D'agostino amplifiers: where's the beef?

D’Ag is the new B & O. 

Jeff Rowland coming out with new gear. There r other options then the dagastino..Boulder 866...pilium...listen first nyc . From what I heard pilius..rhapsody audio is stellar for 29k 39k. Bob rhapsody sent pilium to mahico to break in his M9...maybe worth a listen 

I have about $25k in my system and that seems to be at the low end to a lot of forum members here but sounds crazy to most of my family and friends....
In life it’s all about priorities, most don’t blink an eye when spending that kind of money on a Harley right?
I always loved Dan D’Ag components and if somehow I can afford to slip into a used one I can afford you bet I’ll run not walk to buy it!

This is a two part interview with Dan D’Agostino. He seems very humble and down to earth! Just one of the guys type of genius, I don’t detect and type of snobbery in at all!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdgRWg8OrQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyrWxKuPYRs

Excellent points rocray. The answer is we all have flaws, and this hobby, along with the anonymity of online posting, brings out the inherent nastiness of some. Happiness isn’t about having money and things, but it is in mental attitude, and enjoying whatever you have. I was delighted to see your post made that point already.

I own M400s (also a KSA-250 in the 90’s), not from being rich, but from working all my life and saving, and making certain decisions (if the OP thinks they lack heft, he should try lifting one!). Honestly, I never cared for their appearance; it was the sound. The milled chassis and copper heatsinks are functional!

But if I truly had money, I’d take a look at those beefy Relentless amps that take a crane to position. There’s always something beyond our means, for most of us. Also, Dan D’Agostino and his organization are fine people.

 If I had such disposable income,you can bet your bippy I would enjoy the finer things in life.  I am not a super wealthy person,but I still try to enjoy the finer things that ARE within my reach.  If someone can afford $65K amps,why not? Why does this seem to offend people?  In life, there are winners,losers,and everything in between.  Everyone doesn’t get a participation award.  

mommy mommy make it stop... 

Tsunami Coming! 

"Where’s the beef?"

DDMAS-Dan-DAgostino-with-Relentless.jpeg (919×1280) (oracleoftime.com)

PS - if you’re gonna whine about price, find another hobby. These people have to run a company with specialty products. They didn’t choose the easy route by any stretch. The comments of some above are so idiotic I don’t know why they’re even members here.

Consider the cost beyond the constraints of 'practical value.' Think of them as 'functional art', and as with a piece of fine wall-art or metal sculpture, attribute part of their monetary cost to aesthetic value.
To a small group of discerning owners their capacity to elicit emotional pleasure comes from the eyes as well as the ears. (Not to forget the bragging rights they afford in a capitalist society.)

The best sounding amplifiers have one or two tubes or transistors per channel.

No single person or company has ever been able to beat that simple equation.

@bobbydd

Couldn't agree with you more. To me it's the same issue I have with the Ayre MX-R Twenty amps, most of the weight and cost seems to be in the aluminum casing.  

I don’t look at it that way at all. When you’re  happy with a product, you definitely don’t have to convince anyone it is a great product. I’ve owned a lot of hi dollar gear. I’ve even owned Chord and Jeff Rowland top of the line monoblock amplifiers. That’s jewelry within itself. I just Prefer tube and that’s why I currently own Audio Research Reference 250SE. Like I said, it’s a choice. Pick what you like but never feel you have to convince one to buy a product. 

My experience with Dag has been exceptional. Dan took the phone on a call I made about a small issue. He was pure gentleman and fixed the situation immediately. Likewise the staff is very responsive and nice to deal with.
All that said I love his products visually and sonically. As stated above it’s expensive because he can charge what he wants. He’s earned it. No one has to buy his gear.  I doubt, as previously stated by another poster, that all Dag buyers are foolish. I’m pretty comfortable with my judgement, feeling not the least bit challenged. Envy is at play here. The new US pastime. Beat up the well to do. 

The question of the day is how does it stack up to tube amplifiers. Example;
- Audio Research Reference 250SE
- Audio Research Reference M160
- VTL Wotan
- Cary Audio CAD805 AR or RS
- Jadis various monoblock 
- McIntosh MC2301 or MC901 (Hybrid)
etc.
That’s the test of the day or what you may prefer in sound. I remembered a Stereophile article with Cary Audio CAD805 AE compared to Krell KSA-300S.
check it out. You can focus on specs or how it sound in your listening environment. The choice is yours.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/cary-audio-design-cad-805-monoblock-power-amplifier-sam-tellig-a...

Most SS gear has a relatively low design bar and I do like the D'Agostino esthetic. I also like simple tube amps as they also often have a "steam punk" vibe like the adorable Dennis Had Firebottle HO I currently prefer. The only reason D'Ag charges what they do is because they can...performance is relative and I seriously doubt these things would make me happier than my Had amp which is a hand assembled masterpiece at a tiny fraction of the cost of a D'Ag.

This is a topic that csn last for a longggg time....obviously we as humans are. We as humans  are much about what looks good. For the money....What sound good or better?? 

If you listen to Pass, Luxman, Ayre and D'Agostino you'll definitely come away with a strong preference. :-)

I have to say that if you strongly like Pass, you'll probably dislike the others and vice versa.  In the case of Pass, speaker matching is really important so don't try to listen in the store to speakers different than your own.

Best,
E

Consider a Pass labs class A amp and never look back. The only unfortunate side effect would be that your A/C bill may shoot up in the summer but very few others come close. 

I HAVE followed the changes over the years at Krell and one simple fact remains like it or not: I have seen more cosmetic redesigns of their equipment than just about anyone else, sound quality aside.  I even owned an FPB300 Amp and it threw a big 3D stage and was very clean sounding, well made, and had a classic design without a lot of neato
meters or other things I didn't want or need. Plus the amp never gave me any trouble at all. But I upgraded to Rowland-12 mono blocks which sounded a bit "smoother", looked all shiny etc. but they had defective switch-mode power supplies. After sending them back twice Jeff redesigned the power supplies altogether for free of course.It was a bad experience. Krell in the meanwhile kept changing their look over and over again. When the D'Agostino gear came out I hated it immediately because I knew a lot of money went into the external design, which does not make it a better product. I can't tell anyone else what to buy, but solid-state amps should deliver the best sound possible for the money. Even Pass labs had Aleph amps which were Plain-Jane but sounded great to most people that heard them. But Now I don't need a meter on the front- just an LED and a power switch. Of course they have a well earned reputation for sound. But if you need a meter a Pioneer receiver will offer plenty of moving needles, and blinking colored lights as well. 

Lastly, of course it boils down to whether you can afford the equipment in the first place.

So is it first or last?

+1 to mg012
Lastly, of course it boils down to whether you can afford the equipment in the first place.   Buy the best you can afford and enjoy it.  


But make sure it is not Yamaha , denon , or other toys 😉

A good friend of mine and a fellow a’phile brought up an interesting point when we were discussing some of the high end pricing...he simply stated it was "comical"!!
I would agree with his statement in many instances in this hobby.

Good luck!Upgrading with your kind of budget is opening a can of worms. Be prepared to spend a lot of time and effort if you you want performance that matches your budget. You are faced with some very questionable reviews in the HiFi press (when did you last read a really critical review?), some real nonsense on forums (including this thread) and that’s before compatibility and set up is considered. I’ve not listened to the Dagnostino amps but I think that your scepticism is well placed. Years ago I much preferred the sound of the Advantage (Bladelius) S-250 to the Krell ksa250 And subsequently upgraded it to Grendel and then the stunning Ymer. I recently upgraded my speakers to MA pl500 ii’s. They sounded rubbish in so many ways but had glimpses of great potential. I was open minded and while even purchased some other speakers at 3 times the price to try I still came back to the MA’s. I ended up having to replace every single component to get them working properly: PS audio direct stream to dcS Rossini, Audience au24 cables to SX version, 
pre amp from BAT vk31se to rex2, added shunyata Denali and Gaia feet - superb sound. Now to the power amp question. I am currently demoing a pair of BAT vk655se monos. My expectations were low: the ymer is stunning (look at the specs, how could it be bettered ?) But I was simply stunned. Previously I’ve listened to various Magico’s and YG’s and been impressed by their HiFi sound but left cold, not engaged, but now I was hearing something completely different: Previously every high end system and component had a character that could be described - this was different: no overall HiFi character. Listen to any singer, they have their own character. Listen to a cymbal, it has the character of a cymbal. Every instrument was sounding so distinct and individual that it was hard to believe that they were all coming from the same transducer. Trust me - magic was happening! I would go to huge lengths to listen to these mono blocks. Read this https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/349-balanced-audio-technology-vk655se-power-am...
Bear in mind that he is only reviewing a single stereo one. For me, a single one wasn’t capable of properly controlling my speakers (unlike The Ymer) but the mono blocks were simply awesome. They aren’t audio jewellery but if you’re after the music I think you’ll find They offer far better value than D’Agostino can give. I’ll look forward to hearing how you get on.

BTW Porsche makes beautiful machinery. 

@millercarbon 

I'd rather have an old Krell and a new Porsche Boxster or C8 Corvette for the same money.

"Only one of those is worth any money at all."


Getting a little touchy because Corvette Racing has won the last four IMSA races?  Just sayin' or askin' I guess.

Regards and Stay Well, 
barts

Although you say you would rather have a Krell and a Boxter, most of these buyers have several cars far more expensive than Boxters.

As long as we’re at it, let’s make a list of all the amps - $5k and up - that have no equal in sound quality and build quality at a lower price. 

Let's not forget to factor in the level of R&D that goes into building these things.  Even as simple as a heat sink can take 6-12 months to get right.  If I was to guess (and I could be wrong) the copper used in the chassis is for more than just aesthetics.

Not saying it justifies the price, but if you like the sound, you are not only paying for the obvious parts and labor, you are paying for the process of getting you that sound.  As an example, if it took a manufacturer 3 years to design and develop (time + money) then it is they need to get some sort of return on that investment.  Even though it may seem otherwise, they really don't sell many of these in a year.

That being said, some of the pricing on really high end gear just shatters my mind, especially as it pertains to cables.

after having owned many amps, i now run the Dagnostino Momentums and my "sound dreams" are fulfilled. My wife says, finally a piece of equipment that looks as good as it sounds. No regrets here on the cost. I have also found the company to be very responsive to my inquiries.

I really enjoy my Concert Fidelity 200 FX monobloc amps

bobbydd-----"I'd rather have an old Krell and a new Porsche Boxster or C8 Corvette for the same money"

I almost agree with you.  I have a 35 year old Krell KSA-80B factory recapped driving my Apogee Scintilla One Ohms--and a BMW X3 30 e Hybrid.  Feeding them with Roon/Nucleus+ and a Meridian Ultra Dac.  Love them all.

There are very good class D amps, but I don't think they will ever sound as natural as a class A amp.  Class A amps are obviously much less efficient.  

CD vs Vinyl is a good analogy to class D vs class A.  Viny offers continuous information, class A uses continuous full bias, but digital music is broken up into bits and class D has variable bias.  Both are solutions to reduce cost and increase efficiency and convenience.  

With pulse width modulation and a high enough sampling rate it should be possible to make an excellent sounding Class D amp. TacT did it once before.

mg012, I love Class A amps and have not heard a class D amp that I would be tempted to buy but that is a gross generalization and I have a hard time equating vinyl playback vs CD to Standard VS Class D amplifiers 

When I was at Axpona 2018, Paragon Audio had Wilson XLF’s powered by D’Agostino M300’s.  That was (is) the most natural realistic dynamic sound I’ve ever heard.  Everything they played sounded like live music. It brought tears to my eyes because of the cost.  After that, I looked and looked and found a great pair of Wilson X1’s and life was grand.  I was powering them with old Pass Labs Aleph 2 mono blocks.  Just recently I ran across someone selling a pair of M300’s at a very good price and bought them to recreate those moments in Schaumburg.   The difference between the Aleph 2’s and the M300’s is very subtle, even on very high resolution Wilsons.   Is it worth the price difference?  No.  I do love them though.  
About Class D amps:   If anybody thinks they sound as good as a quality Class A amp, you will benefit from better speakers.  Specs can't measure how natural an amp sounds.  Class D put a "veil" over the music.  It’s almost exactly the same as comparing a well recorded vinyl record to its cd version (again, providing you have great equipment).   Digital can sound great. But analog will always sound more natural, real and dynamic.

Lastly, of course it boils down to whether you can afford the equipment in the first place.   Buy the best you can afford and enjoy it.  

Clearthinker, you telling me that speakers are not overpriced? Maybe at the bottom end but at the top end like cartridges they are way overpriced. God bless Magnepan and Soundlabs. High end speakers at reasonable prices. 

Dan is a jerk. I can say that from extreme first hand experience backed up by my best friend who was with me at the time. The input selector of my Krell Ref 2 preamp had two dead contacts and the others were very scratchy. The unit was 11 years old. My friend and I bumped into Dan at the New York Hi Fi show. Must have been 1995 or so. Dan told us it was a custom part, there were none left and he was not going to have any more made. And I quote, " Go to radio shack and get a selector switch and just mount on top." Last a lifetime? My backside. Fortunately, nature saved the day and hit my house with lightening about a month later sending me into TacT land. One year later one of my Krell KMA 100s blew it's output stage. I traded them for a new set of ribbons for my Divas.

"In the audio high-end world, amplifiers ands dacs are the most overpriced. Speakers less so."

No.  Most of today's turntables are the most over-designed, bling-ridden components.  Utterly ridiculous and adding nothing except exotic materials and kg+++.  Needless to say, totally over-priced.

"Class D Purifi will slaughter the $20K+ amps. It's just a matter of time. Perhaps if someone gold plaed one... "

Hope you're still young!
You're gonna have a helluva wait.....

Interesting replies so far for sure.

A few points to consider:

M400's have an 1800 KV transformer as stated in this thread.  I believe my KSA 250 has a 4500 KV transformer that by itself outweighs an entire M400 mono amp by 20 pounds or more.  Just sayin'.....

I have nothing against paying a premium for a great product: in 1997 ordered and purchased a new air cooled 911, knowing it would be among the last of it's kind.  Drove it to work this morning, and still love the build quality, engineering, look, feel and sound that will never be duplicated in a competing product.  

Same with my SME V tonearm I purchased in 1990 and still use - a great high end product and totally worth what it cost at the time ($2500 though I paid less for a new one).

IMO no matter what it costs IF it's good value then it's worth it.

I'm not convinced D'agostino amps are in that category after at least a half dozen auditions and visual inspections.  

Will admit they are pretty in a mini me sort of way … but since I'm more interested in sound AND value I could only consider one used at heavy discount (even then I'm not so sure).

I call my system "Frankenstein".  Lots of compromises due to space limitations and budget.  Thankfully it works a lot better than Frankenstein's monster.

I've heard the D'agostino M400 monoblocks at Echo Audio in Portland, in their old space which was really terrible acoustically.  That system sounded amazing.  Maybe the best I've heard.

If I had the space and the budget and wanted to have a system that looks as good as it sounds, I'd definitely consider them.  They don't fit my current situation, but that's no reason for me to disparage others who might find them just right for their situation.

Beef is in the margins

At AXPONA 2018 I talked to a guy from D'Agostino during a slow period on the last day. He told me how expensive and difficult it was to make the copper heat sinks and how they had to replace a bunch of them under warranty from early in the production run because the lacquer would flake off. The copper pieces have to be machined and coated within minutes because copper instantly starts to corrode. They could only find one machine shop with the capability to meet their standards and I'm sure that shop charged a hefty price. I was a little surprised about him being so open about the cost of a purely cosmetic feature of the amp.

I've seen the Momentums at a couple of shows and they really are beautiful. The term "audio jewelry" totally applies to these amps and I'm sure a significant part of their cost is the casework. If I could afford them I would seriously consider buying them just as I would seriously consider an exotic car. I currently own a KSA 300S that I'm spending $3K to recap and renew so it will be good for another 20 years. It weighs 185 lbs and in my amp most of the copper is in the transformer instead of the heat sinks.

The Momentums sounded good but so do a lot of other amps. Dan has targeted a niche where appearance is a major selling feature of his top level amps. If you want an amp that has both beautiful casework and very expensive components D'Agostino has come up with the Relentless. For $250,000 you can have it all!

Lets get the Johnny Cash record CRY CRY CRY DUDES!!!!!

it's not like these amps sell in great numbers...they sound great, and there are many who don't mind spending a few extra thousand to have them look great too...

The High End of five (and six!) figure components is really a fantasyland for the money-to-burn crowd! Check out the cover of the latest TAS and those Wilson speakers! 

     Many luxury products are designed, produced and marketed based on the well founded belief that their customers have a surplus of money and a scarcity of sense.  
     The majority of us are constantly required to maintain some semblance of an equilibrium between our money and our sense of what to spend it on.  The very wealthy have no such restrictions, possess the freedom to purchase products based on emotions that a surplus of money bestows and certainly have no responsibility of explaining their purchases to anyone .
     Money equals freedom in direct proportion, the more you have the freer you become and this freedom extends to the ability to buy wisely or stupidly.  I'm pro-freedom, I admire and respect it and would definitely enjoy a bit more of it.

You go girls!
Tim

We all know that looks & name play a factor in pricing.  That is a given.  

Something I don’t have a handle on is the R&D that goes into these components.  That has to influence pricing.  Given that major dealers are upgrading components practically each year, there must be quite a bit of R&D and testing that gets factored into costs,.