Cornwall IV vs. Volti Rival, Razz; Razz v. 1, 2, 3 -- what changed?

Just to P.S. my recent post with an interesting video from Crowe:

Crowe Speakers Youtube

@james633 Thanks! I'll take a look. $16k is a healthy price tag. These are interesting, and $10k: 

Hilde45

the Seneca/Hudson are brand new, I just thought it looked interesting. 
 

Steve Guttenberg called it the “best sound” of Axpona for what it is worth. That does not mean too much to me but does say that the speaker is more or less designed correctly. It falls into the “better built” Klispch category. 
 

At 4 minutes 35s into this video. 
 

Never heard of Seneca. Interesting. A search on HiFi Shark reveal none for sale nor any in the expired sales. None on the used market. 

Ampsandsound Seneca is another speakers that falls in this wheel house. Looks nice too. They have gotten good comments from shows but I have not heard much about them, nor hear them. 
 

https://ampsandsound.com/products/seneca-2way-speaker

@tds3371 My mistake -- I was looking at the OPTIONS page, on the Volti site.

Oops. Much more expensive. Go upgrades!!!

@hilde45 

I agree with your assessment of the CWs.  However, can you share where the Volti Rivals are $8,900 - or a mere $2,300 more than the CWs?  Perhaps I'm not looking in the right place, buy I show them starting at $16,000 a pair.  It's primarily the cost that's keeping me from replacing my Klipsch Belles.

Greg was a klipsch owner for many years. He was also a regular on the klipsch community forum for a long time. When he decided to start making speakers it was received with mixed reviews by the members there. So eventually I think he just bowed out.

Some of you may recall that Greg got his start years ago offering first cosmetic upgrades to Klipschorns on ebay, and then horn and driver upgrades, then finally starting his own company and producing his own speakers. He was definitely inspired by Klipsch.

Maybe not apples to apples, but when I discovered Volti offering Klipsch upgrades here, it seems Volti drivers are better than Klipsch. I get the feeling that Greg looked at Klipsch speakers as a reference then made better sonic products reflected in the many very positive reviews.

Thanks @doyle3433 

I’m not speaker shopping at the moment, but I’m keeping them on the short list to audition when possible. Greg is only a little over six hours away and it gives me a good reason to visit Nashville again.

I did get two listens to the Lucera at the Fla. show in Feb. I was struck by how even better the mids sounded than my Razz. Fuller and more weight, more presence in the soundstage. The highs were just as sweet as my Razz, but just a little better too. (new high end driver there, a better horn tweeter than the bullet style in the Razz)

Greg explained he did some crossover upgrading, picked a better tweeter, re-worked the mid horn and increased the woofer size. All made perfect sense to me and the results (ahem) spoke for themselves.

If i had the scratch right now, I would be on my way to pick up the pair he has advertised in red gum with the cream grill cloth!  Good lord I'm in love again. 

Thanks @hilde45 

@vthokie83 

@doyle3433 

Any remarks on the Lucera? If you guys already posted something I missed it.

@ozzy62 

Both 

vthokie83
doyle3433

reported they had.

Has anyone heard the Lucera yet?

It seems pretty confirmed that the CW's are great speakers if they are seriously modded. Thanks for the update about that. Some will see this as a great opportunity -- like buying a house with "good bones" and then making a dream house out of it. Others will see this as a deficiency in a $7k speaker. I suppose it comes down to what you're comparing it to. The value of the Voltis, then, seems to be that they are prêt-à-porter. 

I wonder how much time and parts the Cornwall IV need. They're price at $6,598.00 and Rivals are $8,900.00, a $2300 difference, or about one-third more expensive. 

I was just about to do the Crites thing when Sr. passed away. I live only a few hours from them. However, I am reasonably handy with soldering iron and could probably handle installing an upgraded crossover and pure copper WBT fittings shipped to me by his son with special attention paid to not getting shocked by the old caps. With proper toe-in I doubt I will Dynamat the horns though. Would do the bass basket however. At the moment am experimenting with 18lb lead bars slipped through bass ports to rest on bottom of cabinet.

A few years ago I attached to the bottom plinth a piece of cut to fit 3/4 inch plywood stapled with rubber shelf liner on one side and screwed to the bottom of the open plinth.. This immediately quelled any bass interaction with my wood floors without stunting bass. I do think the modern cabinets made of heavy MDF do a good job of quelling cabinet resonances in general though. If I experimented with "No-Rez" it would certainly not be attached with permanent glue though.

I have a pair of 77’ CW Decorators. Got them in a trade w a friend. 

He had upgraded the crossover to a Crites, as well as upgrading the super tweeter.

They were quite boomy/shrill when I put them in my small - 11’x18’ - listening room. 

I did some internal bracing to the enclosures and damped the horns, as has been suggested above. 
 

Love the Cornwalls! The best I’ve heard them here, is being driven with my 30w Hiraga class A SS amp, using a tube pre. So dynamic, huge soundstage with very good imaging for such a big speaker in such a small room.

One of the big benefits of having these speakers is I have a wide range of amp options available to me. As an avid DIYer of audio gear, they really showcase differences in the gear driving them.

Late night, low volume listening and they do not disappoint. Capable of such delicate presentation, but when you need them to go big, they can.

Not for everyone, I get it, but these are staying for the long run as they are a great option to keep in my “inventory”.
 

@wrm57 

What I didn’t at first quite grok when I got my Cornwall 4’s 4 years ago is that the "bass ports" on the front are really more like horns. They are shaped like the mid and tweeter horns, and there is a lot of air being handled by them; and they are just as "directive" as the upper horns. They are actually porting a lot of mid and high energy as well as bass. This more than usual specific directivity across the spectrum is why the speakers can and should be toed out more than you think. The collective directivity of these two convergent, focused beams of sound can maintain coherence with a wider space between and shallower angles. If the speakers are toed in too much they will "trip over each" and sound will be harsh and confused. Complex passages will be congested.

In my listening chair the apex of the "listening triangle" is probably about 6 six feet behind my head. When I was using tubes it was more like 3 feet. With the new GanFet monoblocs there is more energy with higher articulation, so the toe out is wider without any drop in detail, speed, or tonality. Fewer sonic "collisions" mean a more relaxed sound and non-fatiguing presentation.

Thanks for the further updates about varia.
I plan on trying Tannoy and, soon, Fyne.
I'm excited about some of the lower power amp possibilities this opens up.

What happened with all those deleted posts? Weird.

One of the great advantage of high efficiency speakers is their ability to sound alive and exciting at quite low volume levels.  That is part of the reason why they work so well with SET amps.  I personally would feel comfortable with using a 2 watt amp with a 100 db/w speaker, but, I don’t listen at high levels.  If you do, be aware that a 2a3 or 45 SET might not be up to the task. 

hilde45

Certainly understand about not wanting to have buyers remorse.

If you're considering Tannoy, I'd also highly consider Fyne Audio. Fyne was started with the core of Tannoy's design team in 2017, after Tannoy was sold to a Chinese company. The team includes Dr. Paul Mills as technical director. All Fyne high end speakers use cryo treated electronics, and are built in Scottland.

@mrdecibel, stacked Advents! Those were the days!

I was targeting the Rivals IIRC at ~$10k, then was very disappointed that Volti, along with the rest of the industry, raised their prices. I complained to Greg even though I knew it wasn’t his fault - rising Covid/post Covid costs. He says to demo the RAZZ, which I did at 2 audio shows - they sounded fantastic, but I had already mentally invested in the idea of Rivals.

Luckily, there was a used mint pair of Rivals in my favorite wood veneer - birdseye maple so I purchased them. When the stars line up.... I was a bit surprised how much larger they are vs the RAZZ.

The new Lucera has larger drivers, seemingly the same as the Rivals.

After hearing the RAZZ, it’s hard to imagine @hilde45 wanting to upgrade as the sonics are terrific. However if @hilde45 has a bit of curiousity upgraditis as many of us do, then he should stretch for at least the Lucera.

If I had the large space and funds, I’d purchase the Volti Vittora which seems sonically superior to Klipsch offerings. As horn bass drivers can be huge, the size of the Vittora is my comfort limit.

@hilde45 wishing you the very best and hope you find your ideal sound

Maybe useful: My main system is Vimberg MinoD driven by Constellation electronics targeting neutral linear without giving up musicality. My Volti Rival at 100dB is used to explore tube magic starting with the 300b and flea watt amps. Greg confirmed that I can try 2watts amps which opens the door to try 2a3 and 45 SET amps.

A stacked pair of tweaked/modified CWIV. Invert the top pair, as we used to do with Lg Advents, AR, Heresy, JBLs. etc. Under your budget. What a presentation !

@hilde45 Not trying to push Tannoy's, and I have never owned them, but I'm intrigued by them. Why? Same reason I became a fan of Harbeth. Once you hear them the sound sticks with you (me).

I heard vintage Tannoy's - no idea what model but pretty sure the driver's were 12 or 15" monitor gold, driven by a Jadis tube amp and a streamer/Dac unit that I do not recall. This was at George Meyer repair shop in LA. The system was in the front "office" and could not have been more haphazardly set up - but the timbre of the low end was quite remarkable along with what seemed like nice detail and mid range. 

FWIW. 

@hilde45 "Because I am willing to spend, say $16k as the upper end of used, that means that it’s relevant, to me, to allow discussion to range widely, if that means speakers with MSRP much higher than the MSRP of the Cornwalls or Rivals but with the possibility of a used one for sale."

This is helpful to close in scope a bit more with funding potential. IIRC the older thread a while back topped out at $10k. Now we’ve bumped up from Cornwall range to $16k upper end - of used. That definitely opens a few more doors I’d think. Will be fun to read what members continue to suggest. Enjoying reading this particular thread as more speaker geeks come out from the woods and chime in more. :)

@tvad No worries. Appreciate your taking an interest in the question! Thank you!

Budget? Budget limit?

The budget range was at least implied by the speakers in the initial post -- CW's are around $7k new and Rivals are $16k. That's pretty clear. Put otherwise, I am not interested in spending $20k on speakers, but I am willing to buy used.

Because I am willing to spend, say $16k as the upper end of used, that means that it’s relevant, to me, to allow discussion to range widely, if that means speakers with MSRP much higher than the MSRP of the Cornwalls or Rivals but with the possibility of a used one for sale. You all know that there are always deals out there, but one cannot position oneself to take advantage of them without some criteria. That opens up a range of options, but clearly it does not imply $50k+ speakers

Room will vary. I’m in a 25x14x 6.5 now and will move to a 26 x 15 x 8 room.
Sound characteristics? I’m interested in the usual ones (which I described here already) but with the quickness of horns.

Cornwall IV are decent in stock form but not great, IMO. However, if you’re willing to put some effort and $1,500 or so into them, they become great. Change out the capacitors and resistors in the xover according to the Don Sachs recipe in the long thread thread on this board. Damp the horns and woofer baskets with Dynamat or similar. Upgrade the binding posts to WBT NextGen. None of these mods is complicated or difficult if you can solder and desolder. Because I have a hardwood floor, I adhered Herbie’s Giant Gliders to the bottom corners with carpet tape. Altogether it was maybe 15-20 hours of work because I’m slow, hyper-careful, and minimally skilled.

If I had not done these mods, I would have returned the speakers to MD precisely because of the criticisms mentioned in this thread. Highs were a little aggressive and ragged, tonal balance was tilted up while the bass was inarticulate. I was not satisfied at all. After the mods, combined with a good 300B amp, I have no criticisms worth mentioning. I swap in two other amp/speaker combos into this system, both costing much more. The CW/300B combo is my fav.

It’s weird to buy new speakers and have to perform surgery for them to become acceptable (at least to me). I definitely get that. The Voltis might be as good or better out of the box. But I love these speakers now. They do everything I want in a horn/SET system without going too huge.

I'm just here to say that I'm still thrilled with my Rivals. A buddy came over with the 12" 45 rpm of "For Those About to Rock" and the Rivals may have cracked the foundation. :)  And the mids! The screaming mids! And the lows - the highs were there of course.

Then we put on the MFSL of Beck's Sea Change at a more reasonable volume level and the sound was just as impressive with a nicer more euphoric sound and sound stage.

Then back to hard rock to STP and the volume back up.

Then to Elton's Funeral for a Friend - Speakers Corner vs. UK OG DJM, one after another. 

After that side 2 of a tri-color, Santa Maria of Axis Bold as Love and back down to a more reasonable voulme and WOW -= there is some magic ferry dust in that pressing. The 3D / sound stage was on another planet.

More to follow after that and it was permagrin for 3 hours until my wife came back from her hair appt and power off.

I've never heard a Klipsch Heritage so I can't make that comparison but what I can say that I still look forward to every listening session like it is an event. And it is.

Lots of great responses in this thread and interesting comparison feedback. Nice!

What I dont see however is a budget limit. One gets discussed and another speaker beats the last one mentioned, and we ramp up from $6-7k speakers right up to $20k speakers. Bring on the $25-30k horns before we know it.

You see this same upward spiral develop on $800 Magnepan threads that evolve into Sanders and then triple the price Soundlabs, and it keeps going to the moon, then Mars and Jupiter into the galaxy, LOL.

Keeps going up-and-up!:

I’m not a horn guru or anything but helped a buddy on a design to build three pairs of Altec Onken model replica speakers for him and two of his friends. It started out as a reasonable budget speaker pair design. Well that went out the window quickly too. Then he went back and resigned and completely rebuilt the crossovers a few times, all original drivers to start. Nope, then up another level there too - then on to Great Plains reconditioned drivers. This project reminds me of finding the best speaker we can with a budget set limit. Without a budget limit set, these purchases and projects can feed into themselves and get completely out of control, good grief. Then looking back spending 3-5x of what we started with in the beginning. Oh well, nobody ever said audio-foolery fun was cheap to do, lol.

Price Ranges:

It might be fun to read a thread with horns let’s say "best overall value" in the $4-5k range. Then $5-7k, best for $10k, best for $15k range, best for $20k range. Heck, bring on the $30k horns an up. Start shopping for a new Mustang and end up with a new Porsche Carrera payment. Good grief, and so it goes.

@hilde45 if some of these top out for ya, might as well throw some of the Great Plains Audio builds into the mix too if interested in something custom designed and built too in between some of these. Would likely need to find a regional-local person to listen to them if anyone in your state has built them. I’ve heard them a few times, can be nice too! Just another option as this spirals upward and outward!

@hilde45 ,

I found another pair of speakers I like slightly better. At least I think I do. I still think the Cornwalls are very good speakers. I wasn’t looking for speakers just kinda popped up. 

Most important addition to My Cornwalls by far was a pair of REL S812 subwoofers. They have as much to do with modifying the mids and highs as they do with modifying bass. By playing with the crossover in the subs and that interaction with gain many wonderful things can happen with sound including the ability to mitigate upper register glare. It was a revelation.

Many listeners assume that the Cornwall’s 15 inch woofers "take care" of bass. No they don’t. It is true of many speakers that a good sub arrangement gives you many more options for sound adjustment across the spectrum no matter how much bass you think your speakers have.

@mrdecibel

Over the years, I have had hundreds of customers following my directions on doing these simple, inexpensive but somewhat time consuming procedures, and some say it is a different speaker altogether, saying the " nasties " have gone away. Woofer frames also benefit from damping. And cabinets...there are endless things one can do.

Who are "your customers" and what is your business? I’ve seen some videos explaining how to do this. I suppose I could drop close to $7k on a speaker so I could take it apart and do time consuming surgery on it...in the many different ways the speaker apparently needs help...

@kennyc
Thanks for the additional options. I’ve heard Tekton and they are too raw for me.

@vthokie83 ​@larryi
There is a Razz used near me that has my attention. But the common response keeps coming, viz., about the Rival and/or the Lucera. I don’t want to go the Razz route and then immediately have the desire to upgrade, so waiting seems a better path right now. Charney is interesting! Probably the reason people are suggesting Tannoy, too? (Single driver path...)

@mofojo You say the CW4’s "just sound right" but you’re getting rid of them...why?