Cornwall IV vs. Volti Rival, Razz; Razz v. 1, 2, 3 -- what changed?
Looking for efficient speakers. I had the opportunity to listen to a Cornwall IV yesterday. It was run on nice tubes (Primaluna 400 EL34s) with a bluesound node streamer/dac.
QUESTION: I'm curious if anyone has compared CW IV with Volti Rival of Razz. Thoughts?
QUESTION 2: Anyone know what changed in the Volti Razz when it moved from v. 2 to v. 3?
That's a really great quote -- which doesn't address the main issue. While it's great to see all the things Volti is improving over Klipsch, and people can decide for themselves about those differences (they seem significant), the key question is untouched by that quote. The question was raised below about a claim on Volti’s website, viz.,
Volti website: "The Klipsch Forte cabinet is made in China of material that is just a step above the highest grade of cardboard. In this industry, there is a range of quality in cabinet construction from lowest to highest, and when it comes to wooden speaker cabinets, the Klipsch Forte cabinet falls into the lowest end of that range. I don’t think it is possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."
This is a matter of simple fact -- about the quality and provenance of Klipsch cabinets (Good/US vs. Cheap/China). If folks could know the basis of this claim on Volti’s website about this issue that would end that debate, here.
@hilde45I can't tell you where the Klipsch cabinets are made, outside of telling you that my pair of Forte IIIs looked great and seemed well constructed.
I can tell you that I have seen how Volti does things, having been to Greg's Baxter facility twice. Whether he's building them by hand or using CNC machines the birch plywood he uses is as solid as it comes. You can see what his speakers actually look like unadorned by looking at the pictures of his "Decorator" Razz speakers (some listed under speakers for sale). But to me, that's not the way to go because his work with veneers is artisan quality. The number of folks who come into my house and just gawk at the Rosewood Rivals is crazy (although my wife wishes they were smaller).
And just to get this out of the way--I like the Forte IIIs. Greg also likes the Forte IIIs. They are a ton of fun. But if you want to love your speakers and have something that you can live with forever, any of the Volit models are the way to go.
"Many Klipsch speakers are made in the USA with global materials, however, in recent years, they’ve moved some manufacturing overseas to countries like China. Their speakers within their Heritage line, along with many of their cinema and reference speakers, are still made in America."
That is a piece of evidence, though it’s not coming from Klipsch. Not bad, though. @badgerdms
I can tell you that I have seen how Volti does things...Whether he’s building them by hand or using CNC machines the birch plywood he uses is as solid as it comes.
That’s very nice to know. I’m interested, however, in the claim on Volti’s website (a) that the Forte cab’s are made in China and (b) are "just a step above the highest grade of cardboard" and [cabinet construction] that "falls into the lowest end of that range" and that the it is not "possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."
Some evidence has been produced here indicating the Volti claim about Klipsch coming from China is false. Some people are testifying to the solidity of their own speakers. We have not yet seen evidence that the Klipsch cabs for the Fortes are made in China, and we have Volti’s testimony that they’re flimsy.
The fact that GR indicated China manufacturing of a Heritage product, which was bad enough based on a falsehood or misinformation, it was how he described the wood as being one step above, over cardboard. Not right, even if he thought so. Interesting story of how and why he developed the Lascala, and I love the design. I can find fault in every budget loudspeaker, $15K being budget nowadays. Talking about why US companies move manufacturing to China, whether politically correct or not, should not be a surprise. I know of so many Chinese produced products that are excellent. I few months ago I sold my Jungson JA99C power amp to a local individual. It is a very heavy beast and ran way too hot for my situation, considering I leave solid state on 24/7 (the build quality and beauty is incredible). The heatsinks has very little ringing, compared to many. I am looking to sell a few more 70+ pounders for this reason (and this is not an advertisement of sale, as I only sell locally, as I do not ship any longer). The 99C is a great amp, and imo, ime, and in my system, it embarrassed much more expensive products, made here in the good old USA (will not mention brands nor models). The buyer came to my home to listen to it and was flabbergasted at what he heard. Coincidently he also owns Lascalas, and I helped him tweak his pair (at no cost other than material). At his home, he is a collector as I am. He replaced a Levinson with the 99C and could not be happier (I concur). Wow, talk about being long winded. My best always, MrD.
hilde45 - I am also interested to know where the Forte cabinets are made. It seems strange that nobody here can confirm or refute Volti's claim conclusively. I've been looking around the web and can't find a definitive answer as to where Forte cabinets are built.
I’d be interested in solid fact. I am inclined to believe that Volti’s facts are correct, if only because claiming it on a public facing website -- in a post clearly advantaging his own, competing product -- would be a huge negative if it proved false. I also imagine that after upgrading Klipsch for so many years, he knows the provenance of the parts. It would improve the Volti website to link to the proof or cite it, I think. The adjectives describing the cheapness of construction seem a bit questionable. One could communicate their inferiority with a gentler touch. But that’s just my opinion.
@bjesien As you attached photos of your room/equipment (very nice btw) here, you can post it on your systems page, and when everyone is satisfied with the truth, you can always delete it. That would be a great end to this. TY in advance. MrD.
@bjesienThat is awesome. That is a legitimate Klipsch Heritage sticker, as I have seen hundreds of them, and they are not dinosaur stickers either, as you have a pair of the IVs, correct? All folks have to do is look at your system page and see for themselves. This has been sickening to me, that one man could have been mistaken, or was in a very competitive mood when he wrote that. My mid 80s Lascalas have similar labels. After this, maybe we can back to the best speaker option for the OP. Thank you @bjesienEnjoy ! BTW, it did not make sense to me to photograph my labels and post, as this was about Fortes specifically.
Well I have been in the klipsch camp for many years until recently. And if I decide to go back to horns again, a Volti product is definitely in my future.
My original setup was Node 2I, Audio Research LS2, Parasound A21 with CW IV tilted in passed listening position. Imaging was not precise, but the sound stage was immersive. It made walls disappeared.
With the addition of Pontus II, CW IV tilted in before listening position, every instrument sounded the way it should, more real, as the band is there in my living room.
Switched to the Willsenton R8 om triode mode, the slight fatigue went away after rolled with many different tubes, 6550, EL34, 6SL7 and 6SN7 of different brands. However, the music does not sound real anymore.
Changed the R8 to Muzishare X9 with 300B, the magic returns. No doubt different tubes yield different sound characteristics, I finally settle with the Linai B300B-H, I forgot to mention somewhere alone added the REL HT-10.
Someone mentioned the CW IV 15-inch woofer is not sufficient for bass. Well, I had similar thought for a while. It all changed after I added the SMSL PL200 into the system. CD are practically collecting dusk. Once a while, the OPPO Blu Ray player used as transport to play some old CD. The new PL200 has no sub out, nor the the Pontus II. I didn't feel anything was missing in the bass region. The CW IV is fast, kick drum, snare drum, different bass nodes are clearly distinguished. The treat off is badly recorded CD will now be more stand out but non musically fatiguing.
BlueSound is great and quick in response to questions. With the mini optical out of the Node 2i to PL200 Optical in and optical out to Pontus II, the REV sub is now also involved. Count this a very happy CW IV customer. Almost forgot to mention CW customer services is also top notch.
@bodega Thanks for pointing out the change. Now it only strongly implies that they’re made it China.
The Klipsch company is coy about revealing where their speakers are made, or perhaps more importantly where parts of their speakers are made. It is possible to say that a speaker is made by craftspeople in Hope, AR, while many of the parts of the speaker, including the cabinet are made elsewhere. It is no secret that Klipsch has parts and in some cases whole speakers made in China. They may not want people to know or to focus on that fact, and I can understand that – fair enough. But here’s a point that I’ll make which is much more important than whether or not they are made in China. When it comes to the low-quality construction of the Forte cabinet, I would submit that it would be better for Klipsch if they came out and stated that it was built in China. That way they would at least have an excuse for the poor quality. To say that the cabinet of the Forte, which I think is among the lowest quality speaker cabinets ever made, is made by the craftspeople in the shop in Hope, AR is an insult to those good folks. If the Klipsch company handed their employees the keys and asked them to build a speaker cabinet, I don’t believe they would choose to build them with the cheap press-board material that is used in the Forte.
This is the tactic that we see in journalism called, "Just asking questions..." (As in, "Is Politician X truly born in the USA? Some say yes, but others say know. Just asking questions.)
Obviously, he could have just removed any of this triggering language related to "China" and just talk about the specific construction of the speakers -- as Danny of GR Research does. Just compare apples with apples and leave the triggering language out of it. If the cabinets are badly made, who cares where they were badly made -- unless you're trying to get some ideological mileage out of sentiments about China.
I've never been entirely satisfied with the construction of Klipsch speakers, despite owning one currently and in the past. However, it's important to acknowledge that most speakers, regardless of their price (mine go up to $20k), have identifiable flaws.
The owner points out all the flaws of the company he learned from and copied. It shows a level of no-holds- barred bravery that caters perfectly to the high testosterone ballers like we are. I'd love to see a durability test, like driving a truck over the speakers, and sharing that on YouTube. Or even better, let's have the Audiophiliac put on some football pads and crush those boxes. I'd happily contribute $100 to see either of these happen.
I never felt the Forte model was in the class of the other Heritage models. In fact, it took years since it’s introduction for Klipsch to proclaim the Forte model as a "Heritage". I always added internal bracing to the cabinets (as well as my damping procedures), and mostly, elevated them on cinderblocks with material between the Forte and the blocks. A much better presentation. Keep them far from the rear wall, whenever possible. These were for clients of mine who had them. Me, I started with CW verticals, CW horizontals (standard), Lascala, Khorn, and now back to Lascala. I love the Lascala design. I love my system.
I have the Forte on a second system with a Leben 300xs and enjoy the combination. They're not lifelong speakers but like everything else I've ever owned, will add to my enjoyment of hearing new things. The Cornwalls had a bit more effortlessness and the Forte's IMO have a little more detail without being too bright. I found the CW4 a little more relaxed for my tastes. I played the CW4 with an Audionote Cobra, McIntosh C28 and MC2125, and my favorite, the Coda CSIB with 18 wpc A.
There are many great horn speakers. Cessaro is the best i've heard and come to know a bit.
@silverfoxvtx1800congrats on the Razz! They will be amazing. I'd listen to that playlist for a few days prior and just change them out. You will get a good idea right out of the box. Play them harder when you can for a couple hundred hours and you will notice changes.
It hardly matters where the Forte 4 cabinets are being made now. The Chinese know how to do veneer laminated MDF, and the cabinets themselves are fairly easy to build. The Chinese have been making MDF panels for years and at the same quality level as the US made stuff.
I was a professional furniture maker for years. My speakers previous to my current Cornwall 4’s were Forte 3’s. I am sure that the Volti’s are better made and perhaps sound better which Is why I don’t see the need for excoriating the perceived competition with questionable assertions.
It hardly matters where the Forte 4 cabinets are being made now. The Chinese know how to do veneer laminated MDF, and the cabinets themselves are fairly easy to build. The Chinese have been making MDF panels for years and at the same quality level as the US made stuff.
No, it matters a lot if the details are factored in. In the post on the Volti website (now changed a bit) it not only said they were made in China, but that they were like cardboard and very flimsy. There was a clear connection between country of origin and shoddiness of manufacture in that statement. So whatever your experience or opinion -- undoubtedly correct about what you’re thinking about in particular -- your comment is tangential to what was focused upon here.
Americans make good stuff -- and they make crap.
Chinese make good stuff -- and they make crap.
Those generalizations are to be avoided. But again, the original website post spoke for itself.
people say they are more refined I dont know what that means
I think your listening descriptions show that you DO know what it means.
You said:
it’s definitely all in the midrange….just a tad not bright but just a little more that I don’t get with the Forte IVs
I just cranked the song Black Day by Monolink a very dynamic song, cracked it way up and was clean and I just let it go…the Fortes didn’t sound good way up there to my ears…..
You're hearing exactly what you're describing. The upper mids and highs are NOT making you cringe and you're NOT getting fatigued. Extra volume is equating to extra fun, not "turn it down."
That's, at least, a partial definition of "refined," as I understand it.
From what you describe about the build quality and sound quality of the Fortes, I would have moved on long ago. Are they on the Audiogon chopping block as we speak?
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