Personally I would run those full range and just dial the sub in with a low crossover. Or use a DSP based low pass for the sub or something like the JL Audio crossover just for low pass, Those are big speakers you'll be missing a lot of what they can deliver at low frequencies and the sub can be located by ear because it is playing above 60- 80 Hz.
Reference 3A 's special sauce is that they don't really use a crossover themselves , they use a filter cap to protect the tweeter and those woofers are essentially run full range. I believe all of their speakers are like that.
I like subs, but they can do more harm than good if you operate them crossed over that high.
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Why would you want to limit bass to a full range speaker system?
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I'm also in the camp that prefers to run my main speakers full range, and just use to sub to augment the bottom octave or so. Some male vocals can go down near 60hz, and are best reproduced by your main speakers so the fundamental notes plus their harmonics all come from the same place, where they stand a much better chance of sounding like a single coherent music wave. . Just my 2 cents.
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+1, @cleeds
Unless your speakers sounds distorted, I would not limit any high or low frequencies. If that’s the case, I would look at the alternate amplification (amplifier) and preamp.
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OK, thanks all. My reasoning for wanting to do this is to limit cone movement of the 2 full range drivers. Since they have no crossovers at all, they must play the delicate midrange as well as the thumpy bass. I figure if I can cut out the cone movement of the bass, the mids won't be smeared by that back and forth motion. I do use subs (Velodyne DD15's) next to each speaker. Since the main speakers are away from any walls their bass is not as strong as in a conventional room. My listening room is large as it encompasses the living room, dining room, kitchen and den all in an open floor plan. I have the subs lowpass set to 55Hz.
Yes, I also realize, the other option is to leave it alone. I'm just not sure if it's better to go down this path, or not.
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I can see why you'd want to use subwoofers with your speakers, but I'd still run the speakers full range and set the low pass on your subs really low, which is really what usually sounds best.
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Hi - the response to your question re, "intrusive to the original signal" is to use a passive ("line-level") or active, analogue xover. The passive is the easiest implementation, all you need are the electronic characteristics of the source & the load and from there it is very easy to design the high-pass you want. Many free apps online will give you the standard LCR values for your LR 24.
Why not ask Benchmark themselves?
OTOH, as you suggest, you could leave it alone. That, and enjoying the music, would be my recommendation.
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“My reasoning for wanting to do this is to limit cone movement of the 2 full range drivers”
@koestner,
Have you reached out to your speakers manufacturer? They may be able to guide you on running your speakers full range with recommended amplification. A mis-matched amplifier is never going to sound good even with HP/LP filters.
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@cleeds Wrote:
Why would you want to limit bass to a full range speaker system?
JBL explains why see here page three B460 Bass System and page four BX63 Frequency dividing Network.
Mike
@koestner Wrote:
. I'm just not sure if it's better to go down this path, or not.
Maybe this will help see here. 😎
Mike
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Have you considered a parametric equalizer?The ability to fine tune frequencies might provide the results you're looking for.https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/equalizer-in-a-hi-fi-system
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Well, there you have it. It seems I have about a snowball's chance in Hell of getting this idea to sound correct. I think I will let the Nefes play full range and let the subs give a helping hand under 50 Hz or so. My subs have all kinds of adjustments, so I can mess with them and not really worry about the critical integration of 2 different drivers at the 100Hz range. Thank you ALL!!
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This sounds like looking to create a problem where there is none. Your speakers go down to 26Hz and were designed to work that way — including the drivers that are custom made by Ref 3a — and you wanna cut them at 100Hz? And why in the world would you want your subs to be working up to 100Hz with near full-range speakers that cost $10k??? This sounds like a potential big step backwards to me, but I guess anything is at least worth trying.
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JBL explains why see here page three B460 Bass System and page four BX63 Frequency dividing Network.
That is a very different scenario because the speakers were designed to work together as a system. That’s not the same as kludging together different systems with different characteristics. You might get lucky and they’ll work well together. Or you might not be so lucky.
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Your title is correct. You shouldn't do this.
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Well, there you have it. It seems I have about a snowball's chance in Hell of getting this idea to sound correct. I think I will let the Nefes play full range and let the subs give a helping hand under 50 Hz or so. My subs have all kinds of adjustments, so I can mess with them and not really worry about the critical integration of 2 different drivers at the 100Hz range. Thank you ALL!!
Adjusting your subs makes the most sense to me, but I do understand what you were hoping to achieve. There's just never a free lunch, and the downside is likely to have more overall negative impact than positive, but in fairness that's an educated guess, not a fact.
Every room and situation is different, but I find my subs sounds best 180 out of phase, low pass filter at the lowest setting, and gain set very low so that it's barely audible except on deep bass heavy passages. YMMV, but good luck and enjoy.
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I am wondering about the same issue. Now it's very close to, as in high up, the meaning of life, on my list.
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IME, the potential benefit of using a high pass filter relates to the quality of the low bass reproduced by the main speakers, the ability of the main speakers to handle power in the low frequencies, the ability of the amplifier to supply sufficient power to run the main speakers full out, and the response of the room and susceptibility to standing waves and excitation.
A fairly good quality Marchand passive, balanced, high pass filter set around 45Hz did not improve the sound of my system, which includes stand-mounted main speakers each having two 9-inch woofers in a sealed box (acoustic suspension) design that produce solid bass to about 40 Hz. In my case, the best sound was achieved by running the main speakers full-range, and rolling in my two subs at about 45Hz.
Using a high pass filter to roll off the OPs full-range low frequency driver could possibly offer sonic benefits, if using the filter keeps the woofer in a more linear range and reduces stress on the amplifier. An appropriate roll-off point might be just a bit higher than where the speaker’s frequency curve starts to drop off, but certainly much lower than 100Hz.
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@mitch2
Your post reads like you are happy with the passive filter, but you say it did not improve the sound. Please elaborate if you prefer the Marchand or not, and is that why you are selling it on USAM? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$. Thanks.
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I went with a Marchand balanced passive high pass at 80hz because of a room/speaker placement issue. With my speakers in the best sounding position overall, I had a big bump from 50-70hz that was resistant to acoustic treatments. By rolling off below 80 and filling that with a sub located near floor level, that bump disappeared without even using eq on the sub.
Every situation is different. I spent months working on acoustic treatments that reduced the bump from 10 to 5db, which I think helped with integrating the two. The overall result is a great improvement though I expect I'll continue to experiment.
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@mashif
Good to know. What is the slope and lowpass frequency on your sub? Also, did you lose any of the "magic" with the Marchand? Specifically fine details, depth and imaging.
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@koestner
Ha - Thanks for the reminder since I had forgotten that I listed the filter - no replies yet.
The Marchand passive filter (XM446XLR-A) worked as advertised but it simply didn't lead to an audible improvement in the sound of my system. It was quiet and didn't make anything sound worse, so what I learned is that the high pass filter is not needed in my system for my speakers, amps, and room. The reasons are probably because of the power handling ability of my main speakers, the relatively high power provided by my amplifiers, and the control of the bass offered by the two subs that do not excite room resonances. My main speakers (dual 9-inch woofers/side) roll off fairly low at around 40Hz and so rolling in my subs at about 45Hz seems to work well and it sounds good without the high pass filter.
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your speakers have great low end. high pass is a waste of them imho.
if you have time and money to burn then use mini DSP between amp and preamp and dont bother unless you are good at RTA measuring.
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@knotScott , can you expound upon this?
Every room and situation is different, but I find my subs sounds best 180 out of phase,
How do you achieve this? Are you running your subs via speaker wire input from amp and one sub is hooked up + to +/- to -, and the other sub is hooked up + to -?
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@immathewj
Yes, I run the subs to the high level inputs off a speaker output from an amp. In my case, I reverse the polarity at the sub input, but some subs off it via a switch.
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My filter is 80hz, 24db slope. I can quickly bypass it by just joining the two XLR connectors and turn off the sub. I've done the comparison several times and find the imaging and balance improved with the filter and sub. And of course I can turn off the sub and the mains still sound great, if thin. So I'm comfortable that the filter does no harm.
Integrating the sub required adjusting the frequency and slope of the LPF and adjusting the phase of the sub. I played with PEQ but ended up not using it. If you are using an external amp, I would suggest some kind of DSP as well.
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Hello koestner! DBX makes a 2 way stereo/3 way mono electronic crossover (DBX223, be sure get the model with the kind of connectors/in & out plugs you prefer) and is transparent and reasonably priced. I use then in two of my 5 systems. They are a tweaker's delight, 24 db/octave and let you fiddle to your heart's delight. I agree that keeping the very low bass out of your main speakers is a good idea. I'm using Magnepan LRS and LRS+ in the systems with the DBX Xovers. My other systems use miniDSP electronic crossovers. Give each driver it's own amp. These days, good amps are not expensive. Happy listening.
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Bomer:
I had the DBX Venue 360 in the system, but found it to be annoying having to run it through my computer. It was supposed to run on an iPad also, but they never fixed the problem that arose when Apple changed their OS a while back. I also did not like the additional A-D and D-A that had to be incorporated. I have been considering the Mini DSP Studio, or the Marchand passive crossover, but after a bunch or reading it seems this whole idea is a can of worms that I would probably have wished I never opened.
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Hello, It looks like your subs have a 100 hertz high pass filter. Just run your line to the input on the DD15’s and then out to your amp. You might have to look at a manual but there is a 90 or 100 crossover switch on the back. You can at least use this to see if you like the sound or if it degrades the sound in any way.
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It looks like there is a thru output so you can do a little A=100hz or B=thru= 20 hz.
please make sure you turn your equipment off before you connect/ disconnect cables.
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If those speakers have “Thumpy” bass it’s either your room or most likely the position of the speakers. Probably they’re too close to the front and side walls.
Before you try surgery or software, I’d start with pulling them three feet from the front wall. That’s three feet from the back of speakers.
All the best.
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+1 @soix
With speakers going down to 26Hz (not including the room), I would think you would start with the subs crossing over around 30Hz and play with the gain first, and then adjust +/- 5Hz and dial in from there.
IMO phase should be set to zero as your subs are next to your speakers.
And definitely play around with speaker placement. It is amazing how much a few inches in distance in any direction and 1/2 inch more or less toe in (or none) makes.
Lastly, what connection method are you using? I don't know what Velodyne recommends for 2 channel but my experience with REL is high-level from the speaker taps works best.
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My 2 subs are VINO (Velodyne in name only) because, being Velodyne, they have both broken. Tired of repairing them, I bypassed the electronics and ran wires to just the drivers. So now they are 15" passive subs. I use a Crown 2500 for the lowpass (55Hz) and all is working fine. When I said "thumpy bass" I meant that in a good way. Like the sound from a kick drum, those frequencies are best suited to subs, not to a full-range driver. My preamp has 2 outputs (XLR and RCA) so the XLR goes to my Benchmark amp and the RCA to the Crown. Interestingly I have found that hooking the subs out of phase produces more bass than in phase. Even though the subs are close to the main speakers. Perhaps the Crown amp inverts phase, but I don't know. Everything sounds pretty nice right now, but as a hobbyist, I am always thinking of something to change.
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The only way to do it with least detriment is digitally. And even then you’ll need to carefully choose the product.
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When I had to integrate a subwoofer to a high quality desktop audio system, I had already worn out the passive alternatives. I knew it was time to get serious, so I purchased a gently used Marchand XM66 electronic crossover. I have used this with great success for the past 10 years.
It has a variable (user selectable) crossover point, and both the high pass and low pass outputs going through a 24 dB/octave circuit. It sounds utterly clean, transparent, and unaltered as compared to no crossover.
It’s a steal. Of course, you could spend 4-5X the $$ on an electronic crossover by one of the audiophile names, but I"m not sure how much better it would be than the XM66.
https://www.marchandelec.com/xm66-electronic-crossover.html
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Yes, The XM-66 is probably the highest on my list of possibilities.
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