) and he’s been in business for 15 years in the same community! So there’s that…maybe this dealer isn’t looking for a one and done customer…
So many of us in this hobby believe every dealer or manufacturer owe us something, which is unfortunate. Adapt or die????? I might suggest that this dealer made a decision to “swipe left or swipe right” on his own terms and its working wonderfully for his business and work-life balance.
And before you say to yourself “another greedy dealer “stealer” at play” I happen to know this dealer stepped up big time for the family of a manufacturer loved for many years in this forum and the audio community at large. Like many small manufacturers, this terrific guy was perpetually under capitalized and financially unprepared for his own untimely passing, leaving his family in the lurch. This dealer quietly stepped up to ensure they were taken care of and that an orderly transition would be possible for the family. So, he chose to invest a considerable amount of time and his own money for zero gain because it aligned with his value set. Toss generic popcorn from the bleachers if you will…but choosing how you do business and having it work out well, keeping your freedom, taking no crap from anyone and pursuing your passion as a business is kindof the goal for us all isn’t it?
The customer is always right worked out very well for Sears (Amazon before there was an Amazon) didn’t it but the whole statement should be “the customer is always right, until they aren’t”. There is a barrier to entry to many of the finer things in life. We can choose to play or not to play but I repeat, if you find the policy offensive and refuse to ever consider doing business with this particular dealer, then his policy accomplished its goal: to filter some great potential customers (like the OP likely would have been) in order to filter the potential perpetual tire-kicking, time-sucking person more interested in discussing the mixing board at Woodstock and the good old days when he could spend every Saturday afternoon hanging at the audio shop without ever buying anything.
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It’s been said that the magnitude of what happened during the first second after the Big Bang is greater than what happened in the billions of years afterwards. I wasn’t there, so I have to take someone else’s word for it.
I’ll like to suggest that the first mintute of your encounter with a someone representing the dealer is the most important. Were they "nice" to you? And, oh yeah, were you "nice" to them? It’s an "interview" by both parties. Sizing each other up, based on some initial reactions to make a (sometimes rapid) determination of whether to more forward, or hit the "exit" button. Next dealer!! Or, next customer!! And, what’s the next step in this "courtship" to reach a mutual objective?
The dealer is IN the business. They should know what to ask, and when to ask it. So, all things being equal, it’s the dealer’s responsibility to make it go right. But, this isn’t always the case. Afterall, these probably weren’t naturally born "audio guys". They were astronauts-in-training as a child, who preferred English Lit in college, only to discover the lucrecisity (is that a real word?) of stated profession caused an unplanned detour into "something else". They loved music and technology, adopted an audio vocabulary, and showed up to work at the Hifi shop on Day One with a pretty good collection of their own demo materials. So, here they are, standing in front of a potential customer trying to salvage some degree of respect and dignity. And, yes, that first minute matters to them, too.
Being degraded to the status of "broker" is frustrating and, frankly, humiliating to the salesperson. Bickering over model #s and price is far less appealing than an accessment based on needs and wants. But, the dealer also has the opportunity to "humanize" the relationship -- if the potential customer will give them permission to do so. If they miss this opportunity, then shame on them. But, the potential customer can fill in the blanks as well. "Why did you get into the audio business?" Or, "What was the most memorable concert you ever attended?" will get you on the right path of a relationship built on respect and trust. On the other hand, you are a guest in their "home" and should be treated as such. How you handle the first minute will make the difference between a being treated as an invited guest, or a time vampire.
As a consumer, I often find myself having to "train" others on how to sell to "me". If we can leave our egos and the front door and focus on OUR objectives, salesmen who are rough around the edges or full of themselves can be "fluffed out" a bit and converted to an asset if you're willing to try. You might just help push their careers in a positive direction while getting what YOU want in the process. A win, win.
So, OP. How about that first minute?
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@waytoomuchstuff I read your novel, I didn't know it was such a complicated relationship. I thought it's mainly a transaction: "I have the money", "you have the goods" kind of thing.
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Ghasley +1, you are good contributor to Agon. Nice post again. True not everyone will be happy how high audio dealer do their business. Ghasley the only way you can get the attention of those kind of dealers is tell them your speakers are Wilson grand slam or Magico top of the line. And your cables are alll synergistic top of the line and conditioner.You tell the guy you own Turntable Tec das listed on Agon 90k . And you decided to try streaming ? And ask for streamer recommendations.And of course you have to speak in audiophile terms.i will bet you the treatment will be different.
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Ghasley the dealer involve here is no longer willing to have a new costumers . Probably he is doing 80//20 principle as long as he keep the 20% rich costumers forget the 80%.Sometimes dealers will do their best to find reason so will not bother them again.They will only deal with their old costumers that they adore and their money.its very sad.
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"So many of us in this hobby believe every dealer or manufacturer owe us something, which is unfortunate"
this is the first time I hear this. I have yet to meet one dealer who pays attention to me like car dealers do or somewhere in between. They are always busy, always on their laptop or cutting wires, and that sets the tone that they are running the show.
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whole thread reminds me it’s time to send out cards and drop off a nice bottle of Davis - Pinot to my friends and fellow passionate music lovers : Rutan at Audio Connection, Alan at HiFi Buys, Jon at Ultra Fidelis, Don at Don Better, Robert at Taylor House ( retired ), Arnold at Core Audio, Thom at Galibier, Peter at PBN, entire team at Echo, Bruce and Ray at Stereo Unlimited, Randy at Optimal, Victor at Advanced, Tony at RAM tubes ( RIP Roger ), Andy at Vintage Tube, Brent Jesse at Brent Jesse….
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It seems the consensus my some here that the dealer is the bad guy, and the customer is the good guy.
I’d just like to interject a question: Did the dealer let the customer down? Or, did the customer let the dealer down?
I wasn’t there.
When the customer crossed the threshold of the business, there was some value added for the customer. He is free to wander, observe, touch, and listen. He also may get the added benefit of an intellectual exchange with someone familiar with the products on display. IF the customer was introduced to the brand, presented with all the good reasons to consider it, there is true VALUE for the customer.
So, NOW we get to (in this case) the hard part. How do we put this deal together? There is a rational, and reasonable agrument that the dealer didn’t see the "right" buying signs, and felt the risk (of damaged equipment) was not worth the potential benefit. It was his call. We should respect that.
I can also make the argument that his "fee" was reasonable, based on a number of factors. (Details provided upon request)
I’m not a prophet, but I’m going to predict that the OP is going to get the unit from another dealer, love it, and make the purchase. Which would have happened IF he had just agreed to purchase it and take it home in the first place. So, the dealer who introduced him to the brand, let him see it, touch it, and listen to it gets nothing.
Like I said; I wasn’t there. But, as a consumer, I would have worked pretty hard on behalf of the dealer who introduced me to the product and took the time to fill in the details. As one poster stated: "Why not take YOUR current streamer to shop, and do a shootout with the prospective product?" This would have provided a workable solution for all those financially vested in the outcome.
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@ghasley
i agree with most of your points. This is my problem was regarding the “demo fee”. I clarify again. I am less than 10 minutes from the dealer. I gave him a clear option of paying full sale price (msrp) and taking the demo out by myself and returning within his specified hour. Even with this option, I was willing to pay a reasonable fee for demo. He insisted on bringing the product himself. Question was whether 5%, 625 was reasonable. Of course it’s his right to business anyway he chooses to. It’s also my decision whether I decide to business with him.
I am not sure how you dismiss 12500 as not being worthy of his attention. There is no high end dealer who will walk away from a 12500 sale. FYI, my current dealer who is sending me the Grimm has more high end products that the previous dealer can only dream of. I am still not sure if you know the dealer, maybe you are thinking some other dealer.
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there is a simple approach: charge a demo fee and waive it if the customers ends up buying the product.
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For those willing to dig…a manufacturer/ designer of renowned MC cartridges almost begged ( my words ) a prospectus customer to NOT buy his cartridge….. then the peanut gallery of armchair cartridge designers weighed in……
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Waytoomuch in this situation the dealer is bad .The OP made it clear about his buying intentions.My 0.2 cents.
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@jayctoy @grislybutter @svenjosh
You may be right @svenjosh , it may or may not be the same dealer. I checked with my dealer and he doesn't charge 5%. He charges a token flat fee of a couple of hundred dollars pending the establishment of a relationship. He does charge 15% if you want to take a new, sealed unit and choose to return it. I don't believe a restocking fee would be considered out of line for fair minded people. That's fair. Its unfortunate that the dealer you describe doesn't reflect the high character of the dealer I've been describing.
Like in most areas of life, we get half the story and burn one side or the other at the stake. I do hope the OP posts his thoughts about the Grimm in his system and praises the dealer who sold it to him. We need more, not fewer, great dealers who take the risk, invest their money in stocking product, pay taxes and support an economy through their entrepreneurial efforts. Peace.
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Gents, I’ll comment once again that the dealer, being in the business, should possess the knowledge (including people skills) to make it go right in MOST situations. I’ll also state once again that I wasn’t there. Therefore, I don’t know the dialog, body language, etc. to accurately judge one way, or the other. We’re trying to assess whether a charge for home demos is "standard", and think there may be circumstances where this could be warrantied. The following comments are going to contain a lot of "IFs". That is intentional because those factors would have to be present (in my view) to justify a charge for a home demo. Again, I am looking from the perspective of the proprietor with an investment in storefront, demo rooms, inventory, rent, etc. -- plus my (or other staffer’s) time investment.
IF the customer begins asking about "deals", it could be a red flag. There is a tactful way to begin a conversation about this topic. And, the wrong way. It very possible for the dealer to get the impression that, yes, they ARE going to buy the piece. They are just not going to but it from them. This is purely subjective by the dealer and could be based on past experience of bad outcomes. This being the case, why would the dealer hand over a piece of delicate gear to aid a customer in making a buying decision who has a low prospect of buying from them? In this case, the dealer WAS willing to provide a service for the customer. He just wanted to get a fair price (and, I think it WAS fair) for providing the service. Quick math: A "typical" business of this type needs to produce around $250 per hour of gross profit to pay the bills. This is varies by dealer, but provides a number to work with. The process of tearing down a piece of equipment from display, boxing it, transporting it, unboxing it, setting it up, etc. will consume at least an hour and a half of the dealer’s time. So, BEST CASE is the dealer will lose 2 1/2 hours of time x $250 = $750. At best, this would be a break even for the dealer given his departure from other business activities for that time period.
Asking for a refund if you don’t like it can also make a dealer very nervous. "Open box",and "B-stock" items have a tangible cost to the dealer. They can not be LEGALLY sold as "new in carton" and therefore must be discounted. Some manufactures provide "inventory balances" or "stock adjustment" benefits. Open goods will cost the dealer around 15%. In the case of the Grimm, this would be a pretty large number. Also, inventory can be "moved sideways" to other dealers who need inventory at times. The dealer would also take a hit in this situation. ALL of the risk falls on the dealer in this case. None on the consumer. Unless the dealer misrepresented some aspect of the product, it would be reasonable for the consumer to take some responsibly or risk in THEIR decisionmaking.
Body language. IF the customer is cold, disconnected, won’t make eye contact, or hesitant to share personal information, they COULD be signs of "something just isn’t right here." The dealer would act accordingly, and hold things close to the vest.
I am not suggeting that ANY of these situtations were present in the OPs interaction with the dealer. I am just providing some sets of circumstances where a charge for a home demo would be a reasonable computation.
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@waytoomuchstuff you claim that you had no idea what really transpired yet you write paragraphs…..
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So who is this Dealer? I have doubts that a dealer you dont personally know packed up and shipped a $12,500 player to you. I would like to call them and ask.
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I have run my own business for 23 years. IMO, this dealer is likely using the fee as a way to weed out customer’s who don’t have the means or intent to buy something this expensive or if the streamer requires set up for the customer by the store or re-configuration once back in the store - or a bit of both. The part I don’t understand is the 1 hour limit, unless the store is open 7 days a week. There is no way to truly demo a high end nuanced product in 1 hour - which would be even less after set up. The owners must not like home demos and be of the mind set of listen in the store if you if you like it, buy it, if you don’t then don’t buy it. People buy $100,000 cars after a 20 minute test drive. I personally would not do the demo because 1 hour is not long enough. I would buy a 1 thousand streamer though and pay the $50 for a day's demo.
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@dznutz No one will ship expensive stuff to random strangers. I did give my credit card and authorized a hold of the full purchase price. If I like it I send it back and get a new one shipped. If not, I send it back and pay only for shipping. I like it so far. I am still waiting for the AES cable before deciding. PM me if are really interested, I can hook you up
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I believe in respect and relationship. I only purchase audio gear from dealers that want to build a long tern relationship with me and also treat me respectfully.
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If it’s been said and I missed it sorry but…
I don’t think the idea of the 5% is ridiculous but for one hour is crazy. If it was for a weekend or week or 2 weeks. Yeah I could get that and it comes off the purchase price that you obviously can’t really negotiate at that point. Negotiation is what makes the world go round.
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@svenjosh
"He wants to charge 5% for home demo. Is this the industry standard? I am not meaning to disparage anyone so not going to name the dealer. I am just trying to see what the standard practice is."
Tossing a question out there in an open forum will yield many responses. That’s what forums are for. And, you received opinions from both consumer’s and dealer’s perspective. Some responded with one-sentence comments. Others drilled down a little deeper. 43 years of experience working as, or for, a Hifi dealer in my case.
I may have missed your system profile, but someone who has the wherewithal to purchase a $12k streamer is probably not connecting it to a Bose Wave Radio. You’ve certainly achieved a level of success that allows you to build a stellar music system and made very good decisions along the way. Congradulations!
I just regret that the guy who took you from 0-60 was not there at the finish line.
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@waytoomuchstuff, I too regret that I am unable to work with my regular dealer. He is not into digital and does not offer much more than basic stuff. Yes he helped me get to where I am right now and I love my system
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