@lewm Sorry to be obscure, but some were questioning @dover about the theoretical basis, so I thought there was an interest.
Not saying that it was worse than previous Technics DD. Just saying that there is no such thing as an instantaneous speed measurement in the real world. It’s all averages, or more precisely, means. And means don’t tell the whole story.
That’s the take-away. What is measured isn’t the totality of what’s there.
IMO belt drives sounds far better, but that’s just personal opinion. The theory on how that could be so, given the measurements, is upstream.
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@billwojo it is wow and flutter.
Here are the specs for the Technics 1210G DD TT
Rumble is motor noise.
Type: Direct Drive Manual Turntable
Turntable Speeds: 33-1/3, 45 and 78 rpm
Adjust Range: ±8 %, ±16 %
Starting Torque: 3.3 kg-cm
Build-up Characteristics: 0.7 s. from Standstill to 33-1/3 rpm
Wow And Flutter: 0.025 % W.R.M.S. (JIS C5521)
Rumble: 78 dB (IEC 98A weighted)
Now here are the spec's for a 1975 Thorens TD145
Specifications
Drive system: 16-pole synchronous motor with belt drive
Record speeds: 33⅓ and 45 rpm
Turntable platter: 12 -inch non-magnetic zinc alloy
Rumble : -48 dB (unweighted), -69dB (weighted)
Wow and flutter: 0.06%
Looking at these spec's you will not hear either. Like I said it is a silly argument. Also someone made a comment about changing belt, how hard is it? Not hard at all. Speed on my 47 year old turntable is dead nuts on.
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Terry, I am well aware of the assumptions we make when we speak of turntable speed and its accuracy or lack of accuracy. But if you categorically prefer BD turntables, with or especially without a dedicated motor controller, it’s not because BD turntables are more speed constant than a well designed and constructed DD turntable, in my opinion. And I assume your experience is limited to a few examples of each type, as is mine.
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@juanmanuelfangioii Do you believe that a motor upgrade, like those from Origin Live, would make noticeable improvement with a Thorens TD 145? It does seem that a belt driven table lends itself to more upgrades and refinements than a direct drive table but that may be due to my lack of knowledge.
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@goofyfoot I really do not have an opinion on the Thorens Origin motor upgrade. I have the original German 16-pole synchronous motor albeit it gas been cleaned and tweaked a bit, polished bearing....it is dead silent and over 40 years old.
If it isn't broke don't fix it.
Listening to it now and I am still amazed how these 40 year old turntables can give the modern stuff a run for their money.
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@terry9
I may have misunderstood you, but you mentioned that "there is no such thing as instantaneous speed measurement in the real world": AnalogMagik software does measure instantaneous speed. I think Fremer may use it, or possibly have some other software by which he determines the variability and stability of speed control of the turntables that he evaluates.
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@Mahler123 - time zone differences accounting for late reply. I'm not saying that the Technics is entry level. But given that you have had two pretty good turntables that didn't float your boat, I'm not sure a Technics 1500 will either and it's a very expensive way of accessing a handful of classical records not available on digital.
The reality is that digital hardware and software has improved very significantly in the last ten years, whereas analogue technology has plateaued to the extent that any improvements being made are largely at the bleeding edge of technology and price.
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How does the Denon DP-A100 compare to the Technics models and also older Denons?
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"The only thing that can possibly make noise in a DD is the spindle bearing. But guess what?? ALL belt drives and idler drives have a nearly identical spindle bearing as a DD. In reality, DD tables are 10-20 dB quieter than most all belt and idler drives. Just a fact!"
So, 1) The only thing that can possibly make noise in a DD is the spindle bearing.
2) ALL belt drives and idler drives have a nearly identical spindle bearing as a DD.
3) DD tables are 10-20 dB quieter than most all belt and idler drive.
Just a fact? Those statements make 2 large assumptions, then pirouette into a non-sequitur claiming DD turnables generate one tenth to one hundredth as much noise. Fascinating.
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"Motor noise from DD??? Must be a cheap Fisher or BSR."
Not so, cogging was a major problem in older Technics. I do not know if they fixed it. Suffice to say, I would not buy a dd tt.
Yes, tangential arms sound a lot better. Or look at Thales.
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@yoyoyaya
I agree with everything that you say. I prefer digital, and have many posts on the site detailing why, but I have deliberately refrained from recycling these comments here in the analog section asI have no wish to reignite that topic, although to some extent it is inevitable.
I do think that it’s possible—perhaps not probable- that a DD may eliminate a few of the issues that I have had with other tables, notably speed stability and bloated, diffuse bass.
I am looking at older DD tables, but some of the prices they command are getting close to the price of a new Technics. I am concerned about motor noise and the reviews of the newer Technics seem to indicate that the newer tables have vanquished that issue.
I also would like to get some use out of a couple of decent phono preamps that are sitting in my house. I tried selling them a few years ago but there wasn’t much demand, and one buyer tried to Scam me. The whole experience was so unpleasant that it put me off selling gear for the present (to be fair, when I sold the Clearaudio I made enough to buy my Melco and CA streamers, but the demand for pre amps doesn’t seem to be the same as the demand for turn tables).
And finally, I just freaking want one. I really wanted to buy a Technics back in the day, couldn’t do it, then when I reacquired an interest in vinyl they had disappeared.
When they were resurrected I wasn’t interested and wouldn’t have shelled out $18K anyway. Now they are priced more realistically and I am getting the new gear bug. Any move I make in digital at this price point will at best be a lateral, at worse be a downward move.
It’s like owning a classic car that you might just take for a spin once a month. Perhaps you have many other vehicles that can transport you more efficiently and more economically . You just want the classic car for myriad other reasons that have nothing to do with getting from point A to point B.
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Thorens are wonderful machines. I had a TD160 for about a decade (lost it in a burglary). A beautiful machine. I particularly liked the use of opposing magnets to handle anti-skate. Ingenious. But well-preserved ones are expensive now. I’d hoped to find an affordable one when I came across the Denon.
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Many years back I bought a Technics SP-10 at a garage sale. I never thought it was anything special. To each their own I guess. VPI makes a DD turntable for a mere $22,000.00 retail. I have to wonder why this table would be as expensive as it is?
https://vpiindustries.com/products/hw-40-black-edition
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There are so many really great TT out there, DB, DD....To each there own.
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@drbond
You say, "AnalogMagik software does measure instantaneous speed. I think Fremer may use it, or possibly have some other software by which he determines the variability and stability of speed control of the turntables that he evaluates."
I was speaking of fundamental physical constraints, not marketing claims. Speed is defined as displacement / time. We’ve known since Planck that the world is quantized, not infinitely smooth. Hence instantaneous speed is a theoretical concept which cannot be physically realized.
It remains only to specify how close a given measurement is to the ideal. Visible light brings constraints in terms of wavelength. Markings to denote the boundaries of the average are required - how finely are they drawn? What is the sampling rate? Each of these introduces quantization AND each of these introduces its own source of error.
That’s all. My point is simply, "How coarse are those averages, and even if they were analyzed completely, what can those averages tell us?" I suspect that our ears/brains, the result of a billion years of evolution (with survival at stake), tell us more.
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@mahler123, I've owned a number of classic cars, so I get what you are saying. A few further comments... The new Technics designs are much better than the old "disco" 1200. As you already have a phono stage/s, I think its worth going for the SL1210GR. Regarding the digital comparison, I suspect you will like it's pitch stability and bass control compared to comparably priced belt driven designs. The turntable is superb in terms of its fit and finish and ergonomically, it's delightful to use. I previously owned a 1200G which replaced an SME 20. The SME was more neutral tonally but the Technics was more interesting to listen to. It has since been replaced by a Clearaudio - but it's an Innovation with professional PSU and Universal arm. That combination is in a different league to the Concept - as it should be at the price - and combines the best qualities of the SME and the Technics.
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Of course anyone who knows nows there are good & bad examples of just about every turntable design in just about all price ranges. This goes for tonearms too but maybe not so much for cartridges. Similar to loudspeakers (not coincidentally), there are a few really good "buys' here & there at lower prices but generally, good, full range sound & realistic volume levels (for speakers) is going to cost you.
I used Technics turntables eons ago when I worked in the pro sound industry, sounded pretty good, well made, pretty much set & forget. For my own systems , I've always had good belt drive units from Thorens, VPI, SOTA (w/ a Souther Linear Arm - a bear to set up but did sound good) to my current Basis 2500 w/ their Vector 4 arm. I've had it for 20 years & it sounds as good today as it did new which is VERY good w/only one belt change & 2 new good moving coil cartridges. I agree w/ others here than a good phono amp is required to get the most out of your turntable.
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So I just bought the 1500 from Music Direct. I live in Chicago so I will pick it up probably next weekend, as I will take advantage of proximity to avoid the potential ravages of the shipping company and the rapacious Porch Pirates. This will give me a chance to acquire a few more lps as well. I upgraded the cartridge to Ortofon 2M Blue on the basis of suggestions here.
The phono preamp will probably be superfluous but I haven’t used my two preamps for several years and although they seem to fire up when plugged in, I just prefer the security of knowing that I can actually play a record the day I set it up and don’t have delayed gratification issues.
This has really been educational. I learned a lot and there are some interesting and knowledgeable posters here that I don’t tend to see in the other Forums on Agon that I frequent. I will post back in a few weeks with impressions.
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@mahler123
Congratulations on fulfilling a longtime desire.The Technics 1500 is a nice table and I'm sure you will get a lot of enjoyment from it and from hunting for those hard to find albums.
Enjoy! That's what it is all about!
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Nice vintage DD deck to consider also is the Sony ps-x50 (60 and 70 also, with rising price of course). It has the legendary PUA-7 tonearm. I own one and love it.
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I listen to a lot of records and have only vintage DD. Three of them. All Denon. 55F with Unitrac and DL301; DP47 with Grado Sonata and Stanton 881s; and DP59 with DL301 mkii. I doubt I will change although I did think a VPI was equal or a tad better but at what cost an inconvenience and finickiness. Have tried Music Hall 5.1 (years ago), Rega P6, Mofi Ultradeck and found none of them as good as the 47 let alone the 55. I did have a Technics about 15 years ago. Was not impressed. Although I guess the new ones are much better. If you can find a used vintage Denon in good shape for half the price of a new Technics 1500 then consider it. I got all mine before turntable inflation. But considering how much better they were than new belt ones they may still be a deal. If you have 8k for a Basis or the space and patience for a VPI, maybe you will come ahead sonically. But at midfi you won't do better than a used Denon DP, the better vintage models.
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@snilf I've been modifying my TD145 MK1. It's a dedicated mono table. I just need to buy and install an Origin Live tonearm and an EMT mono cartridge and then I'm done. Right now I have the original but upgraded TP-16 and an AT 33 Mono Anniversary cartridge. I have to admit certain pressings sound very good but the end goal should smoke what I have now.
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I second @blisshifi's recommendation: Vintage Kenwood KD 500s are good, affordable DD turntables. Mine has a Fidelity Research FR 54 tonearm and an Adcom HC/E cartridge on it and it is one of the more musical combos I own. Not everyone appreciates the composite plinth's look, but they do sound great!
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Congratulations, Mahler123. Really looking forward to your listening impressions when you get the deck - and the stylus upgrade is a good move.
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and a Clearaudio Concept which was boring as hell.
what did Clearaudio have to define it as "boring"?
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I have to wonder why this table would be as expensive as it is?
simple .... because it is not a big company like Japanese factory were (Sony, Technics, Yamaha, Jvc etc.etc.) to design a DD engine costs a lot in research and development; furthermore VPI will never sell as many DD turntables as the Japanese companies have sold which consequently the cost is passed on to the few pieces that VPI has produced and will sell.
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Did you have the TT-PSU with the Rega P5? It was an option on that model (great one - I used to own, discontinued a while back) that should eliminate any speed variations that are noticeable to the human ear. The PSU is standard on the P6 on up I believe.
They take care of any speed issues, and if you are really anal, they are now adjustable down to a miniscule level (I think .1%), if you want to do so using a strobe. My dealer said it is almost impossible to tell the difference of a minor adjustment and they come out of the box right on the money. Also, belts last an incredibly long time and now most come with 2 belts as part of the design to make them even more stable and long lasting.
I like Rega's simplicity, sound, value and incredible arms for the buck. Anybody else out there give a lifetime guarantee? I have a P8 and think that is the sweet spot for value in their line, and they're probably the only company with a range from the lowest price point to the highest. Naiad is $40K and supposedly unreal.
Anybody have or heard one of them?
The only issue with Rega is you have to make sure to minimize vibrations, especially from a suspended floor. That's why they sell wall mounted shelves. I have a Townshend Seismic Platform that was a huge improvement (and I use a wall shelf for double vibration elimination).
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I had the TTU. $400 wasted. I used it from day one. It broke I took it back to the dealer and they couldnt fix it even though it was under warranty. It sounded the same with and without.
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I think that for a few hundred dollars more it would be better to get the Technics SL 1200GR with the cartridge of your preference and you'll be done. BUT there's a few upgrades that you could (if wanted) to bring it to almost the Sl1200G level.
You can6go wrong with Technics at that level. Plus is more modern, and better overall from the ones of the past.
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If the TTPSU sounded the same with and without then it was probably spinning at the correct speed. If it broke (can't see how that could happen since it is a box with no moving parts, but maybe something internal failed?),Rega would replace it. You could even call their US location - they are very responsive- they pick up the phone!
In any case, the market for Regas is strong for a reason. When I sold my P5, I got $300 for the PSU! I sold it separately since I had previously upgraded the arm and sold the table and PSU individually separately. Sorry you don't like them, maybe you didn't have it properly isolated.
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@sokogear
With all due respect, been there, done that, about a decade ago. Details a bit fuzzy
now. There was a (red?) status light that would go on with every use, stopped going on. I took it out of the system. As previously mentioned, this didn’t change the speed instability issues one iota, which led me to conclude the whole product was either a hoax or else that it was broken from day one. I took it to the dealer (Holm Audio, Woodridge Illinois). Over the succeeding weeks they told me they had multiple calls with Rega. Keep in mind that it was still under warranty. Rega refused to accept the item back, basically claiming that it was impossible that it could be defective. I filed a complaint with the Consumer Protection Agency and the Better Business Bureau.
They then took it back, returned it to me 6 months later (and multiple calls) unchanged. Status light still didn’t work, table sounded no different with it plugged in, but guess what...it was no longer under warranty! Rega offered to sell me a new one at a $25 dollar discount as their "final offer" settlement. I declined their generosity.
It also made me wonder..how bad is the speed stability, and the feedback that they must get about it from consumers, if they had to invent an entirely new product to correct a flaw which shouldn't have been there in the first place?
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@mahler123 - wow - what a bad experience. I don't blame you for bad mouthing Rega. I would too. Maybe it was a problem with the US distributor because now (for as long as I can remember) they warranty the products for life (except for accidental damage or normal wear and tear for things like the belt).
They did change the PSU, because the one I have is different than the one I had with the P5. They changed the wiring plugs so it doesn't dislodge as easily when you bump into it. Just like they beefed up the wiring from the table to the phono stage. They continually improve their products. The best thing about Rega is their arms - hard to beat them for more than twice the price, and since they are included with the tables, it makes them a bargain. But not if they don't treat you right.
I haven't heard many complaints about them (really any), and my dealer is VERY objective - kind of a turntable geek (builds and modifies them) and he likes them a lot - for over 30 years.
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They also have a different PSU for the P10. maybe because it has a different platter and beefier bearing.
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@sokogear I can't understand why most Rega owners wouldn't opt for Origin Live tonearms. OL turned the Rega on its head and is considered a bargain.
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They also have a different PSU for the P10. maybe because it has a different platter and beefier bearing.
With the P9/10 the power supply is hand tuned to match the specific motor that it is going to drive. In other words the power supply and motor are a matched pair in the P10.
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@dover - there is no P9.
@goofyfoot - Rega owners get the tonearm as part of the turntable. Also, Live Origin seems to have very few dealers in the US, and I would want support in the installation and an assurance of compatibility if I were to get a table that doesn't come with an arm like a SOTA or JE Michell which I've heard good things about, which by the way, both of them offer Rega arms already installed on their tables.
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@sokogear And the tonearm is the best part of the Rega table? I’m not that well versed in Rega tables but that doesn’t seem too encouraging. People rave about Rega tables but I don’t hear praise about the Rega tonearm by itself so there is something that I’m not getting.
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@sokogear
By P9 I mean the old RP9/Rega 9 - I thought you would have known that.
The point was that the top Rega TT's have the power supply tuned/optimised to the actual motor used in that unit.
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@sokogear I can't understand why most Rega owners wouldn't opt for Origin Live tonearms. OL turned the Rega on its head and is considered a bargain.
I can, I have seen piles of OL tonearms at the Rega factory with stuffed bearings.
The venerable Rega RB300 and its successors are probably one the highest selling tonearms to the DIY community.
The top Rega arms are significantly better. The reason you don't see them separately much is that most Rega buyers mostly buy a complete package.
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@dover So your saying that the Rega arms are built better than the OL arms. I've been told differently by a dealer of both brands but I wouldn't rule it out. I doubt either tonearms are built like an SME, Triplaner, and many others at that level.
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I believe one of the things that should be recognized here is whether a vintage table would be preferable to a modern table. Micro-Seiki made some great DD tables but many believe the newer tables to be better. I'd say decide for yourself as either is just a preference.
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@goofyfoot
Their early arms were poor - modified Regas.
I haven't seen their latest top arms but they use a different principle with the main bearings. As I understand the OL bearings are "loose" and rely on stylus drag to lock in. Roksan used a similar principle with their Artemiz.
The top Rega arms use traditional gimbal bearings are handbuilt and take many man hours - each part is "blueprinted" and triple checked before during and after assembly.
This is not unique - most of the great arms Breuer, Sumiko MDC800 for example were great, not because of unique design, but because they were hand assembled by a superior artisan. both arms I mentioned were only ever made by 1 person.
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I agree with @dover - when I had my P5, I first upgraded the arm from the RB700 to the one on the P8 - the RB880 (it wasn't available by itself, but my dealer took one off the new P8 for me and sold that table to someone else who wanted the new P8 - the P10 wasn't out yet, and he wanted the best Rega arm at that point, which was the RB1000). Since then, the P10 came out with the flagship arm (other than the cost no object Naiad), the RB3000 (not sure why they skipped the 2000-ask the Marketing guys). I was thinking of upgrading to that arm, but was told if my table was properly isolated, it wasn't worth the premium.
The arm upgrade from the RB700 to the RB880 was a shocking improvement. A while later, I decided to urge the table itself to the P8 (I try to not spend big bucks all at once) and to be honest, the improvement in the table was not nearly as much as the arm. Mainly it was better wiring and dust cover and sound to some degree.
So yeah, the Rega arms are a great value (never had one below the RB700), but I know the early ones were legendary and IMHO anyone with a Rega table who upgrades to a non-Rega arm is nuts.
And yeah, I am sure SME and Graham arms and some high end Origin Lives are better, but at a much higher cost.
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The Rega has been OEM for many decks and has formed the basis of: Townshend; Origin Live; Audio Note; Funk Firm; Audiomods and I’m sure others too. It’s for good reason - a fundamentally excellent design where the economies of scale bring about high manufacturing quality - like current IKEA kitchens - not the last word by any means but fundamentally very consistent build due to the fact when you manufacture in large numbers you simply can’t get away with mistakes and flaws. I am told they don’t go with Linns for some reason though.
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@dover The OL's use gimbal bearings. OL incorporates a floating bearing design but I don't believe they're loose. My thought is that one would have to do a side by side comparison to determine which arms sounds better. I'd expect to see comparisons of Rega and OL reviewed online but oddly I cannot find any. The Rega price tag is enticing.
Out of curiosity, are there certain stereo and/or mono cartridge that match up especially well with the Rega arms?
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