Competitive class D amp suggestions

We will see. 

In my second system recently i was using Cherry Megaschino (which now needs a repair of one channel), Mankey Stingray tube integrated, PS Audio Stellar S300 and most recently, since about one week or so, Nuprime ST-10. The latter is better than S300 in almost all aspects except that it does get hot. If the Voyager will be notably better than ST-10 then I may try it in the main system with my tube SET integrated. So far, the latter amp could not have been bitten, unlikely Voyager will surpass it.

WOW ! To him not knowing.....or caring.....

I ordered LSA GaN Voyager 350, should be here by Thursday. I will try it first in my second system. If I would like it then I may try it also in my main system. I will post what I will see. 

COVID is what happened

Lately he had some problems with  suppliers, and he was intensively working on a new MK3 Megaschino...

P.S. He was relatively young, do you know what happened with him?

Ralph, thank you very much for this, very, very, sad information. I didn't know him personally but we communicated a lot by email. One can say how a person is based on a letter exchange. He was always positive making good things and was doing that practically alone. He was, really, a very nice guy. Just to tell you that i am writing this message with tears in my eyes, a person whom I never knew personally. He had two daughters  i think. I will miss him...

Must be living under a rock not to know that Tommy died.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/rip-tom-o-brian-of-the-cherry-amp-co

@niodari Sorry, Tom passed away last December.

@axo0oxa thanks for this complement. You may still have more successful jumps, you never know. I made similar jumps also replacing amplifiers, and am not sure if more jumps are required. Compared to your tube SET amplifier, what exited you the most in your Vivace amp (except its cool look, i understand that these "tubes" looking as candles at night, may give an intimate peace-like feeling)?

"The sound is extremely very clean" ---> "The sound is *NOT*  extremely clean"

Its easy enough to hear. You don't have to take it on faith.

@atmasphere, this would be true if i were living in the US (it is too complicated to import equipment to Mexico for trial test, each time you receive a gear, you have to pay quite a lot of $$$ due to the duties/taxes). 

Meanwhile, as a "temporary solution", i got a Nuprime ST 10 amp from a local dealer, a reasonably priced used one  (i was left with no class D amp - the right channel in my Cherry Megaschino is almost silent, i  tried to contact  Tommy O'Brien lately without any success so far. the site is there but the emails come back, the telephone is out of service. He was personally dealing with most things, i suggest there is nobody else that can reply or take care of support. Hopefully Tommy is fine (a nice guy), but have no idea on what is happening with his company). 

After 3 days of auditioning, i decided to keep the amp. In fact, it has surpassed my expectations. It is quite fast, dynamic, airy with a considerable sound stage,  frequency extension is good, details are fine. The sound is extremely very clean but still the distortion is tolerable. It is a non-standard class D design, it does get quite hot. The sound is slightly colored, the base is a bit exaggerated, heights are clear, but a bit colored. The overall sound characteristic resembles Pass amps, if you like them, you may like ST 10 (much cheaper, much less power consumption...). This amp can be better than all (more expensive) class D amps i had except the Megaschino (which is broken now). 

After a few days of auditioning,  I suggest that this amp deserves  consideration,  it is a serious piece of gear. In fact, the reviews i read more or less objectively describe  performance of this amp. I wonder how much better could the overall sound be with other available options including more or less reasonably priced Voyager 350 and Orchard amps.  

@smargo  “i probably have said that im not in the market for a new amp - about 100 times”.

😊😀, yep, that can happen.

this is what I always wanted to hear!  It only remains to experience it unless it is taken as faith

@niodari Its easy enough to hear. You don't have to take it on faith.

@niodari being retired and having just closed my business I had a little extra money just sitting there in the account I needed to close out. I was totally satisfied with all my components but my amplifier, which had served me well for years. I decided the amplifier was the last piece in my long journey and the last piece to my puzzle. I went for the Vivace over the Audion because I just happened to have the money at that moment in time and I did not want to feel I should have gone for more power, since my biggest reason for this last upgrade was controlling the bass drivers with more authority. All the additional benefits that came with the amplifier were a huge pleasant surprise. What I learned in upgrading my preamplifier in terms of going for the gusto held true with the amplifier as well. Sometimes in this journey you reach the point that you need to leap big to really hear major improvements. Luckily everything aligned for this last jump. I hope this answers your question.

My Salon 2's are very happy with the Storm PA8. 4x1000w in bridged mode. All the others on 3rd floor. :-)

 

IMO/IME the breakthrough has already occurred- you can now finally buy a solid state amp that sounds better than the best tubes can offer (with the same liquidity, no harshness but with greater detail including depth)

@atmasphere this is what I always wanted to hear!  It only remains to experience it unless it is taken as faith (unfortunately, none of us saw the God, even ones with the strongest faith, so less probably that i will be able to see him ever on this land).

@axo0oxa thanks for a detailed overview on your Vivace.  I think your points of view with be taken into the consideration, certainly it does not sound like a joke. Why you decided to go with Vivace and not with less expensive Audion ? Anyway, apparently you realized your dream, which is the most important thing.

ghdprentice:

i probably have said that im not in the market for a new amp - about 100 times - until i hear an amp that i really like a lot - its amazing how sound quality - if its good - changes my mind about not being in the market for something - if enough people really like it - im all ears and my wallet is more than open - within reason

@axo0oxa,

Thanks for the excellent post. Thoughtful and detailed. I am not in the market for a new amp, but have always wondered / been suspicious of Class D. Having been in this pursuit for over 50 years… new ideas frequently fail instantly to give the advertised benefits (like the CD).

Glad you addressed the look. I was really put off by the single tube look. While I am normally drawn mostly to sound quality… sometimes a look is just too off-putting, the Vivace is certainly that for me. But good to hear that in person they are better lookin.

The OP asked Alberto Guerra (AGD) how his amplifiers sounds, well I own the Vivace and I can say they sound "wonderful". They bring a very live feel to the music. They are an "end game" amplifier in my opinion. I went from a pair of tube mono blocks (Consonance Cyber 800SE) that I loved, to trying a pair of Electrocompaniet AW 400 solid state mono block amplifiers in my search for a little more bottom end without loosing the tube magic. I did quickly go back to my tube mono blocks not being happy with the mid and upper frequency ranges that solid state brought. More bass was not worth loosing the "tube magic" of my mono blocks. For a short moment in time I had considered going with a Pass Labs Class A design but due to the heat, expense of running them and their weight I decided to explore Class D now that it was coming of age. After reading numerous reviews on the many quality Class D designs I came across a number of glowing reviews and testimonials on this new line of unique amplifiers designed and built by AGD. The two amplifiers I had my eye on certainly were unique looking so I reached out to Alberto and had a number of long conversations with him. Finally I decided to audition the Vivace and he shipped it out to my house on the east coast for an audition. This was the quickest audition I ever had in my life. Within the period of one song, before it ended, I knew I had a winner on my hands. I had my tube mono blocks off to the side because I felt I would be switching them back and forth listening for improvements. Well within one day I knew the switching back and forth was not necessary. I just carried each one up to the third floor and that is were they are now. Never once did I switch them out, it was so apparent these were game changers. The Vivace just blew both of my previous amplifiers out of the water along with any thoughts of a Class A amplifier.

The Vivace are quick, detailed, full sounding amplifiers that can awaken any speaker (mine being a pair of KEF Reference 3). I was in disbelief. Every aspect of my speakers sound improved radically. I auditioned them for a week straight listening for hours at a time trying to find fault. I invited my audio friends over to listen and they all were blown away at the improvement and the look of the glowing acrylic top and the tube. Yes it may appear a bit too much when you see them not lit up and the tube glowing a reddish orange, but once they are on and the room is darkened they are gorgeous and not over the top at all. Luckily they sound even better than they look.

The sound stage is expansive beating my tube mono blocks ability to through a wonderful sound stage. Not night and day but it is noticeably deeper and taller. The positioning of musicians within this sound stage creates a very real experience. The musicians hold their places and when two musicians share a mic or are standing close on the stage you can "see" and hear the smallest gap between them as they stand or sit there and perform for you. It can be a very intimate experience at times how real it sounds in terms of placement of the music in the room. Obviously this happens on the better recordings and as everyone knows it is very recording dependent. The low end to mid has much more authority and detail than even the Electrocompaniet provided with it's 400 watts per channel. The Vivace does not come anywhere near that power but I have never felt it lacking in power to drive my speakers and I doubt it would struggle with the most power hungry of speakers out there. The mid range is beautiful sounding, vocals stand out and are articulate. Instruments have so much more vibrant detail to them. Up right bass and violins have the sound of wood and you can almost feel the bow drawing across the strings. Eric Dolphy's "Hat and Beard" from Out to Lunch is an incredible song to listen to which highlights this amplifiers ability at detail retrieval and ability to create an incredible sound stage. Cyrus Chestnut's "Cornbread Pudding" showcases the amplifiers ability to reproduce piano and upright bass. If you are familiar with these two songs then you know that this amplifier is up to almost any task since it handles them effortlessly in terms of retrieval of the smallest detail that brings these pieces to such life that you feel the performers right there in the room and can hear the slightest and most delicate of details.

These Class D amplifiers pair up beautifully with my tube preamplifier (Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme) which I am sure is helping with the sound stage and detail retrieval, but previous amplifiers could not bring so much life to my music so yes they pair well with tubes but I am sure will work with any quality preamplifier. As much as I love my preamplifier, based on the quality of this amplifier I would to hear how it pairs with the AGD Andante preamplifier/steaming DAC that I have read about. Again another costly piece of equipment and well above my price point so I am very happy with what I have but it would be interesting to hear how the pairing would sound.

Concerning the glass piece that extends out of the acrylic top, well at first I was a little taken back by it, but it truly is a piece of art and nothing can compare to how beautiful this amplifier looks at night in a room where the light level is low. In addition, as previously mentioned, it is extremely easy to pull the glass tube out and switch it with another module or if I were to transport the amplifier pull the tube and box it. The packaging the amplifier came in is another story and I am sure helped to raise the price but that is the point, everything about this amplifier is high end from the packaging to the design to the sound and especially to the care and support Alberto himself gives you. What you are not getting is a card board box sent to your house with the corners bashed in and lots of Styrofoam and peanuts all over the floor and if an issue arises you are not put on holding waiting for someone to answer and resolve your problem.

Yes this is a very expensive amplifier but far from the most expensive. I have been in this hobby for years slowly growing my system and the one thing I am sure everyone knows as you spend more money on each piece within your system the better your system sounds (sure some mistakes are made on the way). You cannot expect a $300 dollar amplifier to sound as good as a $3000 dollar one and so on as you go up. Yes diminishing returns but from my experience going from a $4000 dollar amplifier, which was approximately the list cost on my tube mono blocks to the Vivace was far from a small upgrade. It was actually one of the most noticeable upgrades I have made. The other was going from a Conrad Johnson Preamplifier to the Backert Labs. After years and years of upgrading and trying to reach the the best system that I could afford I am very glad I discovered this amplifier and in my opinion it is worth every penny I scrapped together to afford it. I love its look and everyone should at sometime get a chance to see this amplifier in a darkened room, it is magnificent sight to behold, but more importantly everyone should get a chance to listen to it. That is really its selling point even if it is expensive and it has a faux tube in the sense that it is not a vacuum tube. I am just glad I took the chance and reached out to Alberto and had the amplifier sent to my house for that audition.

Hi Ralph: Do you any plans for a Class D preamp in the future?

Technically that is possible but we've no plans currently.

How one can know that it has "enough power"? Strange things happen. I have tried large Thiel speakers with a 200 watts class AB amp and i felt that, may be, the power was not enough since it sounded a bit "forced" at moderately high volumes (if this a correct way to judge if the power that an amp can give is enough for a speaker). But i don't observe similar things with a tube SET 5.5 watts amp connected to the same speakers.

Clearly the amp has enough power, unless its actually damaged in some way.  The 'forced' sound may simply be distortion though. Keep in mind that not all class D amps sound the same- I imagine some can indeed sound 'forced' and other amps simply don't.

with the possible exception of the sound at overload (but for that just make sure you have enough power).

Thanks Ralph, your point of view is clear. The last is a delicate question for me, at least: How one can know that it has "enough power"? Strange things happen. I have tried large Thiel speakers with a 200 watts class AB amp and i felt that, may be, the power was not enough since it sounded a bit "forced" at moderately high volumes (if this a correct way to judge if the power that an amp can give is enough for a speaker). But i don't observe similar things with a tube SET 5.5 watts amp connected to the same speakers. Perhaps, there is a more reliable way to check whether the power of an amp is indeed enough for a speaker?

Hi Ralph: Do you any plans for a Class D preamp in the future?

This is a very strong and challenging statement, especially from a tube amplified producer (i appreciate it very much). I did believe in this a few years ago. Nevertheless, so far, as mentioned earlier in this thread, i did not find a class D amp that sounds as good as  my 5 watts tube SET class A amp. Perhaps, Orchard and Atmosphere  already produce such class D amplifiers... 

@orchardaudio and @atmasphere, do you expect to have a further breakthrough is the design of your class D amps in near future? 

I realized that i don't have an answer on the following (perhaps stupid, forgive me) question. Would it make a sense to combine somehow GaN transistors  with Purifi modules in a single amplifier? 

To the last question, no. The reason why gets really technical fast!

To the former question, I suspect any manufacturer in high end audio is looking for ways to improve their product, but I don't expect a 'breakthrough'; IMO/IME the breakthrough has already occurred- you can now finally buy a solid state amp that sounds better than the best tubes can offer (with the same liquidity, no harshness but with greater detail including depth), with the possible exception of the sound at overload (but for that just make sure you have enough power).

D-Sonic amps. I owned the "800s M3a" for a few months and was recently thinking of getting one back since I was considering a low cost and decent sounding amp. They use Pascal modules. I did not get it since I did some other changes the negated the need for an extra amp.

I did not perceive any harshness in my Voyager. It was just a very clean sound, especially so after the EVS mods. It certainly was not warm, like a new KRELL XD or a CODA #8. The Voyager was closer sonically to the Benchmark AHB2.

Some amplifier power supplies/transformers can create high frequency vibrations when they are not properly isolated (Ric Schultz/EVS addresses that with his mods), as well as external vibration from the speakers feeding back into the kit

Other very suspect components that can contribute to high frequency glare etc, are the transport, the dac, and the digital cable

hth

@tweak1 , thanks for the suggestion. Is the vibration you mentioned caused by CD players and speakers (I understand that amplifiers cause no vibration)?

Don't overlook this, too; there have been very good reports on its sonics.

https://www.dedicatedaudio.com/products/bel-canto-design-ref501s-stereo-amplifier

I have a pair of Bel Canto REF500M amps that I bought here, and love them. Lots of detail and plenty of power to drive my KEF LS50 Meta speakers, which are not very sensitive. I upgraded from some Rotel RB-850 class AB amps, so my setup was never expensive, more mid-fi, but I think the Bel Cantos are the biggest upgrade to sound that I’ve had in my modest system. Bel Canto also has more expensive gear in their Black EX and Black ranges that could be worth auditioning in person if possible.

The supposed harshness in the Voyagers high frequencies: As a long time audiophile, I can tell you that vibration and isolation make a huge difference in sound quality. All my kit is currently resting on Nobsound Springs (see Amazon), which are very cost effective, and downright cheap considering what they do. FYI: there is a forum page about how to use them.

As mentioned, I have a LSA Voyager and did not like the sound using the supplied feet. Ditto the supplied power cord.

Other things that matter: my Emerald Physics 3.4s (no longer in production) have 12" woofers with 1" concentric polyster tweeters. If one's speakers have metal tweeters and low quality ICs/PCs the sound of any component will be compromised. Also, the source and its cabling, lack of good isolation/vibration will negatively affect the sound

hth

@niodari, other than the Class D amps I previously mentioned, as well as the Merrill amps, I have no other listening experiences I can share. I will say this, it is worth paying attention to some of the unique design aspects of the Atma-Sphere amps when compared to other GaN amps. As Ralph spoke to in his post they eliminate what is wrong with solid state amps in general (and too an extent tube amps as well), not just GaN amps. As a tube amp designer it was a revelation to him, and he has been doing this for nearly half a century.

ATI?

@clio09 can you help with another feedback before I take the final decision

do you think that Orchard GaN monoblocks (150 or otherwise 500 watts) can be any better than Voyager ( in particular in terms of the distortion in high frequencies)?  Which of these amps you would choose?

@clio09 , clean highs is very important. At the same time, this sale came out now and somehow is motivating me to take this choice. At least, i will know what can be wrong and will see how critical this issue is, thanks again. At this moment, perhaps, i am not still convinced/ready to pay twice more for something that i have never heard. In any case, i have the 5.5 watts SET amp here in my main system. 

@niodari first I will say at it's price point, especially if it was purchased with the introductory discount, the LSA amp is a good value. There is a lot to like about it. However, the upper frequencies did exhibit some distortion, it's overall balance is inconsistent as a result. For example, trumpet would start to sound a bit harsh and grainy, almost aggressive and lacking smoothness in comparison to the Atma-Sphere amps. You can hear this on drum cymbals as well, especially in more complex passages. The violin loses some of it's natural tone. The Atma-Sphere, like a well designed OTL, which Ralph manufactures as well, doesn't exhibit this level of distortion. It is a very smooth and balanced presentation. If you go back and re-read his post above he provides the answer to this very clearly.

@clio09 , thank you for this post. 

In comparison to the LSA, the LSA came off grainy in the upper frequencies, it was clearly heard after listening to the Atma-Sphere amps.

 What you precisely mean with "grainy in upper frequencies", can you be a bit more specific on sonic differences between Atmasphere class d and LSA Voyager amps in different frequency ranges?

I've known Ralph for a while and have been an Atma-Sphere customer for some time owning an MP-3 preamp and M-60 OTLs. I have had the Class D amps in my system now for about 6 weeks. In the simplest of terms I will say they made the OTLs obsolete. On top of that I have lent them to 2 people and both of them placed an order after their listening comparisons.

I have Bel Canto REF1000 MkIIs and while I think they are a very good Class D amp, I prefer the Atma-Sphere. In my opinion they have all the attributes of a tube amp with the transparency and speed of an OTL, as well as no heat to deal with and they are much more power consumption friendly. In comparison to the LSA, the LSA came off grainy in the upper frequencies, it was clearly heard after listening to the Atma-Sphere amps.

The M1200s are now $4398. Stock Ice Edge boards but their own tube input. Ric Schultz introduced  his EVS1200 a good year before them using the same Ice Edge modules, but in one chassis, plus all his technical and mechanical skills. No longer made, it was ~ $2500. I have one, that I would consider selling it at that price

Class D competing with class A? No way..two completely different animals. 

@evank "I have the Rogue Sphinx 3 and with the stock tubes it was very thin sounding. I put in a pair of Mullards and it beefed everything up"

I have not heard the Rogue Sphinx V3, so I can’t say that it is or is not thin sounding with stock tubes. Herb did not mention anything about it sounding thin in his review. Perhaps it depends on what you are pairing it with, source and speakers? It is good to know that you found that it actually responds to tube rolling. That could be some fun. I like the no nonsense look of it, especially in the black. The black makes those knobs pop, plus the graphics are more legible. Herb liked it paired with the Lintons, kef ls50, and the Goldenear BRX. I don’t like that it has increased in price by 200 bucks, but like everything else, it is the norm nowadays.

Primare makes some great Class D amplifiers, they do not have the coldness some class D amplifiers might have. Indeed they sound liquid, have the clarity and the black bacground. Aavaik makes some great class D amplifiers as well but at a much higher price point. 

However, nothing can replace a Pass Labs class A amplifier weighting 100lbs having 2KVA power supply, be sure about that.

@orchardaudio and @atmasphere thank you for your comments and the link. I read them with an interest, they sound convincing. 

Class D offers a way around that, by allowing for profound amounts of feedback that is very difficult to do even with modern devices in AB circuits! With such high amounts of feedback its possible to build an amp that is both low in distortion while relaxed and detailed better than the best tube amps. To some this last statement might seem a bit weird but the experience of amps with low distortion not sounding all that good is common. At this point (and take this from someone who has been at this over 50 years) I'm very convinced that tube power amps are on borrowed time.

This is a very strong and challenging statement, especially from a tube amplified producer (i appreciate it very much). I did believe in this a few years ago. Nevertheless, so far, as mentioned earlier in this thread, i did not find a class D amp that sounds as good as  my 5 watts tube SET class A amp. Perhaps, Orchard and Atmosphere  already produce such class D amplifiers... 

@orchardaudio and @atmasphere, do you expect to have a further breakthrough is the design of your class D amps in near future? 

I realized that i don't have an answer on the following (perhaps stupid, forgive me) question. Would it make a sense to combine somehow GaN transistors  with Purifi modules in a single amplifier? 

How is the PS Audio Gear? 

I also had a Stellar S300 for around a year.  Drove my Maggies flawlessly, always ran cool, and it was a steal at that price.  I replaced it with a Bryston 4B SST2 that fell into my lap at a price I couldn't resist.  I am sorry that I sold the S300, but used the proceeds for another upgrade.

ps audio having a great sale on their m1200 monos now for month of may

@kuribo , thanks for your input on Peachtree Gan 400. It is important to have different opinions here and your arguments seem reasonable.  

@agdproduction , thank you for your input. 

@ricevs, your comments were very useful, at least i clarified some things for myself. Design issues also have some (superficial) importance. These "tubes" and the AGD amps look look attractive to me. I would now wish to know how they sound, especially, given that they are about twice more expensive then most of the comparable amps.  (..."making money is good..."  (:  😉) 

+1 on the Primare. I also have the I32. The I35 should be noticeably better, I expect. 

I had the PS Audio M700s when MSRP was a realistic $2k. I liked them but they didn't couple well in my large room. Their M1200s were on my radar, but took too long to bring to market (just as well with their absurd $12K MSRP) I replaced them with EVS 1200 (exact same modules as the PS Audio, but highly modified by Ric Schultz @ 1/4 the MSRP), and though I raved about it and the benefits of 2-3 times the wpc, when I got my Voyager GaN 350 (~ half the EVSs power) it locked into my room in a way that the only other other amp I owned ever did; the Kinergetics KBA 75, pure class A power meter spinner