"Detail and imaging on the Bluetooth signals and the optical from the TV (even doing Bluetooth casts from the laptop to the TV)."
Are vastly improved, is what I meant to say...
Are vastly improved, is what I meant to say...
Dream Speakers = landed. Now I need to feed them!
So I scored a pair of Belle Klipsch (1987 models, AB crossover). I would have gone for Khorns, but the room they were going in just wasn't going to work. RIght now, I'm running a cheap little Sony (STR-DH190) stereo receiver on them, and even that sounds amazing, but I know I've barely scratched the surface of what they're capable of. The dream is a pair of SET monoblocks (probably 300B type), though I'm worried about not being able to drive the bottom enough. I listen to a wide array of music from classical and opera to extreme metal, though my wife is decidedly more of a rock person, so I definitely need something that will push those woofers proper.
Due to lifestyle and logistics, a big piece of my source audio is going to be HQ feeds from my laptop via Bluetooth. I know, not an ideal source, but until I build my HTPC, it's just going to have to work. I also need to run optical out from my Sony Bravia (which I can't do right now because the receiver doesn't have optical in and the TV doesn't have analog out).
Here's the hard part: Right now, I can't really spend more than $1k for the whole shebang. So I started hunting.
At first I was sniffing around looking for a tube preamp that can handle both Bluetooth and Toslink, but all that seems to be out there are suspiciously cheap Chinese integrated amps that have no pre out for later use. I also looked at some dedicated DAC's such as the Cambridge Audio DACMagic, that I knew I could pair with a BT-capable tube pre. But I'm still sketchy about the cheap Chinese kit. I've heard positive things about Dared, though, and I was thinking their 5BT would be a good foundation alongside the aforementioned DAC, because I could use its power stage for right now, and if I can't stay in the right now budget to get a good pair of monoblocks, then I could wait for a while and buy the right ones later.
Thoughts? Opinions? Alternative ideas?
Due to lifestyle and logistics, a big piece of my source audio is going to be HQ feeds from my laptop via Bluetooth. I know, not an ideal source, but until I build my HTPC, it's just going to have to work. I also need to run optical out from my Sony Bravia (which I can't do right now because the receiver doesn't have optical in and the TV doesn't have analog out).
Here's the hard part: Right now, I can't really spend more than $1k for the whole shebang. So I started hunting.
At first I was sniffing around looking for a tube preamp that can handle both Bluetooth and Toslink, but all that seems to be out there are suspiciously cheap Chinese integrated amps that have no pre out for later use. I also looked at some dedicated DAC's such as the Cambridge Audio DACMagic, that I knew I could pair with a BT-capable tube pre. But I'm still sketchy about the cheap Chinese kit. I've heard positive things about Dared, though, and I was thinking their 5BT would be a good foundation alongside the aforementioned DAC, because I could use its power stage for right now, and if I can't stay in the right now budget to get a good pair of monoblocks, then I could wait for a while and buy the right ones later.
Thoughts? Opinions? Alternative ideas?
76 responses Add your response
Update: The Denon HEOS is working perfectly as a DAC right now, feeding into the Sony. Detail and imaging on the Bluetooth signals and the optical from the TV (even doing Bluetooth casts from the laptop to the TV). Quicksilvers are on order, but he's running 3 weeks behind on delivery, so I don't expect to see them until the end of the month. Will be interesting to see how the Denon functions in variable mode (right now it's set to fixed into the Sony) as a preamp. The most important part, though, as much as I'm drooling over getting the Quicksilver monos into the system, is that I, my wife, and all of our friends and family that have come over are marveling over the realism these speakers deliver. Listening to music is a joyful thing, a communal thing, and there's no doubt the Belles have made the experience that much more joyful for us. |
Enjoy the experience and don’t rush it. Great speakers deserve both time and thought. Once the Quicksilvers are in, that's exactly what I intend to do. Relax and enjoy. I've already got some upgraded interconnects coming in to solve that problem, though I am shopping around for some quality gold-plate spade ends (for the speaker side) in advance. |
I’d also recommend the Willsenton R8. I think one of the YouTube reviewers did a video w the R8 and a pair of Klipsch speakers and loved the combo. I’m using it with a low sensitivity pair of Dynaudio monitors and it also sounds great. I can’t really think of anything that comes close at that price point. Shipped it will probably be a bit over budget, but well worth the price. Great resale value too. |
@jbhiller As someone who witnessed the entire development of "prosumer" digital audio interfaces for recording purposes, I'd 100% agree. DAC's from 25 years ago just didn't have the bandwidth, error correction, or even the dithering and noise shaping algorithms we have today. I might be convinced to give a 25-year-old audiophile DAC a spin if I could pick one up at Goodwill for 5 bucks. But $1500? Nope. Not a chance. |
My understanding is technology has changed so much in 25 years that a 25 year old DAC, while it may be decent today, can be bettered by many options in today's market. I saw a ML 36 DAC for $1500 used somewhere recently. I'll be honest--I'm not entirely sure I know the definitive answer, but if it was me, I'd avoid the 25 year old DAC and focus on something newer--especially if the 25 year old DAC costs $1.5k, as I think today's options at that price or lower would be better. I'm curious though. |
@jbhiller The room is good sized, and it has the added advantage of not being square. The listening area is 21x12.5, but it's open to a dining room behind which is an additional 12.5x9. So far I haven't dared push the Sony (100wpc) above 75% volume, which is enough to not only blast the listening area with absurd volumes, but be clearly audible outside, with all windows closed. I doubt 25 tube watts from those Quicksilvers will have any trouble driving them. |
JerkFace, I’m not in a good spot to recommend the Carver over another amp specifically. That’s a decision for you! Both are well made and offer a lot for the money. I’ve heard them both but not with your speakers in your room. Speaking of which, how big is your room? Do you listen loud much? I have a 300b amp too that I swap in every so often. It’s great but with my 100dB sensitive Cornwall IVs I find I like more headroom for louder sessions. |
@Whiteknee (not sure why this works for some users but not others...) "Are you using your Sony’s tone controls or loudness feature to get your current ‘great’ sound?" I am not using the loudness feature, and the only tone adjustment I made was +3dB on the treble to overcome what I believe is a reflection artifact from all the glass and hard surfaces in the space. I'll have a better feel for that once I get the dampening curtains and a few panels on the walls. The acoustic panels are definitely a sore spot for the wife, who has been otherwise completely supportive of every aspect of this adventure. I'm very pleased with the bass response to this point. |
Whatever you choose to power them optimizing the internals of the speakers will increase the apparent sound quality by as much a 50%. Putting in the best polypropylene capacitors (top Wimas are recommended) & Vishay resistors will do wonders. Better audiophile wire as well. Klipsch in the 70s put monster cable in their production speakers which meant it was Paul Klipsch's idea. Don't know how that progressed but it clearly points the way. You may need to double up on caps for their values to match what's in the xover. That might mean an exterior box. One thing's for sure, you'll be near staggered by the difference in sound quality.Actually, I'm looking seriously at doing the full crossover upgrade from Bob Crites. Not fully committed to swapping out the squawker and tweeter, though there are compelling cases to be made to do so. I'm definitely more into the idea of a fully assembled replacement over risking my poor soldering skills defeating whatever gains I was supposed to make replacing caps. :) |
Whatever you choose to power them optimizing the internals of the speakers will increase the apparent sound quality by as much a 50%. Putting in the best polypropylene capacitors (top Wimas are recommended) & Vishay resistors will do wonders. Better audiophile wire as well. Klipsch in the 70s put monster cable in their production speakers which meant it was Paul Klipsch's idea. Don't know how that progressed but it clearly points the way. You may need to double up on caps for their values to match what's in the xover. That might mean an exterior box. One thing's for sure, you'll be near staggered by the difference in sound quality. |
I can’t make suggestions on a source/DAC but can relate my story with the Belles and make a few observations on amplification that may be helpful. From my experience (and with my taste in music) the Belle’s need a boost at the bottom end which was suggested above by @tds3371. For the first 20 years of Belle ownership, I achieved this with preamp EQ…..for the past 15 years I have used either EQ or a sub. With your tastes in music, you may not feel this is necessary. Are you using your Sony’s tone controls or loudness feature to get your current ‘great’ sound? I bought the Belle’s new in 1984 along with a Mac C33 preamp. The C33 has a 5 band EQ + Fletcher Munson variable loudness dial. With these controls I could shape the music around various rooms and types of music and really push deep, loud, driving bass from the Belles 15” woofer. During this early ownership period power amps included 50 and 200 wpc Brystons (ss), 105 wpc Mac (ss), 140 wpc B&K (ss) and a 35 wpc Cary (tube). The latter tube amp was by far the best sounding with the Belle’s. EL 34 tubes for sweet mids rolled to 6550s for more bass punch. In 2005 I purchased a 1000-watt SVS ported sub with two 12” drivers for a 5.1 system (Belles up front and 2 pairs of Heresy’s in the back and center). This was driven by Bryston 4Bs and 3 sets of Bryston 2Bs and controlled with a Mac AV preamp. Very exciting/dynamic set-up for movies and concert videos. Once my kids were out of the house, I disassembled the 5.1 and focused on stereo with the Belles and SVS. I wanted to see what the Belles would sound like with a tone control-less preamp so I purchased a PrimaLuna Dialogue…..this is where I rediscovered that the Belles needed help at the bottom end to sound balanced. For me, the SVS was a perfect match for a 2.1 system. Within the past 2 years I have purchased a Cary 300B integrated amp (15 wpc) (like you I always heard 300B were great with Klipsch Legacy) and a First Watt SIT-3 ss amp (18 wpc). Both sound sublime with the Belles (and with Heresy’s and Zu DWs). I laugh to think I was driving them with such high-powered amps in the early days – I was young and thought more power was better :-). I can still sound shape with the C33 but mostly use the PL tube preamp with SIT-3 or the CAD 300, both with the SVS sub in the mix. Btw, I did upgrade the crossover and tweeters 3 years ago
with the Bob Crites A/4500 xo and CT 120 tweeter. This pushed the midrange xo point down from
6000 to 4500 hz so the tweeter is now covering down to 4500 hz. In my opinion, the top end became more forward
(not bright but more present) then with the OEM set-up which is good for most
music. Listening to "Jazz at the Pawn
Shop” the noise floor is very low and the tinkling of every ice cube in every
glass is magical. The perception is that
you are sitting at a table in the night club. Good luck with your journey! |
Take a look at this: https://doge.audio/product/doge-5-padc/ This one is around $1k. And, unless someone can tell you (a) they have looked inside a Doge; (b) they've heard one; and (c) they have dealt with the company--don't listen to statements about made in China. The chief engineer of Doge knows what he's doing. Quality of build and parts components are higher than many well selling other brands. |
Hi Jerkface! If you are going to hold off on a move until you can do tubes, the advice above about pairing a Carver 275 with Klipsch is good--in my experience. The Crimson 275 sings with Klipsch heritage/vintage stuff. But that would still require a preamp or a DAC with a volume control. The poster above who warned about your Klipsch being sensitive to sources and amps is correct. Whatever you do, you’ll want to be careful and test stuff out, knowing you might need to be patient and save. You could also look at used Rogue, Quicksilver, Primaluna, Willsenton R8, or Doge. Each brand has a tube integrated that would likely work well with those speakers. If you watch used listings and could add $300-$500 to your budget you'd score one. I don't think you're getting an integrated DAC at that point, and you might be better off trying a budget DAC solution. Best of luck! |
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I too went down a similar journey and found that a pre-owned Peachtree Nova 150 did the trick until I could afford to build the front end I really wanted. Lived with it for 2 years and it's really good for the money @ $800-$1000 used. It has a decent DAC, good class D power with great low end control and all the connections you could possibly want, including optical and even Home Theater bypass.Just saying, I'd just as soon stand pat with my Sony if I can't move into tubes. Klipsch speakers, particularly the Khorn, Belle, and LaScala, were literally designed for tubes. I feel pretty strongly like I have a path here, starting with the Denon DAC I just ordered and ending with the Quicksilver monoblocks. I might look at tube preamps afterward just to bridge that gap, but there will be a lot of room treatments (not to mention house reno work including cutting a big hole in a wall that is currently a big reflector in the back) happening before I even consider taking that step. This is not a set-in-concrete plan, but it is a point of emphasis that I'm not interested in spending on digital or SS amps to pair with these babies. Even the shitty Sony sounds great through the Belles, and I'd rather put up with its deficiencies than spend money on kit that doesn't get me closer to the end-state. |
I can highly recommend the Bob Latino (VTA) ST-70. I ran one with my Silverlines @93.5 db with great results. FWIW I bought it to dip my toes in the tube amp side just to see. It replaced a $4500 250 wpc amp which was from a well respected company. So don't listen to those who think you need "headroom" with 200wpc. Its NOT true especially with 104db speakers. If you are handy with a soldering iron you can buy the kit for the ST-70 for a little less than your budget. The pro built one is about $1300 and worth every penny. Its also a tube rollers dream amp that can use a LOT of different tubes. Sometimes a used one comes up for sale. tubes4hifi amplifier KITs page |
I too went down a similar journey and found that a pre-owned Peachtree Nova 150 did the trick until I could afford to build the front end I really wanted. Lived with it for 2 years and it's really good for the money @ $800-$1000 used. It has a decent DAC, good class D power with great low end control and all the connections you could possibly want, including optical and even Home Theater bypass. You get a whole lot for your money. It's what most would consider a mid-fi solution but I think it will push your
Klipsch's nicely at 150 watts into 8ohms. Not to mention it's stunningly beautiful and has a sort of vintage look of its own. Because you're buying pre-owned, you can likely get most of your money back once you upgrade. |
Don’t listen to Millercarbon. Go with a Dyna 70. It’s even sorta period correct. There are many available as stock, or modified as this one is: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DYNACO-DYNAKIT-VTA-ST-70-Tube-Amplifier-NEW-Build-/154394386390?_trksid=p23... Still considered one of the best amps of all time. Period. Pair it with a Dyna PAS. You will want a rebuilt modified PAS. A bit more than your budget at the moment, but if you stretch it, this could last you a long time. A very long time. |
sgreg1109 posts04-01-2021 12:02pmDon’t care what anyone will say but you can’t do HT and two channel with one system without major compromises to the two channel sound. Even if you have to plug and unplug the speakers for the different applications keep they systems separate. Trust me been there three it thought it was great but soon realized it was a big fail. Went to two channel independent and never looked back. @sgreg1 Yes you can! I have a HT and I would challenge you that my 2 channel sounds as good as many 2 channel systems. Admittedly, I’ve spent a lot to get that sound( Vertere Acoustics MG-1 table/ Rogue Ares Magnum phono drive,Classe SSP-800 processor with analog pass through to 2 Jeff Rowland Model 12 monoblocks powering JM Lab Mezzo Utopia’s). There are zero sonic compromises. I think a lot depends on the processor in many ways. |
Hideous. Look, the last thing you want to do on a budget is throw money away on absolute crap. There are two kinds of people here: one or two like me who know what's what and will tell you no matter what, and a whole herd who will happily encourage you to spend, spend, spend. You've got your info. Choose wisely. |
Don’t care what anyone will say but you can’t do HT and two channel with one system without major compromises to the two channel sound. Even if you have to plug and unplug the speakers for the different applications keep they systems separate. Trust me been there three it thought it was great but soon realized it was a big fail. Went to two channel independent and never looked back.I have no intention of trying to deploy a surround system. "HTPC" was probably better termed as "Media Server". Meanwhile, I think I might have found a one-box answer to the various and sundry connectivity questions, and enable me to keep the Media Server in the office where it belongs. Anyone had any experience with this seemingly perfect little solution? https://www.abt.com/Denon-HEOS-Link-HS2-Black-Wireless-Pre-Amplifier-HEOSLINKHS2SR/p/100967.html?cam... |
For that price, get the best integrated you can afford and pair it with a Pi Streamer or Pi Streamer/DAC if the integrated does not have a DAC. If you want a bit of tube-ishness consider something with a tube preamplifier. Ditch the Bluetooth. Continue to dream about the mono blocks, this will be a good upgrade you can replace piece by piece, pre, power, streamer, DAC, as allowed.Oh, I've got a box all prepped and ready to be turned into an HTPC. I'm just waiting for an additional hard drive to arrive. |
For that price, get the best integrated you can afford and pair it with a Pi Streamer or Pi Streamer/DAC if the integrated does not have a DAC. If you want a bit of tube-ishness consider something with a tube preamplifier. Ditch the Bluetooth. Continue to dream about the mono blocks, this will be a good upgrade you can replace piece by piece, pre, power, streamer, DAC, as allowed. |
Don’t care what anyone will say but you can’t do HT and two channel with one system without major compromises to the two channel sound. Even if you have to plug and unplug the speakers for the different applications keep they systems separate. Trust me been there three it thought it was great but soon realized it was a big fail. Went to two channel independent and never looked back. |
In 2012 when I decided to hop back into HiFi I jumped on a Peachtree Nova and some discounted Wharfedale towers. OK sound but hard to tailor in my downtown loft with many hard surfaces (no tone controls) plus the DAC was outdated almost immediately although still great for CDs. For separates I would buy a Project Pre Box https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/pre-box-s2-digital/ and pair it with the best used amp/receiver you can find (I got a refurbished Pioneer SA-9100), even using your current one with the Pre and comparing it to others as you try them. You might find a used Pre or if not you would still have $500 to spend on each. If wanting to get one and be done with decent DAC, AB power and Phono I had luck with the older version of this for awhile https://outlawaudio.com/shop/stereo-receivers/56-rr2160mkii-stereo-receiver.html Good Luck!! |
Since you considered a Cambridge DAC and also a pre amp why not look for a used Cambridge Azur 851N. You may find one in your price range. Its a really good sounding DAC with all the connections you could need, that has a built in streamer and a preamp you can turn on or off. It will connect to your Sony reciever until you save more and figure out what direction you want to go in amp wise. |
I 2nd the Schiit Ragnarok, it is a very good amp. You can get it with built in dac also but the total cost is about $2k. If you can find one used it may be lower. I think an integrated with a dac is the best option in this price range. Another idea would be the new Leak Stereo 130 for about $1k. I think it has a built in dac. Regarding optical in that is unusual nowadays but there are converters you can buy. |
@jerkface - are you only considering tube amplifiers? https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/integrated-tube-amp-under-1000-2000 |
@jerkface Welcome to the Belle Klipsch experience. I love mine. Crites is great as is ALK for upgrading your crossover. Also cheap improvement is to cover your horns with Dynamat. It was recommended that I do the full "Doghouse" even the brace that holds the midrange. I have not done that yet, but the horns made a nice difference. Have fun! |
I’m with MC on this. When you are looking at a limited budget, an integrated is the way to go. You can put money you would spend on interconnects, PC’s etc. into a higher quality Int. For your source, see if you can find one with an onboard DAC. If not, add an inexpensive DAC for now. You’ll be way happier, and a good tube flea watt Int. can drive those 104db speakers just fine. |
Then again, if you're expecting audiophile equipment to be sold by those platforms it's probably worth looking online elsewhere (i.e. Audiogon to start Which is why I went first to the Klipsch forums, then here, after the shock of trying to sort out what the hell I was looking at in terms of new tube options. |
This is the second thread tonight that says "buy reputable Chinese, like Woo Audio..." Woo Audio is from New York! Woo Audio 1-917-773-8645 As to the OP, I think he is on the right track with a 300b system. Plenty of bottom end on my LaScala IIs. BTW, at shows, Klipsch frequently demos their Heritage speakers with Cary SLI 80 (or whichever upgrade is current). https://www.caryaudio.com/products/sli-80hs/ |
If you can get this for under $500, its a no brainer.... Of course unless everyone that see's it on here bids against you. Audio Refinement Complete Integrated Amplifier: Silver Version | eBay |