Recommend you demo the Waversa DAC3c. Build quality is great and I it has a built in streamer. I listened to it and it sounded really good in my system. However, I ultimately went with a Emm Labs DAC2X V2 which I found second hand for a good price. Emm Labs sounds better to me but it is also much more expensive (new).
DAC recommendation in 5 to 10K range
I recently get to the point that I want to try a new DAC in $5 to $10K range and would like to know if there are recommendations I should try and audition.
My current DAC is a Denafrips Terminator, to me, Terminator is an overall fun DAC that provide good clarity, energy, and scale. It has strong macrodynamic focus with good impact and punch, as well as solid resolving power and texture, but I feel drawback is lacking micro dynamic capability, tonality is not organic, neither is presentation, treble is not that refined, and can sometimes get too hot and gritty. What I hope in my next DAC is a balanced DAC that lean a bit more toward the relaxed and slightly sweeter smoother side of things, great organicness, great placement accuracy and depth in overall stage, great coherency and liquidity, as well as having great impact and punch.
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The just released Lumin T3 should be in this mix, it uses Lumin’s latest processing, uses the X-1 analog output stage, and incorporates Leedh volume control so it can be effectively used without a preamp. The Lumin P-1 also fits into this category perhaps equalling the X-1 performance and adding ST Optical input, HDMI, and just receiving a stellar review in TAS. |
@auroravengeance I tried the wavelight last year. The preamp section is hard to use since you have to use a phone or tablet app to control the volume. The SPL looks interesting. |
@phastm3 The Teac 701N is pretty good, though at this price point you might want to give Rockna Wavelight a listen too because it has an analog preamp too. I've heard good things too about SPL Director MK2 which is also at this price point. I plan to drop by the showroom sometimes next week to audition SPL stuff, will report my finding on the DAC as well. |
@auroravengeance im thinking about trying the Teac 701n because it has the analog preamp. I’m using an Aries G2 now, but I plan on selling it. I think the Teac with the Teac external clock might be worth a try |
I added a Denafrips Gaia DDC to my Terminator (original with DSP upgrade) and used an i2S connection between the Gaia and DAC. I was very surprised by the improvement. More dynamic, smoother sounding, and improved sound stage. I've since upgraded to a Terminator Plus which I'm very happy with, but just adding the Gaia to the original Terminator was a very noticeable improvement. |
Well, it's less than one third the price of the Weiss, why not just get another one for a secondary setup? I had the pleasure of doing an A/B comparison of Sonnet Morpheus and the Lab12 DAC1 because they were carried by the same dealer, and it was not even funny how the DAC1 was superior to Morpheus in every way. I also don't understand how that reviewer from Alpha Audio came to the conclusion these two sounded similar, because the Morpheus was clearly a lot brighter and more intense to listen to, whereas the DAC1 was simply just so much more easier to listen at louder volume but without sacrificing speed and liveliness. The soundstage for DAC1 was also clearly wider and the bass quality was significantly better. I think I have reached my end-game DAC. Maybe if I strike lottery I might consider listening to DCS Vivaldi or MSB Reference, but I struggle to think how other DAC could get much better than the Lab12.
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I have not heard the Terminator yet, but I have heard its clone Musician Aquarius (they are basically the same company), and the sound was what you have described. I have just concluded a one month search for a new DAC and tried the following: - Musician Aquarius |
jl1ny, Funny how small changes can cause some sweet sound, just a little money and time to find a better solution. If you want to upgrade that USB cable, there are some very good "reasonably" priced cables that will improve your sound even further. Look at eBay for Supra USB cables, just make sure that you are buying from "Zendada" who is an official distributor.....Wireworld USB cables are also excellent. Both options can be had for under $100 depending on the length you require. |
Join this community, it’s for me the most dedicated and professional forum you can find on this topic. Also checkout this great DAC comparison by a well-known forum member: Short High End DAC Comparison, PT.2 – Sonvs Apparatvs (sonusapparatus.com) You will get a lot of detailed help, from people seriously testing & most important OWNING DAC’s (not just referring to Youtubers) for a wide range (every DAC/DSP above €25k makes technically no sense besides owning certain brand...). I was on the DAC race the last 10 months and than joined them, lot’s of very useful insights!
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@elan120 You’re on a great track to consider T+A. In full disclosure, I am a new authorized dealer for T+A, but I do have experience with dozens of DACs over the years before I became a dealer a few months ago. Most recently in the last year, I compared a number of DACs, including a fully modded DirectStream (upgraded transformers, linear power supply, etc), a Lampizator Baltic 3, Mola Mola Tambaqui, and the $38,500 T+A SDV-3100HV amongst a few just this last year. I would pick the T+A DAC 200 over the DirectStream, Lampizator, and Mola Mola. The DAC 200 will has more body and musicality than the DirectStream or Mola Mola. It also has an incredible noise floor and is not rounded at the frequency extremes like the Lampizator (and that was after putting $1000 of tubes in the Baltic 3 to try to get the best out of it). For its price range, I can think of no better DAC. The Mola Mola is very good, albeit out of your price range unless you find it used, but it is a much more analytical DAC, so it will depend on your system synergy and listening preferences. |
My system has the PS Audio DirectStream DAC which is great, although they have made it clear that there are no more software upgrades in the pipe. It didn’t really wow me until I paired it with their preamp BHK signature which I probably wouldn’t have bought except for the the pre-pro bypassing, which it handles remarkably well. My system came to life after I bought the BHK preamp, honestly. |
@Bigby Completely agree! I was auditioning multiple new DACs to replace my PSAudio Directstream when I decided to go with both the Edcor transformer upgrade and the JKRichards Analog Board replacement. |
Wow...lots of good suggestions. I don't think I can audition them all, but certainly will check into them further.
@gkr7007 , I do have a limitation in shelf height, the maximum height I can arrange is around 22cm or 8.5 inches, in talking to Lukasz, he suggest I look into an Amber 4 with "hot-rodded" tube section, that will perform very close to a Baltic 3, and this will likely be the one I will try if I end up heading this direction.
Meanwhile, T+A is very high on my list also.
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+1 on the Meitner MA3 I moved from a PS Directstream Sr which is still Class A in Stereophile The MA3 is a DAC/Streamer/Pre and a Roon Ready/Roon Endpoint device with full MQA unfolding. It has a great tonal balance and a deep/wide soundstage. Excellent separation of instruments. A very non fatiguing DAC with a smooth top end. Ed Meitner (also of EMM Labs) is a legend in the industry and this DAC has tons of proprietary technology. One unforeseen benefit for those who have optimized their network with the Uptone Ether Regen or other switch, Fiber Modules, Clocks etc. The MA3 seems to address the Jitter/Noise issues these devices are attempting to solve. There is very little difference between a direct ethernet connection to the DAC vs my normal Sonore OM>ER>AD Clock path. Adding in the power supplies (Farad) and cabling this is $5k of equipment the MA3 appears to make obsolete. With the Direcstream this equipment made a huge difference
MA3 can be bought in the $7-8K range
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There’s a Mojo Audio Mystique V3 that rarely comes up for sale on USAM now that does everything you’ve said you’re looking for. Read the seller’s comments and reviews as this could potentially save you thousands of $$$ and provide you with exactly what you’re looking for… https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649868831-mojo-audio-mystique-v3-balanced-dac/ And if for some reason it doesn’t blow you away you can turn around and sell it for likely little/no loss. FWIW. |
@metaldetektor , Thank you for the suggestion, and I have heard good inputs from many sources about Mola Mola Tambaqui, check into used market is a good idea. |
There are a LOT of DACs in this price range. I will say that based on my testing there is a big difference in performance between between the ~$5k DACs can ~$10k DACs.
you are effectively trading off detail for soundstage. The higher you go, the less compromise you find. This is not strictly linear and there are amazing values, particularly in single ended devices. Also, each has a tonal signature and a level of warmth vs brightness that should be considered. From your description, there are a ton of products that might meet your needs. The question is exactly where you are going to draw the line in terms of sweetness, control, etc… There are a ton of great suggestions here and I would recommend reading up on the brands mentioned and a few others. Then, you probably need to arrange a demo of one of them that you think will work. i would definitely look at: Chord - though this is a brighter sound profile but no one delivers a better image between the speakers in this price range and amazing detail. Image width is a challenge. Look at the Dave used or the TT2 and possibly MScaler Bricasti - dead neutral, good detail but not reference level (Dave and Weiss are more detailed) with amazing staging. M1 SE is a consumer version of their Studio DAC. Best with network card. M3 is also available in the range and is very good. Most M3 owners move on to M1 eventually. weiss 501/502 - Also a pro company that delivers amazing detail with strong imaging and has a killer feature set. Can be a tough brighter but can be modded with DSPs. On board renderer is superb. Jadis JS2 - I am running JS1 now. It is neutral yet sweet and musical. The JS2 is tonally supposed to be similar with a little less in terms of dynamics because of the less sexy power supply Rockna Wavedream Edition - this is an R2R which is not terribly important. The Wavedream is supremely neutral. The sound is difficult to describe because it is so neutral. Best via I2S but USB input is good. Meitner MA3 - see the review that just broke in Stereophile. T+A - I believe they have like an $8k DAC that is supposed to be stellar and T+ A is optimized for USB. A lot of these other units perform best via synchronous connections Aqua - known for having a warmer sound profile. Lots of people love this line. Mola Mola - that Tambaqui used will be in this range. It is unique. Not everyone loves it (it can be had used) but lots do. It is very natural and very resolving. I have a LONG thread reviewing DACs elsewhere called DAC Shootout Starts this Weekend. You will see I am a dealer for Chord, Bricasti, Rockna, Weiss and it seems very likely, Jadis. I have no affiliation with Aqua, Meitner, Mola Mola or T+A.
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@tahsin1022 Please show me a review where someone prefers the terminator plus over the May KTE. Not being snarky, I would love to see one because I have not yet come across such. Thank you. @elan120 This is one of the best DAC reviewers I've found. He reviewed many of the DACs mentioned in this thread in a way that you will not see anywhere else and with actual music samples demonstrating, yes demonstrating the differences between them. He did like the Terminator Plus, but at the end of the day, the May KTE remains his reference piece. |
+1 @mark360 I've heard the Lector gear also at Deja Vu also excellent sounding Dacs. |
Have you checked out the Denafrips Terminator Plus? Its the bigger brother of Terminator 2 and gets amazing reviews all around. Beats out Holo May KTE
https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/spdif-dac-reviews/denafrips-terminator-plus/ |
(At the risk of a repost - think I accidentally deleted my post, before it actually posted) You may want to look into a used Mola Mola Tambaqui. Many will tell you there’s a trade-off between having a fluid/musical/don’t-worry-lose-yourself presentation, and a higher resolution, truer-to-the-recording presentation. Bit of an oversimplification, for my money the most musical presentations are from systems that have “true” high resolution (you can hear deeply into the recording but the sound isn’t etched with artificial contrast, and there’s not distracting over emphasis on certain aspects — everything is balanced). I’ve found that the Tambaqui achieves that balance really well, across different systems and rooms, it’s got very high yet natural resolution, significantly more present dynamics than the R2R digital I’ve owned, and yet allows me to forget the system and just enjoy myself. It’s not a universally “relaxing” presentation, though - relaxing recordings are relaxing, and adrenaline-pumping music will pump your adrenaline.
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I am very happy with the PS Audio DirectStream DAC. I took advantage of the try-at-home time to evaluate it against some other DACs like the Benchmark DAC 3 and pro-ject DAC which I was previously using. I did not compare it to the May or terminator DACs since there was no local dealer or way to try those out. I was looking for a new DAC instead of a used DAC to get the latest technology. I like the ability to get software updates to change/improve the DAC in the future. |
Get a used PS audio DirectStream DAC and have the EDCOR XS4400 transformers installed by a local electronics shop. It should be well under $5k. Or, if you can wait, a new version of the DAC called the DriectStream MK II will soon be released by PS Audio. Here is a link to some information on the transformer upgrade. |
Elan, I don't have the resources for the Terminator, but I do have a Denafrips Pontus II DAC. When I intially hooked it up to my old system using unbalanced Coax (no need to get into that), I too found the impact (attack) to be too laid back, soundstage was great width wise but not deep, and the highs were too laid back, a little sibilant, and treble to be slightly "veiled". I am using Buchardt Audio S400 MkII bookshelf speakers. Since I was upgrading all of my components, I added a Denafrips Hades Pre-Amp and Thallo amplifier.....all of which are true balanced components. I hooked up the Pontus II to Hades Pre-Amp, and Hades Pre-Amp to Thallo amplifier with XLR balanced cables from Morrow Audio MA4 XLR cables....with 20 day burn in. I also swapped in Supra ethernet cables for the input to my Bluesound Node (3rd generation), and Supra USB from the Node to the Pontus II DAC. Now since I changed so many components there, I am unsure which componenst/cables made the most difference......but that fixed most most of my issues. The attack was improved, highs were more detailed and I feel like the "veil" has been removed, and the soundstage was wider and now deeper than with my previous set up. Also separation were improved. I am going to reverse engineer to find out which made the greatest difference, but I assume using the Morrow XLR cables, using a Denafrips balanced stack connected via XLR, and the addition of the Supra cables all had a combined effect in the sound improvement. |
@jgoldrick , Thank you for the two links and your simplified steps. I didn't know about rePhase, with that, I think I am ready. I placed the order for UMIK-1 and will see how things go when it is delivered. |
@izjjzi , Thank you for your detailed input. I have direct experience with Holo DAC, but not the May, and I do plan to check it out. |
There's a ton on stuff on google. I have found for me not to mess too much with th e results the software comes up with. I do the measurements, set the parameters in REW, set the low and high freq rolloff. Then export to rePhase. In rePhase, I check the phase, which is usually fine if I don't mess around in REW and don't change the amplitudes in rePhase.. Then I create the filters. Import to hqPlayer. |
@elan120 Do yourself a favor and try to hear the Holo May KTE. Search YouTube for reviews. You will find head to head commentary on most of what has been suggested here. I have heard the MSB Discrete as well and it is decent but for me it was not as good as the May. It came close when you add the optional power supply, but that will put you north of your max price. Also had the X1 head to head in my home and it decently images but is far from an analogue sound. We found it sterile and far less engaging in comparison despite the separate power supply. Save yourself 5k and purchase decent cabling. I promise you will be as shocked as we were. The best part is that I think (at least the last I knew) there are no Holo dealers, point being you will find many "popular" brands suggested here because many have a stake in the game. I am NOT accusing anyone in this thread of this. It is only a note of caution based on my year here. Regarding the ALL CAPS post in this thread... my comment is that I have heard the Aqua La Scala and it was one of the best for the price, but I still preferred the May. I have not heard the lavoice. There are diamonds in the rough and the May is hands down one of them. I am only taking my time to write this because it took me a year to select a DAC and I had 20k to spend on one. To date I only spent 1/3 of my budget for my entire system and if I had blindly went with the majority of suggestions here would have spent about 1/3 more than my total budget. I immersed myself in hifi for a year and almost drown. Multiple trips to dealers, countless reviews, and an amazing local audiophile circle of new friends who have the means and connections to cycle through tons of high end gear. My posts no longer come from that of a newbie. Sure, it has only been a year but I will argue and back everything I write with hands on experience. Did I want to spend money on a "remote" product? Absolutely not, but after research and the opportunity to hear it at a friend's house against a few others I was sold - jaw on the floor for the price, sold. I ask anyone here with suggestions if they have experience with the May KTE vs their recommendation? I would love to know and compare notes. Lastly, when you get to 5k and points north, many pieces will sound really good. It comes down to system synergy and audible preference. I have often found differences subtle, but those subtleties stack over long listening sessions. Point being that I recommend spending as much time as you can with each and try to avoid quick back and forth comparisons. Best of luck! |
