Cornwall IV vs. Volti Rival, Razz; Razz v. 1, 2, 3 -- what changed?

hilde45

Certainly understand about not wanting to have buyers remorse.

If you're considering Tannoy, I'd also highly consider Fyne Audio. Fyne was started with the core of Tannoy's design team in 2017, after Tannoy was sold to a Chinese company. The team includes Dr. Paul Mills as technical director. All Fyne high end speakers use cryo treated electronics, and are built in Scottland.

One of the great advantage of high efficiency speakers is their ability to sound alive and exciting at quite low volume levels.  That is part of the reason why they work so well with SET amps.  I personally would feel comfortable with using a 2 watt amp with a 100 db/w speaker, but, I don’t listen at high levels.  If you do, be aware that a 2a3 or 45 SET might not be up to the task. 

Thanks for the further updates about varia.
I plan on trying Tannoy and, soon, Fyne.
I'm excited about some of the lower power amp possibilities this opens up.

What happened with all those deleted posts? Weird.

What I didn’t at first quite grok when I got my Cornwall 4’s 4 years ago is that the "bass ports" on the front are really more like horns. They are shaped like the mid and tweeter horns, and there is a lot of air being handled by them; and they are just as "directive" as the upper horns. They are actually porting a lot of mid and high energy as well as bass. This more than usual specific directivity across the spectrum is why the speakers can and should be toed out more than you think. The collective directivity of these two convergent, focused beams of sound can maintain coherence with a wider space between and shallower angles. If the speakers are toed in too much they will "trip over each" and sound will be harsh and confused. Complex passages will be congested.

In my listening chair the apex of the "listening triangle" is probably about 6 six feet behind my head. When I was using tubes it was more like 3 feet. With the new GanFet monoblocs there is more energy with higher articulation, so the toe out is wider without any drop in detail, speed, or tonality. Fewer sonic "collisions" mean a more relaxed sound and non-fatiguing presentation.

@wrm57 

I have a pair of 77’ CW Decorators. Got them in a trade w a friend. 

He had upgraded the crossover to a Crites, as well as upgrading the super tweeter.

They were quite boomy/shrill when I put them in my small - 11’x18’ - listening room. 

I did some internal bracing to the enclosures and damped the horns, as has been suggested above. 
 

Love the Cornwalls! The best I’ve heard them here, is being driven with my 30w Hiraga class A SS amp, using a tube pre. So dynamic, huge soundstage with very good imaging for such a big speaker in such a small room.

One of the big benefits of having these speakers is I have a wide range of amp options available to me. As an avid DIYer of audio gear, they really showcase differences in the gear driving them.

Late night, low volume listening and they do not disappoint. Capable of such delicate presentation, but when you need them to go big, they can.

Not for everyone, I get it, but these are staying for the long run as they are a great option to keep in my “inventory”.
 

I was just about to do the Crites thing when Sr. passed away. I live only a few hours from them. However, I am reasonably handy with soldering iron and could probably handle installing an upgraded crossover and pure copper WBT fittings shipped to me by his son with special attention paid to not getting shocked by the old caps. With proper toe-in I doubt I will Dynamat the horns though. Would do the bass basket however. At the moment am experimenting with 18lb lead bars slipped through bass ports to rest on bottom of cabinet.

A few years ago I attached to the bottom plinth a piece of cut to fit 3/4 inch plywood stapled with rubber shelf liner on one side and screwed to the bottom of the open plinth.. This immediately quelled any bass interaction with my wood floors without stunting bass. I do think the modern cabinets made of heavy MDF do a good job of quelling cabinet resonances in general though. If I experimented with "No-Rez" it would certainly not be attached with permanent glue though.

It seems pretty confirmed that the CW's are great speakers if they are seriously modded. Thanks for the update about that. Some will see this as a great opportunity -- like buying a house with "good bones" and then making a dream house out of it. Others will see this as a deficiency in a $7k speaker. I suppose it comes down to what you're comparing it to. The value of the Voltis, then, seems to be that they are prêt-à-porter. 

I wonder how much time and parts the Cornwall IV need. They're price at $6,598.00 and Rivals are $8,900.00, a $2300 difference, or about one-third more expensive. 

Has anyone heard the Lucera yet?

@ozzy62 

Both 

vthokie83
doyle3433

reported they had.

Thanks @hilde45 

@vthokie83 

@doyle3433 

Any remarks on the Lucera? If you guys already posted something I missed it.

I did get two listens to the Lucera at the Fla. show in Feb. I was struck by how even better the mids sounded than my Razz. Fuller and more weight, more presence in the soundstage. The highs were just as sweet as my Razz, but just a little better too. (new high end driver there, a better horn tweeter than the bullet style in the Razz)

Greg explained he did some crossover upgrading, picked a better tweeter, re-worked the mid horn and increased the woofer size. All made perfect sense to me and the results (ahem) spoke for themselves.

If i had the scratch right now, I would be on my way to pick up the pair he has advertised in red gum with the cream grill cloth!  Good lord I'm in love again. 

Thanks @doyle3433 

I’m not speaker shopping at the moment, but I’m keeping them on the short list to audition when possible. Greg is only a little over six hours away and it gives me a good reason to visit Nashville again.

Maybe not apples to apples, but when I discovered Volti offering Klipsch upgrades here, it seems Volti drivers are better than Klipsch. I get the feeling that Greg looked at Klipsch speakers as a reference then made better sonic products reflected in the many very positive reviews.

Some of you may recall that Greg got his start years ago offering first cosmetic upgrades to Klipschorns on ebay, and then horn and driver upgrades, then finally starting his own company and producing his own speakers. He was definitely inspired by Klipsch.

Greg was a klipsch owner for many years. He was also a regular on the klipsch community forum for a long time. When he decided to start making speakers it was received with mixed reviews by the members there. So eventually I think he just bowed out.

@hilde45 

I agree with your assessment of the CWs.  However, can you share where the Volti Rivals are $8,900 - or a mere $2,300 more than the CWs?  Perhaps I'm not looking in the right place, buy I show them starting at $16,000 a pair.  It's primarily the cost that's keeping me from replacing my Klipsch Belles.

@tds3371 My mistake -- I was looking at the OPTIONS page, on the Volti site.

Oops. Much more expensive. Go upgrades!!!

Ampsandsound Seneca is another speakers that falls in this wheel house. Looks nice too. They have gotten good comments from shows but I have not heard much about them, nor hear them. 
 

https://ampsandsound.com/products/seneca-2way-speaker

Never heard of Seneca. Interesting. A search on HiFi Shark reveal none for sale nor any in the expired sales. None on the used market. 

Hilde45

the Seneca/Hudson are brand new, I just thought it looked interesting. 
 

Steve Guttenberg called it the “best sound” of Axpona for what it is worth. That does not mean too much to me but does say that the speaker is more or less designed correctly. It falls into the “better built” Klispch category. 
 

At 4 minutes 35s into this video. 
 

@james633 Thanks! I'll take a look. $16k is a healthy price tag. These are interesting, and $10k: 

Just to P.S. my recent post with an interesting video from Crowe:

Crowe Speakers Youtube

Looks interesting. But truly an unknown and probably no way to audition unless you are local.

Don't believe everything said here.The klipsch cabs are not made in China My IVs are 3 years old look and sound amazing . Every upgrade whether better wires and interconnects only makes them sound better. Not knowing the quality of the  equipment, room size and positioning of the  speakers, and above all the quality of the recordings, makes a lot of these conversations mute. IVs cater more to live music, Unplugs and classics.Good quality recordings of any music will not disappoint. Good amps and preamps can really create great soundstage and holographics I use Mcintosh power and mcintosh tube preamp with an old Yamaha 120 sub. to push my IVs. Fault can be found in any speaker no matter the price. But the Corns. at 6500.00 are hard to beat.

I can’t speak to the quality of the cabinets themselves, but the veneer used on modern heritage speakers is very thin and prone to scratching and damage very easily. Many people have reported this as well.

Don't believe everything said here.The klipsch cabs are not made in China My IVs are 3 years old look and sound amazing.

That is on Volti's website. Are you saying that Mr. Roberts has an inaccurate statement on his website? That would be a serious accusation. But if you do a little research, you'll see that there are many people claiming this, some with proof. So, there's that, and Mr. Roberts seems like he actually knows what he's talking about.

The Klipsch Heritage series cabinets are made here, as are the pro and cinema lines. All of the others are made in China. At one point Klipsch used 3/4 Baltic Birch. To the individual who has the Belles, damp the horns and purchase an RSL 12s subwoofer. An awesome cohesive fit with the Klipsch dog houses. My best, MrD.

@mrdecibel either you or Volti are correct on this.

YOU: The Klipsch Heritage series cabinets are made here, as are the pro and cinema lines.

or

Volti website: "The Klipsch Forte cabinet is made in China of material that is just a step above the highest grade of cardboard.  In this industry, there is a range of quality in cabinet construction from lowest to highest, and when it comes to wooden speaker cabinets, the Klipsch Forte cabinet falls into the lowest end of that range.  I don’t think it is possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."

Wow! That's really surprising and disappointing.

https://youtu.be/ln_ONxCGapo?si=jW0X7TtdyQUGMqnD

The Heritage line is still made in the US .   The cabinets are made here, woofer is made my Eminence in KY , mid is made by Celestion for Klipsch.   

I've had Forte IV since they came out and they've been great.   I paid $3k plus a pair of H3 I had for five years.   

Yes the Volti are nice but they have gone up a lot in the past few years.  Out of many people's reach.   If I could buy a mint used pair right ,  I probably would. 

Your right about the grills but i fixed mine. From the back gently push on the material until it's free from the wood. it's tacky so let it go back freely it reseated itself. Hope it works for you

As a Klipsch follower/user/tweaker/modifier/listener of 56 years, who has met PWK on a couple of occasions during my life, I feel saddened by what I read from Greg Roberts. If not for the horn design of PWK, Roberts would not have his Vittora model. Secondly, Roberts puts a huge amount of money into the cabinets, no doubt, but the customer is paying for it. And finally, I have respected Roberts since his beginnings, but after reading his words as a manufacturer disparaging the Klipsch company that he copied for his design, I am besides myself. I always wanted a pair of Vittoras, but now, would never purchase a Volti product. In conclusion, I feel Greg Roberts should apologize for his nasty, inaccurate words. There, I said it. My best to all.....Enjoy ! MrD.

Can't directly compare to the Cornwalls, but I did own the Forte III's that I actually traded to Greg as part of a deal to buy a pair of Razz speakers.  I did a quick review for Greg (and my local audio group) on the differences between the Forte III's and the initial Razz speakers.  This is on Greg's Volti page, but here's what I said--

I recently purchased a pair of Razz speakers from Greg–here’s my initial take. They replaced a pair of Klipsch Forte IIIs . . .

Continue Reading

The bass response on the Razz is much better. For some reason, you look at the woofer on the Forte III’s and the giant passive radiator on the back and you expect a lot of bass, but it really doesn’t happen. Maybe pushed about 10” off the wall, but leads to other issues. I never minded the bass on the Klipsch but the Razz are clearly more prominent in the bass response. What really stands out is the integration between the upper bass and lower midrange. I’m hearing details in this area that I NEVER heard out of the Klipsch.

The imaging is also much better on the Razz. They throw a nice wide sound stage in which all the images are clearly firmly locked in place. That just isn’t something the Klipsch did all that well.

For me, the biggest improvement is how real the instruments sound coming out of the Razz. The horns sound like they are in the room with you. Acoustic guitars are right on. Combined with better detail coming out of the Razz, this is where the two speakers are the most different. The number of times I heard a detail or a separation of voices on the Razz that I have never noticed on the Forte III’s was astounding.  And there is no upper midrange glare of any kind on the Razz. The volume goes up and it’s just as listenable as at lower levels.

 The Razz are simply better speakers.

This was the Razz V1.  The V2 changed the tweeters that Greg used, if there is a V3 I'm going to guess it involves a small tweak to the crossover, which I would not sweat at all.  I ended up trading the Razz back to Greg for a pair of Rival SEs, which I love.  Finally, if you like Volti, I can't see you liking Fyne.  I have a local dealer who carries them and I HATE them.  Boring and uninvolving, the complete opposite of Volti--FWIW.  If you are curious, here are the Rivals that I bought (in the middle of COVID).

https://voltiaudio.com/RivalSErosewood.shtml

What I see here is Greg open his own business by copying Klipsch speakers. Someone is spreading falsehoods about his competition to help bolster his sales. Without hearing both sets of speakers together with the same songs and amps. I would not jump in. Opinions are like, you know the rest, everyone has one. What someone likes another could hate. It took a while to get may Corns. to sound great to me. I made my own interconnects Bought twisted silver speaker wire from a site online 14 ga. I found that some of the expensive wires were not better just looked good and were a lot more money . Check it out for yourselves and don’t believe everything you read.

What Greg first did was fix some friends' older Khorns by designing a replacement horn for them.  His horns were such a dramatic improvement over the original that he realized he could build a better speaker.  From his background in building furniture, his choice of real wood and superb veneers are far superior to anything Klipsh has to offer.  His horns are next level--just speak through one of his and one designed by Klipsch (one sounds like a natural voice, one does not), and the bass (both amount and integration with the midrange horn) are much improved.

Everything that Volti does in its design improves upon Klipsch,  if that's copying in your book, stick with the Cornwalls and be happy.