@soix +
Resolution, transparency not the most difficult aspect of sound quality to achieve with streaming. Yes, noise, both external and self generated can enter at many points, but even with less than best streamers relatively high resolution, transparency can be achieved assuming one has decent dac.
My experience has found timing greatly impacts digital sound quality. Get the timing right throughout entire streaming setup and the closer one gets to positive traits of analog. Correct timing allows largest soundstage, most stable imaging, and most importantly, greater sense of ease, relaxed musical experience. Jitter is what gives digital it's bad name, and the reason some maintain vinyl superior to digital. New custom build streamer I recently purchased was built with parts and components specifically chosen for lowest latency, low latency means less jitter. Using the same dac as with prior streamers, greater levels of resolution/transparency has certainly been achieved, but sense of ease or analog like sound qualities has been revelatory.
I observe ever decreasing levels of measured jitter in digital components, certainly large measure of why digital continues to improve.
Another critical thing to remember, you can never get back what has been lost earlier in streaming chain. No dac can clean up noise or jitter created earlier in chain, just as optical with it's total galvanic isolation can't restore whats been lost in regard to noise, the jitter manufactured within streamer has already contaminated the bit chain, even the finest asynchronous clocks in dacs can't restore whats been lost prior.
There is a reason why the best streamers attain higher levels of sound quality, lower latency/jitter and self generated noise. If dacs could really restore whats been lost streamers would all sound the same.
Finally, I presume digital at some point in future will finally surpass the very best analog/vinyl. Audiophile and/or digital engineers are paying close attention to these latency issues within digital components, Ever decreasing jitter will be achieved in future components, this along with ever decreasing noise will further improve digital sound quality.
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I did a quick search for Darko's streamer reviews. Not sure I found the one @soix cited. Anyway, Darko's highest praise seems to go to the Logitech Squeezebox Touch. You can get one of those on eBay for less than $200 (US). I wonder if anyone here has heard a significant sound quality improvement in going from the SBT to, say, the Auralic Aries G2.1 ($5699). Not necessarily 30X better ... but at least noticeable to the average listener.
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@tk21 I know it can be tough to accept that streamers make a big difference, and I applaud you for at least keeping your mind open as opposed to many here who just close their minds based on their beliefs rather than just listening. Most experienced listeners here observe significant differences between streamers and that they’re at least as important as the DAC they feed. Darko did a head-to-head comparison of several streamers a while back and found significant differences in sound quality so might be informative searching that review out. My advice: Trust your own ears and come to your own conclusions because that’s really all that matters. FWIW…
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For many devices recently on the market, the streamer is integrated with a DAC and possibly preamp capabilities (volume control, source selection, or both). So chances are, you won't be hearing the "streamer itself" in isolation from one or more of those other functions. Furthermore, streamer A and streamer B may be delivering different combinations of software effects (DSP) or source content, which all color the output. FWIW, Stereophile does not have a separate category for "streamers" in its annual list of recommended components. They have a "digital processors" category, which mostly covers DACs (many of which have integrated streaming or preamp capabilities, equalization, DSP, etc.)
So, while In theory "everything is important", I doubt that anyone here has done controlled, volume-leveled A-B comparisons among multiple streamers in a way that focuses solely on the streaming functions, per se, of all the compared devices. I'd venture to say that the impact on SQ of the streaming capability, per se, probably is somewhere between negligible and unobservable compared to the impact of the DAC and especially the preamp effects. But I don't really know for sure, and would welcome anyone to point out a good comparison of multiple streamers, one based on some credible combination of metrics and expert observation.
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Another reason I chose the N200, I can use either it's USB or Coax. I think my DAC sounds better via Coax . I think the clock in the Aurender is better than in my DAC, this would explain why I think the Coax connection sounds better. My other DAC uses it's internal clock whether you use USB, Coax, or Tos so I can't make any comparisons. Maybe down the road I'll have a DAC that sounds better via USB, who knows ut it's good to have both outputs. I run the USB out of the N200 to my headphone rig , a RME adi2 .
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Only a boob would believe that.
I did write that too fast, and I'm sorry but let's be nice to those just starting to learn.
Even the best asynchronous DAC's can be impacted by really bad streams/streamers, especially streaming radio.
For the most part, a good low noise clock on a DAC with asynch USB is pretty awesome but they can't do magic, and if things upstream get bad enough, including if a digital ground loop occurs the DAC could be subject to less than ideal performance.
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@erik_squires
At the end of the day though your DAC is going to be subject to the clock of the streamer
Only a boob would believe that.
Not my DAC.
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OK. Lots of people try to explain this and the only argument that I find compelling is to discuss the difference between streaming and file transfer. Digital files are perfect, aka, "bit perfect". your bank couldn’t survive if it dropped bits. So when you download a file, even a song file (not a streamed song, totally different), it will be checked with error correction until it is perfect. 100%. zero bits dropped. That is why a corrupted file may set there forever with the hourglass. It is trying to correct the errors and get it right and finally gives up.
When streaming music you don’t have that luxury. There can be no delay. dropped bits have to be filled in by best guesses by the streaming protocol. Dropped bits happen and are degrade sound quality a lot on an audiophile system. This is not really a problem for a teenager streaming Spotify on Alexa which is 99% of the streaming market. But on our systems it is the difference between good soundstage, tight bass, delicate highs, and an expensive sound system that underperforms.
So we have to spend a lot of money on streamers, cables, and ethernet switches. Timing is important too. Now the good news is you can get adequate (not great) performance from relatively inexpensive streamers. A $300 to $500 streamer will tremendously outperform a computer.
And of couse don’t forget the DAC which is the heart of the system. Unlike a streamer, you can’t go cheap on a DAC.
And don't even think about wireless streaming.
Jerry
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Affirmitive.
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The N200 was a little more than I planned spending but I traded a preamp plus cash to make it happen. Was planning to use that preamp until mine is built but I could not miss the opportunity to buy the N200 so I did a deal that was super easy on the wallet.
Great decision and although I have my back up preamp in the system it still sounds pretty good.
I have pretty much abandoned physical media since owning a Vault. I have put the Vault's content in the Aurender and will use the N200 almost exclusively now. Im thinking of selling my OPPO 103, I can't even remember the last time i played a CD or BluRay in it.
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@oddiofyl
+1
I have used every streaming source possible. The moment I bought a dedicated streamer I immediately abandoned other sources and rapidly moved up the levels, experiencing major sound quality improvements at every step culminating with the flagship Aurender streamer: W20SE…. $22K… worth every penny in sound quality. I also own an Aurender N100 for my headphone system. You can see my systems under my UserID.
Best to hear a great quality dedicated streamer then work on the logic. I recommend starting with one costing about the average cost of your components or a bit more. My streamer cast about 20% more than the average cost of my other components… like preamp, phono stage, TT, DAC.
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I recently replaced my Vault 2i with an Aurender N200 . I used the Vault 2i with several good DACs since owning it. It is a great machine. I still use it for convenience and to rip content.
The Aurender is in a different league as far as build quality, support, and sound quality.
While Bluesound support is OK , but their focus is on forward compatibility with new BS devices. Yes you sometimes get new features but the firmware often fixes bugs / known issues.
Aurender will actually get into your device remotely if necessary. They answered my support question fast and their upcoming software revision took care off the issue. This all happened within a few day of my support request.
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Based on my experience with a variety of streamers over perhaps ten years of streaming I've come to conclusion streamer can make as much or more difference than dac.
Streamer is really the heart of streaming setup, does the rendering and has large influence on timing. Having both optimized is the difference between digital sounding digital and analog sounding digital. Audition one of the top tier streamers like Aurender WE20SE, Taiko Extreme, etc against multitude of mid grade streamers in high resolving system, I guarantee you'll hear massive difference.
Example above is extreme example, but even in less optimized systems you'll hear worthwhile gains. As stated previously, multitude of posts testifying to value of streamers, we're not all delusional. Per usual, one can presume many things, only actual experience is educating.
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My observation was that as I moved upstream, the spatial information significantly increased, making my Node 2i sound dimensionally "flat" in contrast. The two units had the same tonality, but the presentation was different.
Vn Video Editor For PC
SkyEmu
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@dvdgreco
the search bar above is your friend
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The ones and zeroes generally make it to your DAC intact. However, as noted in other posts here, streaming accuracy and the eventual sound is highly dependent on two other factors, timing (jitter) and electrical noise. Streamers make a huge difference.
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I don’t mean this to be rude - but this question has been asked many times in this forum and I’d suggest you will find it helpful to review the previous discussions. Or, you may find it particularly unhelpful as there are a number of posters who go to their respective corners to defend a viewpoint.
My $.02 is based on direct experience. I’ve had multiple streamers and they do sound different. BTW - so do digital cables and network switches and all sorts of other digital elements. This is anathema to the “it’s just 1s and 0s” crowd.
My experience in moving upstream was that the spatial information improved greatly such that my Node 2i sounded dimensionally “flat” in comparison. The tonality of the two units was the same, but the presentation was not.
How can this be if it’s just 1s and 0s? While I do not know with certainty, I can speculate.
The digital signal transmitted as 1s and 0s is done in analogue format via voltage changes. There are not 1s and 0s migrating down a cable but a current which must be interpreted as 1s and 0s by a converter. The current is a sine wave of sorts and the slope and speed of the wave are variables. Along with the primary carrier signal is the addition of noise which can distort the wave meaning that the interpretation of weather it’s a 1 or 0 might be altered ever so slightly.. Now imagine how vast and rapid is the information migrating and being “interpreted” across the system. Is it not reasonable to expect that there could be differences - even if extremely minor - coming across the signal path that when so multiplied might be received by a DAC and have some differences in sound?
Regardless of my viewpoint here, others with plenty of knowledge will disagree and claim what I’m hearing is imagined. So be it. May I suggest you try an in-home audition? I haven’t heard the Cambridge unit, but am well acquainted with the Node 2i which I still have in a kitchen system. But, it was moved there after I auditioned other units in my better system and the difference was enough for me to happily pull out my wallet.
Good luck in your search.
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This is a great question and one I have been thinking about. I just switched from an all in one streamer/DAC/Preamp so no cabling involved to a lumin U2 into reimyo dac into SPL preamp all with Canare quad XLR cables.
I can not hear a diff. So if there should or should not be a diff I don't know but I am not hearing one. The main diff I have heard was switching DACs. I think you may hear a diff between say bluesound node and a lumin but could be noise reduction. The bits are perfect as they are so contamination from poor cables or constructed streamer components could cause a diff.
The lumin u2 is amazing. I was able to trade in the esoteric to Mike Kay (I have no affiliation and this is not an add so hope I don't get struck) but you get honest opinion on this topic as that is he forte.
Look forward to hearing more comments.
Best JH Love this stuff!
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@dvdgreco "That said, the streamer itself could not influence the sound quality heard by the audience. I think it is bit-perfect information coming across to the dac."
Sure the streamer itself can the sound quality - parts quality, implementation of design, power supply , anti-reasonance , shielding etc. all impact SQ.
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Search the forums. This has already been covered extensively.
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I think three ways a streamer can impact sound quality:
- USB / Coax ground loops
- Excess jitter
- AC line noise
I think paying attention to the quality of the wall wart (if used) and making sure the USB cable is isolated (when possible, not all DAC's like this) takes care of most. At the end of the day though your DAC is going to be subject to the clock of the streamer, so having a streamer with a good buffer and low phase noise clock is important.
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