Erik I don't understand why U Gotta HatePass Labs. I purchased a couple of 260.8 Monoblocks and have never been happier! No tube BS my system is far from perfect But I have enjoyed it immensely with dare I say Pass Labs in it. Happy Listening Mark
Don’t hate them at all, and the good Mr. Pass is a great guy.
I am curious why those who love them love them, because face it, when some one turnes into a Passter, they rarely turn back! :) They don’t look for other amps, they look for other Pass amps.
Pass is an ideal situation to learn from. The man himself argues against the perfect amp, and his fans love it. The gear measures differently than other gear.
His fans should continue to love it. I will continue not to, but that difference is exactly where we can learn about what we grow to love about gear.
I am 100% sure that regardless of my feelings or thoughts, Nelson will continue to enjoy enviable economic success, and I wish him that and more.
Eric is on record saying he likes D’agostino amps....
So what makes D’agostinos amps so different from Pass Labs amps?
Read Dan’s quote below, especially the last sentence. It’s pretty much the same philosophy Pass uses. Yet, there’s no hate for D’agostino, no trolling threads, nothing.
If distortion is such a big deal to him, why doesn’t he troll tube amps?
D’Agostino: In Krell’s early days, our amplifiers were really based on sound. I listened to every one. Later on, we became a super-technical company where we [were] really interested in becoming the first to apply new, patented technologies to our amplifiers.
When we started this new company, I really wanted to express my love of music. Because I wanted the Momentum to sound like music, I designed it in a totally different fashion. There’s nothing in the Momentum that I used at Krell. It has higher distortion than what we made for Krell, but it’s made for sound. Oftentimes, something that sounds good doesn’t necessarily measure as well as something that’s made to measure.
Erik the big difference is you go out of your way the start new anti Pass Labs threads, even though you word them in such a way as trying to being objective.
By the same standards, what is wrong with all of you that you hate neutral, low distortion amps?
If you know anything about feedback, you know how technically inept what you just said is. The best amps in the world have little or local only feedback. You need to do more research. Designers like John Curl, Nelson Pass, Dan D’agostino, Gryphon ect ect ect use as little negative feedback as they can, sometimes even only using just local feedback instead of global. This little feedback always sounds better if the design is a solid design to start with, instead of having feedback higher just so the amp can be cleaned up and can then get better advertised THD figures and lower output impedances.
Erik the big difference is you go out of your way the start new anti Pass Labs threads, even though you word them in such a way as trying to being objective.
The person on Audiogon who will die from lack of eating to go out of his way to attack pro Class D amplifier threads would like to slander me by repeating a previously made and never substantiated and very very false accusations.
It’s amazing when some one has zero self awareness.
Hey George, I’m going to go start a thread about Class D amps I like. Do you think that will grab your interest for the end of the year??
Hey Erik, big difference sunshine, unlike you I don't start "hatred threads" that single out a particular manufacturer like you do. I have my generalized negative or positive say on ones that are already being discussed, by other OP's
Marcum01. YOU started a hate thread. This is it! You're trolling a single person. Hilarious. And a bunch of others went along with you. I've been looking through Agon threads for a new amplifier. Looks like back then, back in the old days, people RESPECTED one another perspective on this forum whether or not they agreed with you. You know, 5 years ago....
Marcum01. YOU started a hate thread. This is it! You're trolling a single person. Hilarious. And a bunch of others went along with you. I've been looking through Agon threads for a new amplifier. Looks like back then, back in the old days, people RESPECTED one another perspective on this forum whether or not they agreed with you. You know, 5 years ago....
michaellent I didn't start a hate thread. I simply asked a question period that's it. Nothing of my post was offensive or derogatory. The biggest problem. we have in society now is everyone is a"snowflake"! Everyone is worried about offending each other now. My wife works at a university and that mentality runs rampid there I DETEST VTL but I'm not starting threads about how inferior they are or picking apart everything about them. Happy Listening Mark
No, you don’t start a thread on a member. This is not a snowflake issue, rather it is just plain old fashioned good taste. Just remove his name and make your question more general next time.
It really is sad to see Audiogon forums devolve into such noisy useless banter no different than the comments on, say Yahoo news articles; It is very simple: Don’t let various forms of jealously and envy infect your mind. Peace
Mark, not at all in your post; my comment is directed at the useless negative energy some members direct at bashing others choices. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. We would all do well to take ourselves much less seriously in this otherwise super enjoyable hobby
While D’Agostino may be chosing to make euphonic amps he can’t possibly be doing the same thing Pass is, or making the same exact choices, therefore there’s absolutely no guarantee that anyone should like them equally. I mean, if that were true, then all Pass fans would love D’Agostino too, right?? Or why don’t all of you just give up and agree that CJ Premiere 8s were the best amplifiers ever and you are all just wasting money?? Those were very euphonic amps. My favorite of all times. Why should the CJ 8s sound like Pass or D’Agostinos?
I’m not trolling Pass, anyone who thinks that fails to read my statements fully or understand them. What makes Pass useful to the discussion of personal taste (or really euphonics) is that he’s told us he’s adding a secret sauce, and Stereophile has published pretty extensive data on the distortion profile.
I can’t find anything like that for Dagostino, therefore I can’t sit and look at two sets of charts to figure out why I like one and not the other.
Unfortunately, rather than having discussions about what makes Pass special what we are most discovering is how threatened Pass fans are.
If you truly loved Pass and felt they were the best, a question about why would not perturb you. Instead, the question of what makes Pass special is met mostly (but not all) with what amount to a mix of pro-Pass ads and slander. My thread about why Pass people loved Pass was 90% pure fandom and 10% people willing to post specific comparisons and impressions, of which some were not positive.
One weird thing about Pass owners is they tend to act as if Pass was the only possible amp choice. When they talk about upgrading, it is only to other Pass amps. That's great, but trying to get an objective idea of WHY they like it is curiously difficult.
This is just not a discussion that can be had it seems, and that’s a shame.
Both Pass and D’agostino amps are designed with purpose, and that’s to achieve a certain sound (vs perfect measurements). I’ve already pasted comments above from D’agostino implying this.
Here’s the other side of it from Pass Labs via Hometheatrehifi.
At 20 volts output, the B-A peak is at -42 dB. If I had just looked at the graph, but never heard the amplifier, I would have predicted some audible distortion. But it didn’t occur. Here is the reason. Pass Labs used extremely high quality parts, a massive power supply, and more than 100 output devices. They created the sound by changing a capacitor or resistor here and there, but these were not band aids to fix problems. They were there to create a pleasing sound, one that was similar to a Pure Class A triode power amplifier (50 watts) that they designed beforehand, and decided that they would build the Xs 300 to mimic that sound, but not be deficient in the bass or high frequencies.
This should answer your question what people like about Pass Labs (for the same reason someone would like D’agostino amps).
Hey George, I've read a few of Eriks Non Lovin Pass threads, there are plenty of brands that I don't love. I find Erik constantly trying to come up with threads, I find this helpful with this forum. Alot of education goes on for our members because of those. I don't know of anyone else that goes out of their way to keep new threads up like Erik does, so yes, I occasionally get a bit aggravated with him also, but appreciate his effort that he puts forth in our little group. I certainly would not call myself an Erik fan, but he stirs alot of minds just as much as he aggravates others.
I'm on my third Pass amp, also have a First Watt. Though 3 friends who have had and enjoyed Pass amps have moved on; VAC Integrated, Rowland, Belles...and we all very much like each others systems...
Low to no negative feedback in an amplifier with high pass above 100 HZ is a brutal unfair advantage
And recognizing that the human ear / brain relationship is way more sensitive to various forms and orders of distortion than others.... makes for IMO an astute designer and a more musical amp :-)
Who cares what Erik likes or dislikes. It’s his opinion and should have no bearing on what your ears like. He doesn’t like colored amps. It’s like McIntosh, some love them and some hate them. I find Eriks posts hilarious. He definitely knows how to push buttons. Wonder if he related to my wife.
timlub there are plenty of brands that I don’t love.
Do/would you, go out of your way, to single out and start (quite a few now) degrading threads on a manufacturer you don’t like??, like he does with Pass Labs?
To this date Nelson Pass is one of the heralded and praised audio designers this world has known.
I don’t like the "sound of Mosfets" and his later Mosfet designs (understand, Mosfets are much more bomb/idiot proof). I much prefer his earlier Bi-Polar designs that had far more current available (but can go Chernobyl), but I appreciate totally what he does with the Mosfets.
He’s always used low feedback and sometimes only "local" not "global" feedback in his designs, that’s why he doesn’t get the 0.0001% distortion figures, that "others" get only because of **** loads of feedback around their amps.
distortion figures can teach us some things but not everything (don't forget slew rate, noise floor, current capability, crosstalk, EMI/RF rejection, power supply ripple rejection, etc);
I've had my share of amps with low to super low distortion figures (and in the case of the Benchmark amp significantly!) on the test bench when subjected to single frequency sine waves, and each has a sonic signature; In the final analysis, though, the one that really ought to matter, is: does it sound like the real thing with your system gear? Does it tend to make you want to turn up the volume because you can't wipe the smile off your face and you need more? Does it help you forget that you are listening to electronics? Does it speak to you emotionally? Pass is at least one amplifier manufacturer that has gotten this way right; They are popular for a reason! Pass for President! (ok sorry for that, lol)
Who cares what Erik likes or doesnt like? By responding to his posts you may be giving him much more credence than he deserves. If you anticipate a trollish post then ignore him. Just like the Klipsch fanboys should ignore my Klipsch posts which are almost always negative. This country is turning into a bunch of p*ssies!
For the record I liked my Pass 30.8 and absolutely hated my First Watt. But I do have a few criticisms of the Pass .8 series "house" sound. The only amp design I cant fault, assuming you have the correct speaker load, are OTLs.
I cant imagine what would happen with a few of you if someone gave you something really significant to complain about.
@georgehifi hey George we have agreed in the past about bi-polar trnasistors and the negative feedback. My partner and I have our own product line out and we have been repairing audio components for some time now. A lot of older products especially Counterpoint, Melos, CJ, etc. We have our own stereo hybrid amp coming out soon. We recently just added a little feedback which helps to make the amplifiers more stable with bias. We also gained a little more umph in the bass area bu doing so.
So what does this have to do with this thread, well there are a few Audiogoners who recently have been coming up with thread after thread of to me just nonsense, seemingly to just get others to reply. But overall they have little experience in how audio products work. I find it hard to learn anything from them and especially knowing why things sound the way they do and how they work. I also find reviews a waste of time because they seem limited to the same type of manufactured product. Most do not know why something seemingly sounds better that anther. Ass for Class D amps, I am willing to do comparisons to prove why they sound good but are really nothing that special so far to my ears.
WOW! Apparently I created a dung storm Anyway! On this cold chilly evening I'm enjoying my Pass Labs amplifiers without worrying about negative feedback or global feedback. No just listening and enjoying the music Isn't that what it's all about Agoners? Happy Listening Mark
I also have 260.8's and I love them. They replaced a ML333, a ML23.5 and a Bedini 100/100 before them (still have them all in different systems and can plug and play anytime, but choose not to).
As I have for years tempered the ss sound with a tube pre I have vet to have any of them be a disappointed. Each step up in amps meant a step up in a tube pre. I current mix the Pass with a ARC 5se and it is as dynamic and as musical as I could want. My speakers are a not exactly main stream but they mate very well with the equipment I am running, which is very fortunate as I have no upgrade fever for speakers.
There might there be better out there, perhaps, but this hobby is for personal satisfaction only, what everyone else think does not even move the needle for me.
For a hobby that craves pure sound , this place produces a lot of noise. Be nice if there were more facts to be shared , rather than strongly arguing opinion.
To the couple Eric lovers, you must be blind, just look at his history of starting anti Pass Labs threads.
George:
This is slander, as others have replied to you, my Pass threads were quite neutral and I took no position other than to ask questions and get specific insight. Your brown stained glasses are the only reason you see this.
Please also point out a single place where I’ve told some one their hearing was wrong. Your practice of telling those who like certain amplifiers or types of amplifiers that their hearing must be off, or that measurements matter more than personal taste is a profound lack of respect for others and no one should take you seriously after that.
Point me to a single post where I’ve told someone that buying Pass was a mistake, or that their products were inadequate in their manufacture or design. Those posts don’t exist. .
To others: You are right, what I like or don’t doesn’t really matter. Don’t reply to what you aren’t interested in. What I am interested in is secret sauces and whether we can measure them. Because that is fun.
Pass said he’s adding distortion to his products. Stereophile just measured it. I think that’s cool to dissect. If you get all butt hurt over that I don’t know what to tell you. Pass is one of the most successful audio product makers in history, if he says he's got a secret sauce and you think he's onto something you should be incredibly curious as to what it is and how it measures.
You have been all pouty for weeks because I gave you free advice that you didn’t take and wasn’t a direct answer to your original post. You just completely ignored a poster asking for help with an AVR and spewed your own biases.
No one on audiogon stalks me like you do, so you better pay me for the attention you are getting.
This is slander, as others have replied to you, my Pass threads were quite neutral and I took no position other than to ask questions and get specific insight. Your brown stained glasses are the only reason you see this.
Sorry fact Eric, as many others have said before me, you must be immune to the comments or something if you think you are "quite neutral" to Nelson Pass.
You start threads and posts on Pass Labs amps and you cherry pick what "only you think" are the faults, to "try" to imply there is something inherently wrong with the Pass design.
He is one of the messiah’s of modern day audio, you have not even a minute piece of technical knowledge/info, that could counter what he has to offer the audio world.
Some say Nelson Pass must have shun you at a show once or something for you to have this kind of negativity against him and his amps.
I think maybe it’s his comments about your beloved Class-D amps that haunts you so much.
Nelson Pass (Threshold, Passlabs) on Class-D "Does a $10 bottle of wine compete with a $100 bottle? Of course it does, and it often wins based on price. Right at the moment Class D designers seem to be still focusing on the objectively measured performance of their amplifiers. I expect that at some point the economics of the marketplace will encourage them to pay more attention to the subjective qualities, and then they will probably play a greater role in the high end."
What ever it is, leave Nelson Pass alone, stop starting negative threads on his designs and no one will jump on you then.
*phew* Another tempest in a teacup forum.....rub some's fur the wrong way, and the static turns into a thunderstorm yielding a flood...
(A statement: I have no particular opinion, pro or con, re Pass amps. IMHO, they have no more appeal nor dislike than any other product; as usual, at least in my universe. It's another Preference. Just like Ford vs. Dodge, or anything else that has a competitor.)
Up to this moment....the response I see 'above' this post reminds me of the dung-storm (love that comment, btw...) that Muslims have re Any depictions of Mohammed and/or Allah....
"OMG! Sacrilege! We must destroy the Infidel that Dares to inflict True Believers with this....this....this Hersey!"
Chill out...
It's not like the man broke into your house, dragged your beloved amp into the front yard, urinated on it, doused it with the collected dog dung and gasoline, and lit it.
I can see the 10PM news (or the SNL 'send-up') now...
"Fringe Audiophiles Go Ballistic; Tolerant Neighbors Go Bemused"
As I have said before I don’t like the sound of his later "Mosfet Amps", I much prefer his earlier "Bi-polar designs", but I don’t do what Eric is doing, by going out of his way to start threads belittling NP designs without knowing **** about design himself.
"The biggest problem. we have in society now is everyone is a"snowflake"! Everyone is worried about offending each other now. My wife works at a university and that mentality runs ramped "
Isn't this kinda the basis for your post? You where offended...
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