Equal $$ for Phono OR Streaming?

@kennyc : I know lots of people who claim otherwise. These are people who understand that from a scientific standpoint, digital is indisputably technically superior to analog. From dynamic range, which has the capability of being 10 times higher than LPs, to rumble, to wow, to channel separation capability, to low frequency, to degradation, not to mention storage, cost and lack of convenience. Whether it sounds better is subjective and/or depends on the recording process. I grew up with vinyl and spent my first decade of audiophilia with it, but I’d never go back to all the snap, crackle, pop and hiss. I gave away hundreds of LPs 30 years ago and never looked back (until I found 50 more in a box in the basement recently that I’m going to sell).

Get yourself a Cary Audio DMS600 or DMS700
DAC Streamer that does both TIDAL & Qobuz and you are done. End of story and enjoy the incredible sound 

@jpwarren58  No worries. He's too busy and I'm the one much more into this hobby, but he cares about sound. Just cannot invest the time in the details and he trusts me -- and I trust the best opinions on this forum. All good. And thanks for your judgment.

Age plays a role for sure in this game. As someone mentioned analog requires a certain level of commitment and mechanical aptitude. IMHO that budget slants digital. 6000 will buy an above average digital system. It will only purchase an average TT setup. My apologies for the "friend". Internet cynicism.

@jjss49  Thanks for experience with P.S. Audio. For $6k, new, I think my friend would rather get both streamer and DAC without needing addition hardware, software, or other complications. Pass on this product.

@jpwarren58 My friend is almost 50 and has a background as a music major who became a neuropsychologist. Why do "you" ask? Does age have a bearing on the sonic quality (perhaps because of hearing loss?)

@kennyc  Thanks for your answer.

@hilde45
If you are ONLY considering "sonic quality" as consideration, then Analog is the better choice.  Many audiophiles say that analog is sonically superior to digital, rarely any say it is the other way around.

Digital offers much cheaper media, seemingly endless available content that's easily obtainable, cross referencing metadata for in-depth analysis.  If your friend is interested in exploring music, he should eventually include digital.  I have both. 

You can play the same song 10 times in a row employing a digital system without leaving your chair. I am about 95% shifted away from my 40 year old TT. Sort of like going to different bedrooms. Miss her for about 5 minutes each night, then I don't. How old is your "friend"?

the ps directstream can be equipped with an optional plug in module called a bridge which allows it to receive streamed signal via ethernet and wifi

i tried this unit and found it good but not great, esp in light of its cost of ~4k used w bridge

there is much discussion among users about the sound of these units varying a good bit based on which version of the custom decoding software done by their digital guru ted smith is installed on the fpga... gets somewhat complicated and confusing too

Recent posters, the general life advice is appreciated, but he really wants an answer to the question as posed to make his decision. If you don't think it's answerable as posed, he'd appreciate knowing why.

That's like asking if you want to collect Model Ts or Hellcats. If he likes nostalgia and rituals, get the Model T (TT). If he likes performance and convenience, get the Hellcat (stream). And there's no need to buy a dedicated streamer unless you want instant on. Ones and zeroes won't know the difference. My "streamers" (a laptop and an Echo Dot) cost $149 and $20 respectively.

I believe his record collection should be the determining factor.  If he just has a few, why bother?  If like me, he does not really care for the streaming algorhithms, go with the phono, and listen to the music he spent a lifetime collecting.

The vinyl would sound better on a better recording but it is all about the recording quality and usually the digital version will only be better than vinyl when you spend enough money on digital there are tradeoffs to both though.

@speakermaster  
Interesting. Do you have an opinion on the question of which in that price range would sound better?

I would go with phono because it involves the listener so much more than using a streamer or a computer to access your music and you have so much fun looking for vinyl at different places.

The ps audio unit is $6k. Is it a DAC only or does it include a streamer? The top of the price range is $6k, so this is a make or break question relating to that suggestion. Thanks.

+1 for a PS Audio Directstream
or LUMIN w/ Dac the T2. Mytek brooklyn bridge 2 will soon be out and roon is in the box. Dac chip very good. Hymn.

I love vinyl but left it. I can’t hear any difference (others can) and have opted for an intergrated amp and a streamer with a built in dac. KISS.

@millercarbon may be right on his recommendation but most stellar vinyl setups are far more expensive.

Now for the cost of one record you can get two months of streaming, no records to clean and from an iPad Pandora’s box is amazing.

@jperry

Your system is very elegant, a perfect marriage of analog and digital. One of my favorite system’s on Agon 😊

@hilde45 

Thanks for your comment. Take a look at my system and it will give you additional context for my comments. As you will see I am primarily analog focused in my system, with the digital streaming a new addition. I tried digital streaming a couple of times before with no real success in terms of sound quality or user friendly solutions.

The current solution is very user friendly, glitch free, and easy to operate. The sound quality is pretty good as well.

Best Regards,

Jim Perry

@jperry  Thanks for your comments and I'm glad for the vibe in this thread. Your suggestion for my friend resonates for me, and I'm glad he'll have your comment along with the others to help him with his inquiry.

Great post @jjss49. 

A high quality streamer is a transactional decision, a high quality vinyl playback system is a commitment.  

If your friend is willing to make the commitment to vinyl, then his efforts will be rewarded, otherwise, a streamer is an excellent option.  

Thanks for posting this thread. Very interesting and the discussion has thankfully remained civil, which is very refreshing. I have a few thoughts which I wanted to share.

I have digital front end components (not including cables) right in the price range where your friend is shopping. My system is posted, and I am using an Innuos music server with a Line Magnetic DAC. The sound quality is very good, although not nearly as good as my analog front end, which is much more expensive. I have heard a digital front end competitive with my analog front end, but it was more than twice as expensive as my analog front end. I have not recently heard an analog setup in the price range where your friend is shopping.

If I were a first time buyer, and my price range was the same as your friends, I might go digital. The reasons for that decision are: 1) Easy access to a lot of music via streaming 2) Ease of setup if he uses something similar what I have with only two boxes and Roon 3) No storage needed for physical media 4) Overall investment will be less due to media purchases.

@jjss49

streamed music (using proper tidal, qobuz or other suitable lossless service) is absolutely able to deliver music at a superb quality into a well chosen downstream system ... to a point where the emotion-stirring nature of well recorded content will come through to thrill and move the listener

there is no doubt in my mind this is the case with presently available gear, and at quite a reasonable cost

I absolutely agree for my own ears and sonic tastes. I’m 56 and I grew up with turntables, and I’ve listened to them through the early 2000s. I’ve heard great ones. The comments by the analog-is-the-only-way people make me very curious to see what I may have overlooked (about what I’m able to discern) but the overall phono-path is too burdensome for me.

That said, the system I’ve built over the past year has transfixed me at times; I get completely lost in the music, hear tremendous things, and don’t find myself with a "grass is always greener" bugaboo gnawing at me in my listening position. I heeded advice about getting an R2R DAC and while I’m curious about how "lowly" my Node 2i is, I do recognize the warnings about how quickly streaming technology (in contrast to DACs) is evolving. If there is one thing which shows me I’m not "done" with digital, is the occasional DSD files I’ve heard. In a few years, after I’ve dialed in my room or settled into a new one, a much better streamer (and DAC, possibly) is on the short list, but until the room’s impact is addressed, it’s not my priority. My friend may very well read some of the more economical suggestions here and decide that savings should not be spent on trying to do *both* digital and analog, and should instead go toward the room.

@hilde45

one additional, central point i would make (in reply to some other comments in this nice thread you have started) is that since i decided to tackle streaming this time last year since covid started, i very much believe that streamed music (using proper tidal, qobuz or other suitable lossless service) is absolutely able to deliver music at a superb quality into a well chosen downstream system ... to a point where the emotion-stirring nature of well recorded content will come through to thrill and move the listener

there is no doubt in my mind this is the case with presently available gear, and at quite a reasonable cost - in fact, a blue sound node 2i feeding an ayre codex or mhdt istanbul or a schiit gumby will do ’the trick’ (~$1500)

turntables are NOT needed to achieve the above - though one can argue the best tt’s may do it a touch better -- just as top-tier cd players have also been able to produce the desired goods for years now...

those who deny the above are either hopelessly stuck in their ways, can't see past what they have personally invested in in this hobby, and/or haven't tried streaming or done it properly

@sbank I have discussed these various user experience factors with my friend and he has  an equal appetite for either way of listening to music. What he would like to know is whether he should spend his money on digital or analog in the four to $6000 range. The rest of it will follow and he is open to it and he is going into it with his eyes wide open. Thank you for the your nice comment about the thread.

Let’s look at this logically, the amount you are willing to spend on either idea should be the answer to the question.  If you have good speakers and a good amplifier you will only get good sound. (Not Great) I was in the same position and chose to go with a NAD streaming amp with a built in DAC.  Even with a great turntable which would cost so much more than you want to spend, you will still only get the sound reproduction equal to the rest of your equipment.  Streaming will give you good audio reproduction and so much more music to choose from at a monthly cost which would be less than the cost on one album.  Probably with at least equal sound. I think streaming is the future of audio for the masses. Once you reach a point where you can spend whatever you want, you decision might change.  My ears are not that great and my system sounds as good as I can hear.  Total cost for everything $20,000.

The most entertaining thread I've read in a while! Lots of great points and specific recommendations have been made. So let's talk about UX.

User experience preferences should be greatly taken into consideration. Much has made of the downsides to vinyl, like cleaning records. I don't mind spending an hour or two cleaning a pile of LPs, slipping them into a nice new sleeve and knowing they'll be clean basically for eternity. Other loath the core, don't do it, and then complain about "clicks & pops" as if they are inevitable. They aren't.

Does ownership of a collection matter to you? ...full size art and liner notes? The whole millennial vinyl craze seems often as much about the physical experience of playing/owning/displaying records as the sound quality. 

On the other hand, are you a playlist junkie? If so, digital is clearly your friend, not much debate there...70s mixed tapes notwithstanding, ha. 

Flipping albums, especially with audiophile 45s just isn't for everybody. Some love the required focus and get more out of the music, while others would rather play a song, turn on Roon Radio and let it go for hours at a time.  Side-note: gotta admit that adding a tonearm lifter is something I'm glad I did, and can be a real stress reducer at times.

On the digital side, how tolerant are you of software bugs, Apple & Windows updates breaking things, and buggy wifi/internet connections? Recently I spun about 5 albums while holding & talking with AT&T internet and Eero tech support teams over issues affecting my audio streaming...irony! 

Which tragedy hits home: the friend whose basement flood ruined a rack of album covers or the friend whose hard drives crashed and he lost all his hirez downloads? 

Does post-pandemic record shop & garage sale browsing sound like fun or a chore? I am always energized by a couple of hours LP-hunting!

OP, it's worth asking your friend about these considerations to get a sense of their mindset, habits and that may point you to the right side of the fence. Then get down to specific gear. 

Personally, I'm put a small amount into a Raspberry Pi, Intel NUC running Roon and a cheap decent dac like SMSL or Schiit and invest the other 80-90% into analog. Agree with comments about digital depreciation. This route would allow a change w/o huge loss down the road if he'd rather go all in on the digital side.

Cheers,
Spencer



 

Yup.

Sometimes being a copy cat is the smart course of action. Especially when copying someone you know and trust, not just some guy posting opinions about what sounds best (likely things that you have never even heard) on a website that is there mainly to sell things.

Many of those same guys would likely also tell you themselves (in other contexts) that you can’t know how something sounds until you actually here it.

Who wouldn’t like to have things both ways if permitted?

Well, I like the idea of owning both sources. Streaming works well for no fuss music and to discover those LPs or CDs one wants to own. 

With 6K one could purchase a  Streamer/DAC combination like the one Hide45 owns, and his friend heard, and have ~$4000 for a TT system, when in a more hobby focus mode, enjoying a music session. 

If the TT becomes the primary requiring greater cost, then just purchase the Bluesound Node 2i and use it's internal DAC for music discovery. Improvements could be made with an external DAC at a later date.

@jjss49 Your point is well taken and the effort required for phono needs to be seriously sized up, as you say. 

It’s subjective enough that chances are no two people will agree on what is best at any cost.   That is why dealers sell different product options.  
I can offer an opinion as easily as the next guy on what is best but  it’s only an opinion.    Plenty of those out there to choose from.  
But the sound of you system that is the model for what is desired is not subjective. Your friend knows he likes that.  So best to just follow that model. 

@hilde45

as you know, when it is about ’sound quality’ of various choices in high end hifi, it is a subjective question for each person and their sensibilities -- for anyone who really cares about it there is simply no substitute for personal experience and extensive audition, in your own surroundings

that been said, unless this friend of yours has prior experience with higher end analog (doesn’t sound like it), he also needs to understand there is a substantial learning curve to the endeavor of getting a tt/arm/cart/phono stage setup working really well... much much more involved than streamer/ethernet/cable/dac plug n play pretty much - for many of us on this board, at this stage of our lives we arguably have more money than time and energy, and i always tell someone who is about to embark on ’doing a record player right’ that they need to be really ’into it’, need to have patience, perseverance, a ’tinkerer’s mentality’, a level of fine motor skills, and a decent size wallet -- to get to a point where one can really extract and appreciate what the format can offer

to some this is a good thing, to many others, it is a deterrent

@feldmen4  Glad you liked the description. Not only do I see this in my kids, I see it competing within me. Warring impulses -- slow vs. quick. I have a Node 2i. Because I'm on the verge on spending on room treatment stuff, I'm a bit shy about upgrading but I've taken note of your experience!

@mapman  Sonic quality is somewhat subjective but not totally, right? I mean, if you did a poll asking people if they liked articulate bass vs. boomy/fuzzy bass, or blurry, narrow sound stage vs. clear and wide sound stage, etc. we'd see huge majorities voting for the same thing. We share biological and cultural habits (growing up together, interacting, social) so subjectivity is always there but it's typically much less dramatic than supposed.

@hilde45 - Great summary of the conversation. Very interesting take on how those of us of a certain age learned to listen differently because of the circumstances. Never heard it described in those terms but couldn’t agree more based on my experiences and what I see with my boys. 
I will put in a quick plug for my Mytek Manhattan II DAC w/ network card. List is a little over $6k - I got mine last April for ~$5.5K but not sure if such a deal is still available. Orders of magnitude better than the Node 2 I was using. 
Matt

Sonic quality is a totally subjective thing. That budget buys you a lot of it whichever way you slice it. Many good choices.
Practically, If he does not know what to do but likes your sound then he should shoot to emulate that.

Lots more good replies. Thank you. Many here want to help him with the decision, overall, but because he's indicated a willingness to go in either direction (knowing full well what that implies) the core question -- about the sonic quality achievable with *either* $4-6k for streaming/dac vs. phono -- really is *the* question. And yes, other "requirements" are helpful to know, but it does not seem like the core question is unanswerable without the bigger picture, and many here seem to agree.

I don’t stream, I play CDs via a Mojo Audio EVO DAC and SimAudio 260D CD Transport in my main system, and a Modwright Elyse DAC and Cambridge Audio CXC Transport in my second system ; also use an IPOD Classic with WAV files via a Wadia 171i Transport in both . The narrative that you can’t sit back and be engaged in the music if it is digital sourced is just an opinion that some have, nothing more. Do I like vinyl , yes I have a phono preamp and ClearAudio rig which sit idle; the problem for me is the lack of available vinyl for the music genre and artists that I listen to mostly. That said, I’m not missing the enjoyment of the music , my digital gear doesn’t come up short.Your friend’s musical enjoyment will not be compromised if he chooses a digital format and good equipment; it isn’t simply there for background music

@ hilde45I've been watching this thread with some amusement. Being in software for almost 40 years (Cripes I'm old!) I can tell you that unless one has complete requirements, including details on what the current environment is, ANY solution will be less than optimal. Audio is no different IMHO... People, as usual, are making all sorts of specific favored equipment referrals not knowing what amp and speakers your friend has! (I looked, did I miss that somewhere?) So I will necessarily speak in general terms.
Unless your friend has inherited some over the top equipment, I would think that for $4-6Kilobucks they could actually get BOTH a nice analog and digital front end. Some folks HAVE been asking the right questions: Would he go in for the gestalt that is vinyl? Would he want to collect LPs and fiddle about with a turntable? Or do you think he'd prefer the convenience and flexibility of a digital source? Or does he only want to do one type?
One thing is certain that the $4-6K budget would seem to be quite fortunate for your friend. The trick would be to maximize it to make the right choices.
Happy listening.

Sounds like your buddy is just starting out as he has no vinyl or CDs.

Streaming done right can sound excellent.  So, my vote goes to a
Bryston BDA-3.14  Streamer DAC.  List is about $4k.
The Bryston will play PCM up to 384K as well as DSD4.  
Stereophile Class A DAC (same DAC as BDA-3).

Add some cables and power cords and you're rollin'.

As others have said its a personal choice he has to make.

Regards,
barts 

As someone who streams, plays CDs and LPs (I also have a cassette deck but don't use it much), I have periods where I listen to each exclusively for a while and then switch to the other when the mood strikes.  Agree with the idea that your friend can do both, and both formats have their converts, but I would also agree that if he's not into analog right now there's no sense in spending all of that on vinyl gear, because it's definitely more labor intensive and tweak-centric than a DAC and streamer are, and you can easily blow through $6k on a turntable/preamp/cartridge/cables with little effort and feel like you didn't get the very best you could.  No one here can say which format your friend will prefer, but having $4-$6k to spend between the two is an awesome amount.  I find streaming very convenient as I can bring up my old favorites and endlessly sample new music (as well as listening to internet radio from stations all over the globe), but there's something very familiar about spinning a record when I'm in the mood, and it has nothing to do with sound quality.

Thanks for the input, all. I will pass it along.

Amazing diversity of opinion. I will share this whole thread with him so he can learn. Thank you!

Analog fans such as @millercarbon say analog "is off the charts" better and @robertbrook says that digital is for people listening at lower volumes or not really paying attention; if you the music gets the attention and volume level characteristic of (his phrase) a "true audiophile," analog is a necessity. Several here list ways to do analog well within the price parameters.

Others, including long time vinyl fans, see digital as better, just as good, or nearly as good, especially with the price constraints. E.g., @jrw1971 estimates at least $10-15k for analogy to beat great Dacs. (I also haven’t started the Wire. But I know, I know: probably the best show, really, ever!) Several see digital catching up in the next few years.

A bunch of great ideas in the "both category." @jjss49’s amazing setups pose a serious challenge, as they contain excellent gear within the limits described (closer to $6k). He doesn’t weigh in on which is sonically better, but he calls digital "excellent" so that seems to imply that it’s at least close enough.

As @feldmen4 (Matt) points out, the limits of the question are hard to abide, as many point out the additional costs to analog are magnitudes greater (for content acquisition, primarily) and I like guy-incognito’s description that a vinyl collection can become a "walled garden." In some ways, I attribute my own ability to listen to music in a focused and deep way to the limits placed on me by by record collection growing up -- hard to get new albums, as a kid (expense, someone had to drive me to a store, I didn’t even know what was available until I got to the store). As a result, I listened over and over to what I had and learned to listen in a way different than many do now, with the ability to skip from tune or artist to artist. That said, if I was growing up today, I don’t think I’d be able to stand being walled in that way. Once you’ve travelled...

P.S. A third option is CD’s, which as the Audiophilac points out, can sound quite amazing with a good DAC and transport and CD’s are often very very inexpensive. I suppose CD’s don’t compete, sonically, for most here advocating streaming, but my guess is that a great transport/DAC combo is very easily available for well under $6k.

As others have noted, that is a decent budget.  He should be able to get both decent analog and digital.  If after a few years he develops a clear preference for one over the other, he can upgrade, but even if he doesn’t he should have decent enough equipment for a lifetime of enjoyment 

My Bricasti M5 streamer with ENO filter on the Ethernet input, way outperforms my MoFi UltraDeck, which now never gets used.

R-pi plus Allo hat for £150. Khadas DAC for £90. Roon plus Qobuz for £25 a month. Less without Roon if you can bear it. 

If you have a lot of vinyl already, spending on a good phono preamp is wise.

Otherwise, the future is digital, spend it on a good streamer.

Really good topic. Both my vinyl and digital set ups are right at the upper end of that $ ballpark. I know you’ve asked us to separate initial component costs from enduring software / accessory costs but when you include a cost ceiling it’s sort of disingenuous (maybe that’s too strong a word) to tell us to make that separation when the ramifications (e.g. future costs) are so so significantly different. Honestly, I love listening to both my rigs - to have $4-6 K to spend on either option is a luxury I’m glad he has.

Matt

If he isn't sure if he should go vinyl or streaming he should probably go with the streamer. I am a vinyl guy but also have a streaming rig. I prefer vinyl and have put more funds into my vinyl rig. That siad, I would agree it is more expensive comparatively. Also, your vinyl collection effectively becomes a walled garden. I can't imagine not having both options at this point. $4k to $6k would buy a very nice streamer and DAC or an all in one unit. If he is having trouble deciding then I say get rolling with a streaming rig and do some long term research to piece together a solid vinyl rig over time if he still has the interest after the streamer. 

$6K on analog is a HUGE, HUGE amount for me!!

 I spent $70 on a vintage table which I refurbished. I spent $270 on a package of 26 vintage cartridges. After research, I spent $200 on styli for the best cartridges of the lot. 

I have a very nice 1980 integrated with MM and MC phono pre’s.

Thats about $600 on a very competent phono setup. No one “needs” a RCM! Records can be expertly cleaned in any kitchen sink for 5 minutes and a penny each. Great records can be had at thrift stores and online. 

I would consider $1K extravagant for a very, very good phono system. 

Computer dependent race. God help us all.