Ever since I discovered the magic of SETs, I have been hooked and could never go back to “sand amps” or non SET tube amps. (Yes, I know they are dirty and colored but I love the soft clipping!) The seemingly endless problem has been finding speakers that not only function well with just a few watts of power but get the most out of the limited power and also sound real. Tried Lowthers in Medallion enclosures and some other enclosures but ultimately not very natural or satisfying. Realized that a two way speaker properly crossed over to a tweeter was best and found a speaker that was specifically designed to play with 8 300B watts. The Tetra 506s (worth checking out Tetraloudspeakers.com and the great musicians who use them!). Does anyone know other two way speakers designed to work well with SETs?
I, mostly, disagree with this statement. Regarding amp/speaker,
one cannot say that a high powered amp is not designed to supply the
juice needed for high sound output. And that a large speaker system is
not designed similarly? Another point is that I do believe,
especially limiting the low frequency output of my 90db flat 8 ohm Tetra
506s with a good Rel sub gives me "the most" out of speakers. Taken
into consideration that the voicing of the speakers was with 8 watts of
300B. I do understand that a 100db+ speaker is an entirely different
story from a physical/tech perspective. Surely, an Ocellia is not a
"Rock and Roll" speaker and is more suited to the dynamics of Jazz. Is
it not greatly contingent on a speaker's physicality? Just a personal
note to you, maybe 30+ years ago I called you thinking of buying one of
your amps to power my Quad 57s. You graciously turned me away saying
that my then Bedini 15/15 was a great amp for the 57s. A quite belated
thanks!
@mglik At the time I was under the impression that the old Quads were a too variable load for our amps. Boy did that turn out to be wrong! One of my employees had the 57s and it turned out they worked great with our amps- as long as you were careful to not overpower the speaker.
Your opening comment in the quote above doesn't seem to address my comment- which was only that its impossible to build a high fidelity component to favor a certain genre. What makes a component good at one genre will make it good for another- whether that is classical, jazz, rock, metal or ethnic folk.
While the Tetra may have been 'voiced' on an SET (whatever that means) the simple fact is that even with a sub, unless you are in a smaller room 8 watts would not be enough power. If that's what you are running, you might want to try a more powerful tube amp- perhaps a push-pull amp with about 30-60 watts, since the speaker appears very tube-friendly. You may find they wake up in a good way you did not expect!
Check out Contrast Audio (sold through highend-electronics). I had a pair of their bookshelf speakers with a 10-watt amp, and they were excellent. I would go with a floor standing model, as the bookshelf model didn't have enough bass, despite their specs.
FWIW its impossible to design any hifi audio product to favor a certain genre of music.
Hey Ralph! Thanks for your input. I certainly respect your decades of a business significantly focused on all things audio and, significantly, matching amp with speaker. I understand that there are many technical factors matching components and speakers beyond sensitivity and impedance. My technical knowledge is limited to common sense and my ears. I, mostly, disagree with this statement. Regarding amp/speaker, one cannot say that a high powered amp is not designed to supply the juice needed for high sound output. And that a large speaker system is not designed similarly? Another point is that I do believe, especially limiting the low frequency output of my 90db flat 8 ohm Tetra 506s with a good Rel sub gives me "the most" out of speakers. Taken into consideration that the voicing of the speakers was with 8 watts of 300B. I do understand that a 100db+ speaker is an entirely different story from a physical/tech perspective. Surely, an Ocellia is not a "Rock and Roll" speaker and is more suited to the dynamics of Jazz. Is it not greatly contingent on a speaker's physicality? Just a personal note to you, maybe 30+ years ago I called you thinking of buying one of your amps to power my Quad 57s. You graciously turned me away saying that my then Bedini 15/15 was a great amp for the 57s. A quite belated thanks!
The Charney Voxativ speakers are very interesting. Looks like the cheapest way to get into the fabulous Voxativs!
Yes the Charney’s are cost effective versus the Voxativ offerings. Here's a little secret Charney sounds way better at 1/3 the cost! I had the opportunity to listen to the Charney Companion with Voxativ AF2.6 drivers against the Ampeggio. No contest! The Companion bettered the Ampeggio in every area!
If you can swing it and your room is large enough the AC2.6 is the way to go. The 8” driver will give you more all the way around.
I had some experience with PHY drivers. The Ocellia speaker uses them
and is very sensitive but not dynamic enough. Audio Note UK are an
industry standard for decades but their output is also somewhat limited.
The Ocellia and AN seem good for classical and Jazz.
@mglik FWIW its impossible to design any hifi audio product to favor a certain genre of music. We did have a pair of Ocellias here and I personally found them to be way too colored due to cabinet resonance. However the drivers themselves are quite good and as dynamic as any high efficiency 'full range' drivers.
There’s also a somewhat hidden corollary, here, which is that I ended up
multiplying my error by saddling a low power / high output impedance
amplifier with a 12” or 15” woofer.
@jim_hodgson If the speaker is designed to work with amps of high output impedance then no worries driving larger speaker cones at all. IMO that is one of the bigger myths around SETs and large cone speakers. Our amplifiers have similar output impedance to SETs, and have no worries with the dual 15" woofers in the Classic Audio Loudspeakers (which are 97dB). The impedance usually plays a far bigger role!
If you're so dead set on running an SET amp, then the only real answer is the K-horn.
I would regard this as inaccurate to say the least. JBL made many speakers, amongst them the Hartsfield, which have similar efficiency. The Hartsfields were designed for corner operation (although the reproductions made by Classic Audio Loudspeakers seem to work quite well when not placed in corners). When I was in college I had a set of Altec corner horns; there are also things like the AvantGardes and many others in high end audio. But it is this kind of efficiency (+100dB) that you really want to be looking for if you want the most out of an SET. You're not going to get there with higher powered SETs as the demands of the output transformer design are prodigious; the price you pay for increased power is reduced bandwidth, to the point where in most cases the term 'hifi' can't be used.
I toally back up
rickraymond59. My Zu Soul Superflys really sing when running off a SET amp As do my Klipschorns. As do my KEF Transmission Lines but you’ll struggle to find a pair of them as they were home built. I would think any Zu would work fine as would any vintage Klipsch.
I agree with the high efficiency speakers. I have a custom pair for my family room setup, which are driven by a 45/46 SET amp. (Both are designed by Don Allen.)
Thanks for the additional recommendations! The Klipschorns are the first high efficiency speaker I ever heard. Klipsch speakers are not my cup of tea. Pretty bright. A lot of people swear by Zu speakers. I only heard them once in an Audio industry friend’s house with his super expensive 2A3 amp and like digital front end. I wanted to run out of that room. Hard to imagine a higher end set up or a higher level industry guy. But I don’t want to rule out Zu speakers. It is just that their sound did not sit well. Surprised that no one mentioned Avant-garde. Over my price but the latest ones seem amazing. Even though MP4, the best YouTube I have heard in titled “Garrard 301 vs Studer”. A super system with AG second from the top pushed by a Nagra 300B. The Charney Voxativ speakers are very interesting. Looks like the cheapest way to get into the fabulous Voxativs! I have found that dB sensitivities are not nearly as important as the impedance curve. My Tetra 506s are 90dB but only dip down to 6 ohms staying mostly at a flat 8 ohms. And they were designed and voiced with 8 watts of 300B. Mine run very clear and unstressed. I do imagine that they might put out more sound with more power but at my listening levels I hear a lot of information. Do feel I am hearing the unstressed character of the speakers. And I have realized, more than anything, that the character of the speaker is most vital. Assuming the right amp match, a speaker’s voice must be “digestible and delicious”. Is it perfect, who cares!
I’m using an Audion 300b 8 watt SET with Zu audio Soul Superfly’s and rarely need to turn the volume past 9 o’clock. The Zu’s are very efficient and have great dynamics and imaging. Very happy with this setup. It was quite a big step up from the Decware Torri Jr with Errx speakers I had previously.
The Klipsch Reference Premiere line of loudspeakers are an excellent, low cost option. Pi Speakers offers various high efficiency speaker kits that are also an excellent, low cost option.
With a 10k budget you should consider the Charney Audio Companion with Voxativ drivers. Charney is located in Somerset central NJ. If your close by contact Charney for a demo. Well worth it. http://charneyaudio.com
I have used more SET and 300b type amplifiers than I can count with SET front horn systems give the best results. I also built 100s of full-range driver systems most designed for SET load these can work well. But the front horn systems designed for SET use can give you all the best of SET while you get few to none of the limitations. A good SET on large front horns is a system you can use for life and not feel like your sound is obsoleted you will not tire of it and feel the need for constant change. These systems can be played for many hours and they will not cause fatigue like conventional systems tend to do. Sure the extremely high SPL a 300b SET on a front horn system can generate could overload your ears and room but that is because you are approaching SPL that not even the highest power audiophile dynamic loudspeaker designs can achieve no matter the amount of power you fed them. SET+ horns is a get off the merry go round of audio purchasing system something that just lets you enjoy music and life.
The most efficient loudspeaker I know of is the Klipschorn corner horn. It's the only loudspeaker that will truly play at level for an SET amp. You can find them used for $6000 and less. New they retail for about $15,000. Cosmetics have a big effect on the sale price. If you're OK with something that hasn't been treated well, you can find them at a substantial discount.
You'll need a room with opposing corners because they only work properly when pushed into a corner. They use the walls as part of the bass horn.
If you're so dead set on running an SET amp, then the only real answer is the K-horn. I think it's the tail wagging the dog, but if you have to run an SET amp, then this is where it leads.
The experience that I can share—and that hopefully will be of some benefit to others—concerns just how sensitive a speaker should be in order to capture what @mglik calls “SET magic.” I repeated the same mistake multiple times (meaning with multiple speakers) over roughly 15 years—clinging to the belief that a speaker with a sensitivity rating in the low/mid-90s was plenty “SET friendly.” I didn’t realize how wrong—practically and conceptually—my belief was until I started experimenting in the high-90s. Then low-100s. And now approaching 110 with my current system (which is a multi-amped 5-way with single-ended amplifiers driving 4 of those channels).
Ultimately, the mistake I kept making was having no appreciation for what @atmasphere pointed out above: this amplifier topology shines when it’s not stressed, and the “20-25% of full power” figure sounds right. On the flip side, @mglik described some telltale sounds of an over-burdened SET amp: “dirty,” “colored,” “soft clipping.” I don’t think it has to be that way.
There’s also a somewhat hidden corollary, here, which is that I ended up multiplying my error by saddling a low power / high output impedance amplifier with a 12” or 15” woofer. The SET amplifiers with DHT output stages with which I’m familiar haven’t been powerful enough or “grippy” enough for this duty ... and that has led to anemic bass. Outside of some highly-specialized single-ended designs, the benefits of push-pull topology shouldn’t be overlooked, here.
One thing that might be beneficial is to get to know (but not necessarily acquire—restrain yourselves) some classic speakers from the era. (WE and Altec for starters.) These were, quite literally, “speakers designed to work well with SETs.” Open-minded listeners tend to come away from this kind of experience with a first-hand appreciation of the possibilities—and a very firm resolve to figure out how to capture some of “that sound” without inviting an albatross into the living room.
With that, I don’t mean to imply that there are no valid recommendations earlier in the thread. There may be—but I personally struggle to connect with this stuff absent any context. Listening space (a bedroom? a barn?) is super-relevant, here ... as is potential for a powered subwoofer, upstream component specs, listening habits and preferences, etc. For whatever reason, single-digit WPC and a mere handful or two of parts seem to place an increased premium on excellent overall system matching.
Some great recommendations! Thanks. I would have never thought of Golden Ear. Wow. Sandy has developed them for years and they sure are popular. Only problem is that my wife would kill me (low WAF!). My budget is around $10K and my room is medium size. Trenner and Friedl is super interesting. They are really beautiful and have been well received. Love the Austrian history of music and looks like that sensitivity is applied to the T&F speakers. I had some experience with PHY drivers. The Ocellia speaker uses them and is very sensitive but not dynamic enough. Audio Note UK are an industry standard for decades but their output is also somewhat limited. The Ocellia and AN seem good for classical and Jazz. I really like Louis at Omega. And his speakers are a great value. Do love two ways. The best sounding one I ever heard was the Kharma S7. It is over $20k and not an SET friendly speaker. But I walked into that Kharma room at CES and was immediately stunned by the real sound. It was powered by a SS amp. I guess they aren’t so bad. I have found that you really have to match the amp with the speaker. They are like the “two hands clapping” in a system.
PHY has introduced a new 6" driver that is inexpensive, 96dB and 16 ohms. Duke of Audiokinesis designed a sealed box for it; we're listening to a prototype of it which is very fast and images effortlessly. The driver is also suitable for OB or quarter wave rear loaded horn applications (there are plans for the quarter wave horn cabinet on the PHY website). Duke told me he was impressed at how smooth the driver is; it has no whizzer cone but goes past 15KHz rivaling the best full range drivers. It can go down below 80Hz so can be easily integrated with a sub (80Hz is sort of the magic number in that regard; below 80Hz bass is omnidirectional to the human ear so even though the sub might be elsewhere, the bass will sound as if its coming from the main speakers due to harmonics of the bass notes).
Although this is a bit on the low side for efficiency for most SETs, if the SET didn't have to play anything below 80Hz this could be quite practical.
@corelli I did look at them and the Crystal 10 driver they use. They seem like an excellent value when compared to other full range offerings. I liked the Cube Audio speakers I heard at CAF, but the price...wow...way too rich for me. I can't bring myself to buy pre-built speakers anymore, but I would seriously consider the Lii Audio Crystal 10 if I did. I chose the Lii F15 to dip my toes into OB and the build is pretty simple. I'm really glad for these great DIY friendly drivers! I'm liking them more and more, now to get those baffles made!
@waterclocker Did you happen to consider these as well. Normally I would want to, like you, do a DIY project with a fullrange driver. But these are way beyond what I could do with a cabinet. Suspect these would pair up superbly with the OP's SE amp. Anybody heard these? Beautiful to look at to boot!
My speakers are the Decware HDT. Had them since 2004. To me, it is truly magical when using a properly built and engineered single full range driver. No subwoofer needed with these. Steve's bass loading scheme really works. Just an outstanding speaker.
I've always used a Decware SE84 variety, or one of my custom built jobbies at 2 watts/channel. Plenty loud for me.
I have a Dennis Had KT150 SEP and his LP-3a preamp, but I don't use them much any more. I built the P134B designed by Jack Elliano of Electra-Print with all top grade parts. Parts like Jupiter coupling caps, Audio Note Silver Tantalum resistors, AN Kaisei caps, VH Audio OCC wire, and more. The transformers that Jack wound are MASSIVE in comparison and you can tell the difference in sound. The sound is rich and vibrant with deep powerful bass. I don't want to step on any toes, but I can't go back to my Dennis Had. His are understandably built for an entry level single ended price and couldn't possibly put the parts I used in and make money without charging $3-4K. The DH amps are a good start and really got me into the magic of single ended, so I certainly wouldn't fault them. I might upgrade the caps in mine and see how they do, I do really like the flexible tube rolling they offer too.
A note...Dennis Had is back with SEP (he's lately been doing mostly lower powered SETs...my amp is a pentode model) amps on Ebay that seem to be orderable as he notes different color face plates are available. He's added a stereo volume pot but I imagine you can get him to eliminate it maybe...a world class hand made amp at a bargain price IMO...note I have no affiliation with Had except my daily astonishment at how good my Had amp sounds.
I have some experience with 3 different sets of affordable efficient speakers, some mentioned above. The amps I've run are a 3.5 wpc 2a3 SET and an 11 wpc EL34 SEP
1) Tekton Perfect SET - Clean, clear, and powerful. Nice deep bass, powerful dynamics, and excellent imaging. They can fill bigger spaces with full range sound very nicely. I did upgrade my caps and the improvement was great, I highly recommend the upgrade for high end SET enthusiasts.
2) 8008-Corner by Troels Gravesen - Similar to the Audio Note E, simple efficient 2-way kit with top quality parts. These are 92db eff., so on the lower end for SE amps, but the impedance is very flat and super easy to drive. (AN-E have overrated efficiency, so these are very close, Troels's article explains this) These are my top speaker, but best in smaller rooms and with corner placement. These have a vibrant, rich, and vivid realistic sound that performs very well with SE amps. Bass won't fully rival the Tekton, but it's there and they go very deep for a smaller 2-way. Daft Punk is a joy with my 11w SEP and not bad on the 2a3 either. I think the smaller transformers of the 2a3 limit the deepest bass.
3) Lii Audio F15 - Just got these and still need to build a baffle, but I'm starting to like them. They tried to tear my ears off with any volume at first, but they are settling in nicely after 4 days straight of run in. I think I'll like these better than other OB or Full Range single driver in the end. I also think they will need a sub to play as deep as the other 2 speakers above, but the baffle will certainly help too. There is still a bit of coloration from the whizzer cone, but not too bad and it might still get better with time. I'm really liking the big sound stage, excellent detail, and nice kick the 15" woofer has in the mid bass. I'm planning to build some flea watt amps to power these, should be fun.
A second for some of the GR Research models, the Super V if you can find a pair. It is comprised of a coaxial mid/tweeter and the remarkable OB/Dipole woofer.
Sandy Gross who is the head of Golden Ear uses a SET amp in his personal system with the Triton Reference Speakers. He also used a SET amp as part of the voicing of the GE Triton series of speakers.
I recently, as an experiment, hooked up a pair of Golden Ear Triton 1s to my 9 wpc Elekit TU-8600R (300B output tubes). I discovered they worked beautifully! Plus the powered subwoofer sections really helped out! It tuns out that the Triton 1s are much more efficient than I thought. You can find them used at very reasonable prices as they are now discontinued. The bass enhancement is remarkable.
As I've stated around 172 times, Klipsch Heresy IIIs are 99db efficient and I use 'em with 2 REL subs to cover the under 58hz needs. The new Heresy IVs play deeper by 10hz or so but I haven't heard those...a great match with my 12wpc SEP (Dennis Had Firebottle HO) amp, lots of headroom, not dirty or colored one bit as I only use a couple of watts, and I'm utterly in agreement that single ended tube amps are the s***. Musical...they're musical...I even sent back a well reviewed Schiit Aegir as it sounded silly next to my tube amp. Not sure if Klipsch Heritage items were "designed for SETs" but man...a great sounding solution, and the now discontinued IIIs are being sold el cheapo here and there.
I’ve owned Vandersteen 1B speakers for a long time.They are easy to drive and have a 6 ohm impedance.
These are not suitable for an SET. Generally speaking, to get the best out of any SET the amplifier should never be driven past about 20-25% of full power. If you do, higher ordered harmonics begin to appear, at first only on transients. The ear uses those harmonics to sense sound pressure, so this causes the amp to sound very 'dynamic' but its really distortion masquerading as dynamics. If you've read about how dynamic SETs can be, this is why. A speaker at least 10dB more efficient that the Vandersteens is needed; even the Coincidents are a bit on the low side, notwithstanding the fact that they also sell SETs.
One way to deal with this is to get a sub or subs (the best being the Audiokinesis Swarm) and then get a speaker that only goes down to 70Hz or so. If the SET does not have to make the bass and the speaker doesn't either, the choices available goes up quite a lot!
I’ve owned Vandersteen 1B speakers for a long time.They are easy to drive and have a 6 ohm impedance.You can find them used for not a lot.Great sound and have been made since the 70’s
You might consider speakers from GR Research (Danny Richie). Most designs are high sensitivity like 94dB into 8 ohms. There are DIY kits as well if that's of interest. Many people build them and sell them to others based on your desired finish specs.
Danny and his team do a bunch of work for other manufacturers as well as clean up designs, crossovers, etc. Great resource on YouTube as well.
Check out Caintuck Audio. The Betsy open baffles sound fantastic. Also available with alnico drivers. They are full range 8" speakers. He also offers the Lii 15" full range from Lii audio. They are rated at 100db@1 watt.
Decware offers the Lii 15 in a couple of larger baffles. You can listen to them on Decware’s website and Facebook page. Use a good pair of headphones. Steve Deckert used professional recording gear to make the videos. He used a 2 watt SET amp and his Teres turntable for a source.
The Betsy open baffles are $400 to $500. You add $220 to upgrade to Alnico drivers. The Lii 15 is around $750.
Decware's "Big Betsy" speakers are $3500-$5000+. His SE84UFO set amp is $995. Decware usually has 10% off on black Friday, the only sale they run all year. Right now till June 1 they are doing a 10% off on your complete order.
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