Around 16 feet apart? Yeah, good luck with that.
Disappointed w/ Klipsch Heresy III. Now what?
I'd be very grateful for some help with a quandary.
I recently replaced my Ohm Walsh 1000 speakers with Heresy III speakers, running two-channel from a Rega Brio. I was pretty excited about the Heresy IIIs based on reviews — they were efficient, so my 35-watt amp would get the job done; they were supposed to have real punch in the low mid-range, so I could hear the upright bass clearly; they reportedly had excellent imaging; and best of all, they were supposed to sound great at low volumes. They are also indisputably beautiful, which was an important factor for my wife. (The Ohms are elegant, but you have to be an audio lover to see their beauty.)
I set them up, and . . . not so bad, pretty good. Especially loud. In fact the louder the better. Crank them up and they sing. But loud is not really an option with a new baby. So how do they sound quiet? They sound like the band is trapped in shoe box. Really in two shoe boxes because the L and R don't merge that well. The sound stage is tiny. All the detail is gone, the joy is gone. They are no fun at all. Music just seems like a bunch of noise.
But I want to believe! I want to make these speakers work. So I am faced with a quandary. I could:
1. Buy stands, a subwoofer and a tube amp, all of which people in various forums have recommended to improve the various failings I hear now.
2. Replace the Rega with something much more powerful and pull the Ohms out of the closet. (Suboptimal because it will make my wife sad because of the aforementioned perceived ugliness.)
3. Just start all over again. Different amp, different speakers.
I'd kind of prefer number 1. But I don't want to end up with a bunch of stuff designed to solve a problem and then not have that problem solved! (And I'd also just as soon avoid getting a subwoofer.)
Final note. Positioning is an intractable nightmare. It is the one thing that I can't really change, because of how our living room is layed out. It is obviously a big problem though. The living room is a big rectangle, 18 x 40 feet, and the speakers are near the corners of the 18-foot ends, on either side of a couch. I can move them around — closer or further from the couch, closer or further from the wall. But I can't raise them above the height of the couch or move them out in front or over to another wall. That discussion went nowhere!
What should I do?
I recently replaced my Ohm Walsh 1000 speakers with Heresy III speakers, running two-channel from a Rega Brio. I was pretty excited about the Heresy IIIs based on reviews — they were efficient, so my 35-watt amp would get the job done; they were supposed to have real punch in the low mid-range, so I could hear the upright bass clearly; they reportedly had excellent imaging; and best of all, they were supposed to sound great at low volumes. They are also indisputably beautiful, which was an important factor for my wife. (The Ohms are elegant, but you have to be an audio lover to see their beauty.)
I set them up, and . . . not so bad, pretty good. Especially loud. In fact the louder the better. Crank them up and they sing. But loud is not really an option with a new baby. So how do they sound quiet? They sound like the band is trapped in shoe box. Really in two shoe boxes because the L and R don't merge that well. The sound stage is tiny. All the detail is gone, the joy is gone. They are no fun at all. Music just seems like a bunch of noise.
But I want to believe! I want to make these speakers work. So I am faced with a quandary. I could:
1. Buy stands, a subwoofer and a tube amp, all of which people in various forums have recommended to improve the various failings I hear now.
2. Replace the Rega with something much more powerful and pull the Ohms out of the closet. (Suboptimal because it will make my wife sad because of the aforementioned perceived ugliness.)
3. Just start all over again. Different amp, different speakers.
I'd kind of prefer number 1. But I don't want to end up with a bunch of stuff designed to solve a problem and then not have that problem solved! (And I'd also just as soon avoid getting a subwoofer.)
Final note. Positioning is an intractable nightmare. It is the one thing that I can't really change, because of how our living room is layed out. It is obviously a big problem though. The living room is a big rectangle, 18 x 40 feet, and the speakers are near the corners of the 18-foot ends, on either side of a couch. I can move them around — closer or further from the couch, closer or further from the wall. But I can't raise them above the height of the couch or move them out in front or over to another wall. That discussion went nowhere!
What should I do?
190 responses Add your response
The best sub I've heard under 5k is the Vandersteen Sub 3. It has the same amp with an 11 band EQ built in. Roughly the same one I have built into my Quatro's. You can dial it in no matter your situation. Unlike digital EQ, you can't hear it at all. I have a friend who just got a pair and is in love with them. He brought the more expensive REL's in and he and his buddy's chose the Vandersteen and said as good as the REL was, the Vandy was just better in all aspects. Yes, I love Vandersteen's, but I also love other gear. If I needed a sub Vandersteen and REL is where I'd start and finish. There are some other good choices, but the only other one I'd look at needs 4 of them and I would never have the room for that (I have a wife who also uses the listening room ;)...ha |
https://forum.audiogon.com/users/wolf_garcia: What REL Model Subs have you &/or which Subs/Models do you believe would work well in a Heresy Home Theater setup? |
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it's fine for a moderate speaker. Ton's of great choices in that range. Horns are going to have a specific sound in the midrange. Many of us aren't in love with that, but many don't mind it or even feel it's good. Personal preferences, but even the 100k plus horns have to try to overcome this and I've yet to hear one that does. There are plenty I haven't heard at that level, but I've heard enough to know it's an issue. If yo love that, go with it and don't look back. All components have compromises in them regardless of cost. All. |
i've owned many speakers (PSB Synchrony Ones, Martin Logan Spires, PBN Montana EPS 2s, Revel F208, Sonus Faber Liutos and some high quality amplification, Simaudio i7). My friend has a pair of Heresy IIs in his apartment driven by a low priced Denon integrated. I've always been pleased and amazed with the sound of his Heresy setup, even at low volumes. They have a fantastic soundstage. Many times sounds emanate far outside the speaker. Never felt they were harsh, just very lifelike. Admittedly, have not heard them at high volume in deference to his condo neighbors. Overall, was very impressed by such a modest priced speaker. |
I usually don’t comment....we are all looking for music nirvana....within our budget.... listing to Klipsch fortes from the 80’s upgraded with alk crossovers and crites titanium diaphragms....I have $1,200 into them, acquired locally so no shipping....the upgrades to the fortes offered substantial improvements....fortes replaced Ohm model Is....which wanted to be loud to sound great. The ohms were driven by a nad 150 watts...the Klipsch did not like the nad (too bright) I moved on to a restored fisher x202b....but was always a bit disappointed in the base....on a craigslist whim, I moved on to a golden tube se 100....100 tube watts gets you close to heaven...I am using the linear tube micro z as the pre. I am fairly confident that I have the only mixture of these components....The randomness of the audio universe and more spent than I want to admit has gotten me to an amazing listening place....I will never get back what I have in the nad and the fisher....so I would part with them for the right price |
The most surprising thing to me when I removed the horns from the cabinets - for reasons unrelated to the aforementioned - was the internal wiring. It was run of the mill 10 or 12 gauge speaker wire throughout! I checked out the wiring situation in the H-IIIs. It's a name brand (can't remember it off my head) of stranded OFC. It appears to be high quality cable - as good as one's likely to find in any $2K speakers. |
@brooklynyluke, Credit for the mod goes to Mrdecibel. It involves covering the outer surfaces of the horn with constrained layer damping material, like Dynamat. I haven't performed the mod yet, but having worked with similar material in other audio applications, I'm confident that it will make a significant improvement. |
I once owned for quite a long time a pair of Klipsch Epic CF-3’s that, over the years, began to grate on me in terms of the treble from the compression horn tweeter. They were, I think, 103db sensitive so it didn’t take much to drive them and, at the time, I was employing modest amplification anyway. The “brightness” bothered me so much that I actually stuffed a pair of socks into the mouth of the horns to remove the edges. Obviously that was equally stupid and ineffective. Anyway, I stumbled upon a thread somewhere, possibly here, that addressed a resolution to the problem I experienced. Seems the person with the identical issue simply removed the horns from the cabinet then packed them with Dynamat before putting them back in. (This would be on the outside of the horn itself, not the inside.) Now I cannot relate if that remedy worked to the ends hoped for, but it made me wish I had come across it when I still had the CF-3’s just to hear for myself. Sheesh. The most surprising thing to me when I removed the horns from the cabinets - for reasons unrelated to the aforementioned - was the internal wiring. It was run of the mill 10 or 12 gauge speaker wire throughout! |
I wouldn't call the H-IIIs bright, nor would I call them warm. Pair them with a bright amp, something like an Integra AVR, and you'll want ear plugs. Pair them with tubes or a MOSFET amp and you can listen for hours without fatigue. Having owned them for about 15 months, the only notable weakness I detect, other than bass extension, is a very slight horn coloration in the midrange. It doesn't "shout" or "honk" the way some describe horns, but does add a very slight "chestiness" or thickness to vocals - at least compared to my Spendor 2/3s. I plan to damp the midhorns with some bitumen (Dynamat) sheets in the near future. |
I have to disagree with the former posts abouit horn speakers not sounding bright. I have powered both Cornwall’s and Klipschorns with different amps. They have a tendency to sound bright to me. We all hear things differently. As I suggested, you can move your speakers to their proper positions, when doing serious listening. U can put a rheostat on the midrange or get some tube amps. Do some research. I think you’ll find my opinion bears out-or not. It’s all trial and error, hopefully not much error😊 |
The above mentioned Heresy III reviews from Olsher and Tone Audio are among the few detailed reviews around, along with Steve Huff (relatively recent review) really going at it as the dude loves these things...I have said before how surprised I was with these as they’ve never been on my radar, and, of course, my success with them could partly be due to the tubey rig I use these days. Who knew? |
There are way too many things that go into matching amplification and transducers. There is no right or wrong amp to use with anything. It's 100% personal preference. What too many folks don't take into account is that not all tube amps 'sound' like tube amps. Tubes are tons faster than the faster SS devices. Audio Research amps don't sound anything like tubes of yesterday. They are very very fast and tonally outstanding. CJ, AR sound very very different now days. Both are tubes (mostly). I have owned Jadis, Aesthetix, CJ, AR, Quicksilver, Rogue, Counterpoint and many others over my lifetime. I have also owned Krell, Ayre, Levinson and a ton of others. They all have their own sound signature and they all play better in the sandbox with certain speakers. |
I think any great speaker (including the Heresy III), especially efficient ones, respond to the "first watt" principle where the quality of the amp is immediately apparent. I happen to like tube stuff, but there are countless well designed and voiced SS amps that are great sounding. Note that horns like the Heresy III versions utilize modern and relatively common titanium drivers in both the tweeter and mid horn, and they're simply rendered more efficient by horn loading. Nothing exotic or even "special" going on there. |
Brooklynluke. I realize you have to consider the family opinion and optimize your space, but nothing will make up for proper placement. Place them where they sound the best, mark that place and position them there when u want to do serious listening. Some have said they will sound good with a good quality amp, be it SS or tube, but my experience with horn speakers is they need a quality tune amp or preamp, to offset the horns. As I mentioned before, you can put a rheostat on the midrange, if that's the offender, to reduce that frequency. |
I've used various horn speakers for decades and maybe they do sound bright if you use crap to drive them, but otherwise that's simply not true. I dragged Altec A7s around years ago and those things are anything but bright…the horn in those is basically a mid-high thing. Something like the Clair Brothers JBL boxes that were around years ago could peel paint with brightness, but I think that was the sound mixer's (or a Phase Linear amp's) fault, as is excessive brightness from phased array systems these days. I currently use PA speakers with titanium driven horns (both small-ish Mackies in my home recording rig and generally larger self powered stuff when mixing live shows) that sound like whatever I want them to, and Heresy IIIs, especially once broken-in, aren't overly bright but actually clear sounding when paired with high quality gear…I use a single ended 12 watt per side tube power amp and a tube preamp with the Heresy IIIs (and 2 REL subs…you kinda need a sub with Heresy IIIs) and they sound clean as a whistle, and if I put my Schiit Loki EQ in the mix (rare, but it works swimmingly when needed) you can see exactly how they work. Although it seems like a lame cliche', the Heresy IIIs sound kind of like live music, which is the highest compliment I can pay to a speaker design. |
Horn speakers are not, by design, very bright. The Avantgarde and Klipsch horns I have used have no brightness at all. Horns are very revealing of system flaws. As the saying goes "garbage in garbage out". And remember horns magnify everything good or bad in front of them due to their high efficiency. |
Brioklynluke: Horn speakers by design, tend to be very bright. I own a set of Khorns as well as Cornwalls. At one time, I installed a rheostat on my midrange horns on my Khorns, to turn the midrange down. It worked well. I guess a good EQ, could possibly do the same thing. IMO, horn drivers perform best with tube amps. Due to their efficiency, u wouldn't need an amp with a lot of power. With conventional drivers, a good tube preamp, bolstered by a mosfet SS amp will prevail, but not necessarily with horns. Try a good quality rheostat, to turn down your midrange. They're relatively inexpensive as far as experimenting goes. Having said this, placement is critical. Make some make shift stands at ear level and try to bring them closer together. U can put painters tape on the floor to mark their spot and bring them out, when doing a serious listening session. |
The Heresy IIIs I bought are still available on Ebay for about 1500 bucks by the way (well, not MINE as I refuse to give them up…but the Nevada dude still sells the "damaged box" free shipping ones and seems to offer the best deal out there)…and mine have simply settled in nicely… around 7 feet apart and 9 feet from my earballs. I put Vibrapods under their corners and removed the butcher blocks that raised them a few inches to return them to the original "sit on the floor" design, and put thick felt "stick on" pads under the vibrapods to allow them to be micro tweaked regarding placement (sliding them around on the wood floor). Decoupled! They respond to every tube change and 2 inch movement, and have turned out to be outstanding speakers that continue to astound me. Maybe I’m easily astounded, but with some minor movement and tweaking to my 2 REL subs, my rig has never sounded better. Note that for "low volume" listening (a relative term) these things pair nicely with a Schiit Loki EQ gizmo, but otherwise respond to the dreaded Fletcher Munson curve better than some…still…ya gotta hit that curve! Also, most of this post is specifically designed to get Mapman off the dime. |
A few thoughts which might help. If you speakers are 10 feet apart and only 8 ft distant from your prime listening area that alone could account for some serious imaging and high frequency harshness issues. I would suggest that you move your chair (if possible) back to at least 10 feet from the front plane of your speakers, play with toe in if possible (including moving the axis of the speakers so that it crosses well in front of the listening position) and perhaps moving the speakers a little forward until their fronts are flush with the front of the sofa - a little closer together might not be much of an issue then. |
This is an interesting topic for me. I have been on the fence about trying Klipsch Heresy III in my second system. I run Triangle Titus and Klipsch sw-308 subwoofer there currently. Amp is Bel Canto C5i integrated. The sound is lovely. I have also used my OHM Walshes and Dynaudio monitors in this system but with only 60 w/ch and certain placement limitations I lean towards the higher efficiency Triangles, especially with the powered sub in play. I tend to listen at modest to lower volumes with this system. I like Heresy’s I have heard of other SS amplification (modest A/V receiver at dealer) but have not listened at low volume. Need to do that I suppose. For now the sound I have is most satisfying when I listen so no great rush to drop 2 grand on another pair of speakers quite yet. |
Hi! Preamp / amp combo was made by Had AudioLab (Croatia, Bjelovar city), founder -owner (deceased) Drazen Markešić. http://www.had-audiolab.com/ I think I'm the sole owner of these monoblocks. These were demo exhibits for the HI-FI fair. I have another tube amp Pointe Sima,15W A class, with which drive Palladium. So, I have two HI-FI systems. Maybe (but unlikely), one day, one system goes on sale. Palladium has a very good sound, but requires more power (4 ohms and five drivers). Heresy 3 sounds like gramophone (pure analogy) and makes me very happy :) |
Here I am :) To start the story, I'm very happy with the first results. In the last two days I listened to H3 about 12 hours long. I got up a hundred times and moved them for a few centimeters in all directions. I was looking for the best possible sound stage. Unfortunately, I do not have much room for maneuver due to the conditions. Maybe another move brings happiness. I came to the conclusion that H3 remains on the floor. So far none of the stands. I will consider it later. The couch, which goes a little in the sound field, make not visible - audible disturbances. But if I made the speakers even more forward, then the couch would be a problem. In that case, the couch would be near, very much in the sound field. As for the left side wall, I intend to put an absorber, because of Palladiuma tower speaker, because it is too close to the wall. Thank you all for listening to my sweet troubles. To be continued:) |
Hi, Heresy 3 arrived today! Thanks for sharing the pics. I would move them just forward of your tower speakers if you can. You also might consider putting an absorption panel on the left wall. You shouldn't have to worry about reflections as much with the horn drivers, but I think a wall treatment would still yield some improvement. |
I placed mine a little further apart than my last speakers and the Heresys have a huge soundstage and surprisingly good imaging. I feel part of the reason they work well in this room is because they don't produce much bass below 60hz which helps avoid room modes which are centered around 40Hz. But the bass they do produce is excellent with great pitch definition , no speaker I've owned reproduces an upright bass like they do. A sub is a must , but overdo it and it ruins their sound. It took a while to find a crossover point and slope that didnt muddy their low end. |
I always have an itch to try different speakers in my second system and I might scratch it again soon. Heresy III is a leader for next speaker up. IT would work well in my family room especially with the Klipsch sub there, 60 w/ch amp, also WAF, and something different and fun. I’ve heard them and was very pleasantly surprised. They made me a fan in a short audition. OR maybe Thiel? Harbeth? ELAC? Who knows. |
I might have said this before but I don't think the Heresy IIIs "sound" like horns really, but maybe that's just me (I use horn loaded speakers in my studio, pro mixing gigs, and have owned a lot of speakers including Altec A7s years ago…now that's horny!). I've been experimenting with placement a little, and ongoing sub integration tweaking. I read something Paul McGowan said about speaker placement where he suggested putting the speakers further apart from each other to tame possible upper bass issues, and that inspired me to do exactly that. Moved 'em about 8 inches further out and they sound simply better. Thanks Paul. |
Hi, Heresy 3 arrived today! I still did not connect them yet, because I'm waiting for them to adapt to room temperature. I just put them in the starting (desired) position. Tomorrow morning, I will put them in the drive :) The picture shows that my couch goes a little into the sound field (that's something I can not avoid, which is why I have considered the stand option). http://prntscr.com/ifp2u6 http://prntscr.com/ifp39c http://prntscr.com/ifp3i5 Tomorrow starts burning. We'll see where this leads. I'll come up with the first results. Regards |
@grinccaffe Welcome to the Forum. I had no trouble understanding your post. Some have reported improvements from using such stands, but others seem to prefer the floor risers. I use mine with the floor risers. They do lack a bit of soundstage height, but otherwise, I don't detect any shortcomings. The bass is plenty powerful within the speaker's limits. They do perform best with tubes, so you're all set in that regard. Please report back with your findings. |