China already has put new tariffs on ours. They believe in all of the trade money going to their pockets. [www.nytimes] There is a plus side. The gear might be resistant to radiation from the lead content. Hifihvn (Answers | This Thread)
And who's fault is that? Not much leverage in the negoitations when your competitor is financing billions of the budget and COUNTING. If I was China, why not get all you can. You got to be a moron not going for the jugular.
Remember a company's responsibility is to the share holders and NOT to a local communities economically development so it will do what's best for the company's interest. It's up to the government to create a business friendly environment where a company wants to stay, invest and create jobs. This environment can be in US, India ... anywhere in the world. It worked when Toyota, Honda, BMW ... opened plants in the US.
With our current administration anti-business policies, companies are hording record amount of cash and don't want to invest and create jobs. The best policies are where both sides wins. Companies get incentive to invest in a community. The community gets an increased tax base from the company, new job creation and potential spawning more new business.
The uninformed always bashing businesses ... How about the feds intervening with Boeing opening another plan in So. Carolina and because So. Carolina is not a right to work state, unions (Obama supporters) are fighting against the new plant.
Now if you're a company that is friendly to the administration and CEO works on the job creation initiative, you pay zero taxes on 5 billion of revenue and able to open an airplane engines plant in China without scrutiny.
I should have read the link before my last post but having now read it, I'd like to point out that we aren't far behind. Politicians on the right (Newt, Perry, the govenor of PA and others) have already called for the elimination of child labor laws here in America. Gotta bring those wages down to stay competitive for the highest return on their investments. They're legally obliged to.
Blame your corrupt government as the "ethics free zone" because they're the ones who allowed the horse out of the barn. Corporations are bound by laws. Period.
MAC would have to live with 50% profit margins if they made things in the USA...instead of the 80% they make now. If you prefer Classe' made in Canada...stop buying it. Simple.
I refuse to buy Canadian products anyway...something about hockey....
greed is the evil by-product of capitalism for *some* folks. i know many business owners who operate ethically to maximize profits. problem is...they are all small business owners. seems as the business grows...the *need* for more profits also grows....thus the greed factor. this greed often leads to ethical lines being erased and a "what ever it takes to succeed/make more money" attitude.
capitalism is a system, greed is not. when functioning correctly, with oversight to insure a level playing field and rules are followed...capitalism is a great system. when the oversight fails and greed is allowed to prevail....it can make life miserable for the masses while the "capitalists" run away with all the loot.
seems that is where we are now imho. lets see where it takes us from here.
btw... Classe products will no longer be a future consideration for me. forgetting about the people who "got you there" is not my style. i've had enough of this kinds crap.
But I am concerned a little about Canada. Is it an increasing trend there too? Anyway, I am tired of this brand of advanced capitalism and am going to become a hunter-gatherer which means I come and "gather" what I want.
I am a proud Canadian and was always proud of some of our great Companies- SIMAUDIO,BRYSTON,CLASSE,BLUE CIRCLE,etc.....Matter of fact,I bought 2 Classe CA-400 and a CA 300 but sold them due to their B&W ties and China preproduction.I think Classe has lost alot of grounds here as their products are no cheaper than others.I personally am done with them... But what makes it worse for them is that it is audiophiles complaining here and they are the purchasers and they will be getting fewer and fewer over the next 10 years. Enjoy your music.
Paul McGowan of PS Audio fame tried the Chinise Connection for a number of years. Now he has brought all of his production back to the states and his products are now "all American" except I would guess some of the resistors, capacitors, etc. may come from other places in the world. It would be difficult to build a product wholly made in the USA. I think he is to be commended regardless if you purchase PS Audio equipment or not.
Here is scary news I learned the other day on NPR, the USA no longer produces any antibiotic meds. All antibiotics are made overseas because of cheap labor and there are few if any inspections allowed by the FDA in these labs. So if another World War ever starts (as some have predicted and let all the heavens of all faiths forbid) do we expect the very countries we may be opposing to send us medicines for our wounded and semiconductors and steel for our jets, tanks, etc.? How short sighted we and our elected politicians have become! If we could go back in time 60 years, I'm sure Hitler and his Axis would have sold the Allies these items during the war if we couldn't make them ourselves. 😊 Globalization and the quest for profits be damned, one has to look out for one's best interest and our elected and greedy Senators and Representatives both in the Republicrook party and the Democrook party should be kicked out on their fannies and tarred and feathered for their stupidity and seeming inability to plan for the future, if not their greed and corruption. (Oh, I'm certainly not implying that all of our politicians are greedy and stupid!)(Maybe a better term than stupid is historically and economically uneducated!) One thing about the Chinese I greatly admire, they plan not for the now, but tens of years into into the future. Our politicians seem only concerned with their next election.
I cannot find a company in China to make my buggy whip. Perhaps a USA company could do so, but they also turned me down. Seems the EPA and the FDA has a rule against such devices. PETA is suing me. What's a guy who wants to create a few jobs. Everybody needs to read or re-read Smith's 'Wealth of Nations'. He is the one who got us into all this.
As I understand it, Classe will be built in the same factory that B&W has been built in for many years. B&W controls the production and the quality. Classe will do the same. They are not simply throwing the production over their shoulder to some contract manufacturer in China and hoping for the best.
It is my understanding that the first products they got from the new plant they completely disassembled, piece by piece, to check on the quality of the parts and the build and they were completely satisfied.
For those complaining about the sound of some of the new products, doesn't that have more to do with the Canadian design team than where new products are made? The design team should spec the design, the parts, the board layout, the tolerances etc.
I hate to see manufacturing go to China, but people should understand that there is a model of production in China that can preserve the quality. It is just up to the parent company to insure it happens.
This is so sad because if any industry was still capable of manufacturing here in the west, it is High End Audio. These companies are tiny and turn out very few components a year compared to someone like Sony, etc. This small production applies itself very well to old school manufacturing methods and ecomomics. We desperately need to keep these jobs right here at all costs. Not doing so shows me Classe is being greedy and gutless. You know that Classe prices won't drop as a result of this move and the concerns about "teething" problems are very real despite China's ability to deliver the goods when given the proper specs, budget, and guidance.
Perhaps Classe should build the same amp in Canada and China and sell them at $5,000 and $3,000 respectively and see what people end up buying - I suspect money talks.
Does seem like rising labor costs for "skilled" labor in China, and with increasing transportation costs, that the cheap labor model which has been China's comparative advantage is diminishing over time. I've read some companies have notice and have or are planning onshoring.
If you buy things made by slave labor you too will be enslaved. We ALL know Lenin was not a nice guy ,on the broken clock is right twice a day factoid it doesn't bear mentioning. Yes there are shades of gray but the people who harp on this are usually trying to excuse themselves for acting on the many things that are just black and white.
If America loses this secret war, we (as a world leader) are finished.
The country is already on life support and it will take quite a bit to get it back on its feet, let alone back to its former position as a world economic leader.
Trouble is China is NOT going to be anywhere near the nice guys we were.
Very true, the Chinese government is licking its chops.
(Trouble is we were really not very nice guys,..)
Glad someone realizes this.
As for Lenin, he was bad, but the Tsar's before him and Stalin after him were far worse.
Jea, market share and sales volume? Unless capitalism doesn't actually work; though this may be a hobby where paying $2,000 more for the exact same product may actually make it sound better to the owner.
Slave labor? I hardly think so. Too much Pearl Buck and demonization - at least for this type of product. Maybe commodities and cheap, low value added products. True, China's labor practices may be closer to 19th century US, but not for long, they are squeezing 200 years of development in 20-30 years.
Publ, Mao, the largest mass murdered in history tried the 'Great Leap Forward'. Apparently back yard steel mills don't work.
By the time Mao went room tempreture, he was responsible for the deaths of 60 to 70 million Chinese....more than Hitler and Stalin put together, maybe.
The final toll of China's current modernization efforts are yet to be told. The human, environmental and sociatal costs will be incalculable.
Too muddle headed on issues of relevancy to respond. Stalin and Mao were monstrous, that wasn't really the issue and you don't have to persuade me on that count. If you want to believe that Classe amps will be built in a sweatshop with slave labor, I think you are delusional - which doesn't mean I'm a member of the Mao fan club.
I spent three weeks in China in 2010, went to a lot of places westerners don't often go, and had a chance to have some extended (and frank) discussions with a party member who works on economic development for the government in Beijing. China has huge economic challenges -- they have ten million peasants (their word -- we would call them "farmers") moving into the urban population centers each year -- air and water quality in the major population centers make the 1960s in the United States look idyllic by comparison. And working conditions in the major manufacturing centers are abysmal.
So this creates, for us, an almost insurmountable challenge -- we are attempting to compete with a massively growing economy that has an artificially depressed currency, a desperate need to feed and house a population almost four times ours, and a willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve economic security and prosperity -- even at an extraordarily high human and environmental cost.
Our advantages are creativity, collaboration (not a skill being taught in Chinese schools or businesses), open communication, and compassion. Our challenge is to use these things to find our niche in the global economy -- the goods and services we can provide to the rest of the world more efficiently than anyone else. And to do that, we need innovative thinking across the board, from business and government alike, on a scale we've never experienced before.
That sounds very accurate. Accelerated development and catch up at any price. The hope is that a growing middle class will bring about improvements to their society as a whole. It seems a strong middle class is the foundation of progressive societies. They are not there yet, but the urban middle class is certainly growing and PCI growing at a very rapid pace.
I assume that Classe assumes that there enough folks willing to buy goods made in than not, and that the product would be of equal quality with Quebec QC over site. I think the makers of Prada assumed the same.
I personally only own hand made products made in the US and Canada, but that is because I thought they were the best products. I would even consider a quality Japaneese product, in spite of Pearl Harbor and Manchuria. I think US should rely on making the very best products, not the cheapest. We can do it, and it works pretty well for German industry.
Elizabeth put it in a very mild politically correct way, unlike the way I would have. China is not a country, it is a civilization. Like India. We'll be watching...
Germany is a country,the USA is an Empire.Germany is a Social Democracy,the US is not and so has no need to consider the overall good. Democracy in general is merely the political system of capitalism, preferred because in all places and times fools will always greatly outnumber the wise. Ever notice how all those its "your sacred duty to vote" ads are run by the largest corps?
I have owned four pieces of Classe equipment. All were purchased new. They were all enjoyed for many years and sold here on AudioGon. Undoubtedly they are still performing well and providing continued enjoyment.
I will not purchase any Hi End gear manufactured in China. I don't care where it is engineered or how many quality control procedures are implemented in the factory. Will the new Classe still be playing 20 years later?
They are taking decent paying jobs from North Americans and handing them to China in the name of increased profits. I would rather pay more for commodities and do so where there is a choice. So many products are only made in China such as the wash machine hoses and the grille spatula I had to buy. When I have a choice, I will pay more for a US/Canadian made product.
Some people may not care, but the majority sentiment expressed so far indicates that it will eliminate Classe from consideration against competing brands made in North America and European countries.
Inna,Germany did not start WWI, the Russian Czar and French Bankers had more to do with it than the Kaiser . WWII was chapter 2 of WW I and blaming Germany and crushing them under reperations,combined with the american bubble collapse aka Great Depression brought it about. Voting analysis shows the German voted less for the principles they are cursed for than other nations do routinely in good times. True,Germany will be eternally guilty for the holacaust as will americans for slavery. There are no innocents,we are all guilty.
No, but many do buy Chineese made gear under Chineese or British ownership. China has its problems, but it not viewed as an Iran under current regime as moral equivalents. Now a Persian carpet made before 1979? Maybe.
The uninformed always bashing businesses ... How about the feds intervening with Boeing opening another plan in So. Carolina and because So. Carolina is not a right to work state, unions (Obama supporters) are fighting against the new plant. Knghifi (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
I would hope they do something to save one of our largest exporters from suicide. South Carolina is one of the top illiterate states, among others from Appalachia.
You can't have illiterate people building aircraft. They need to be able to read and write. The more educated they are, the less chances of a poor made product, that is a higher risk, and costs the company a fortune to try and make it right.
Why should a company educate people that are to lazy to finish high school, let along any further education? Some technical school background wouldn't hurt, and what is wrong with a college degree? Is college a bad word now?
General Motors decided to hire people without even a high school diploma. It backfired on them. They had to pay their employees to get rid of them! A lot of them went back to Appalachia, with their money, spent it, and are looking for other big paying jobs now. There are not anymore big paying easy handouts for them, except now, maybe Boeing?
The companies that moved there (South Carolina), are having a hard time trying to find employees. So how will Boeing find any?
Why should educated people that have good jobs, have to move there?
It sounds like you have some financial gain in Chinese products, and don't care whether the country fails, as long as your pockets get filled.
If you want to see one of our best companies fail, there is something not right here...
We need to support our companies. Otherwise, we may not have anything left.
Iran is not a threat, it is a bullshit propaganda. By the way, they have an about 5000 years old great musical tradition. So not sure about amp but I would certainly buy Iranian speakers. They would be voiced well, believe you me.
How many of you who would never consider buying Chinese made hi-end audio gear shop at Wal-Mart regularly? If you combined all the sales of Chinese made audio gear ever sold on earth since the invention of electricity, you would not match the dollar volume of Chinese products sold thru Wal-Mart in it's first ten minutes this morning.
Obviously done for the purpose of increasing the profit margin. I am guessing these economic times have reduced sales of many high end audio products. Classe will signficantly reduce manufacturing cost even though labor costs in China have been increasing at such a rate so as to squeeze margins and even driving foreign companies to look elsewhere. I guess even Thailand labor was too costly. Thailand produces most of the world's supply of computer hard drives. They must have some reliable tech manufacturers there. Will Classe also opt to replace some components with cheaper ones? Unknowns. All my components have been manufactured in the US or Europe. Testing once on the bench after assembly doesn't mean the item will last as long as before. If electronics will fail they usually do so within the first year of use. What's Classes's warranty? Should be longer now.
Boy, I would not want to be a Classe principal reading this thread. Entry level gear might hide on the origin of manufacture, maybe irrelevant or off the radar screen of typical buyers of that level equipment. But if this thread is representative of Classe's clientele, they better start calling back their laid off Canadian workers.
South Korea is doing what China has done and what we have abandoned: a protectionist market with steep tariffs and a buy locally policy. In the early 70s the major export for So. Korea was human hair for wigs. Samsung was a fishing and fertilizer company. They turned their economy around by going the protectionist route. We abandoned that model under Reagan and look at us now.
Germany builds cars here as well as back home and they pay their workers over $70/hr.(w/bennies) and build twice as many vehicles as we do. We are the cheap labor for their markets. When asked, they sheepishly say its because they are allowed to get away with it here. They have no intention of destroying their model at home but are willing to exploit labor here because our economic model is fully supportive of it. It all boils down to what was put forth earlier: morals and ethics. When a German businessman was asked why he was willing to pay so much of his income in taxes, he simply said: "I'd rather be a rich man in a rich country than a wealthy man in a poor country. Its time for some serious introspection.
Nordic, it might. It even be to increase the margins, it could just as well be to hold the price points they have as imported component parts have gotten more expensive with weakened dollars and loons. I find the price increases of the past 2-3 years quite remarkable - given the economic climate and psychology during that time - going up at a faster than tuition.
Nonoise, that seems similar to the scandanvian business and societal way of doing things, good products, high wages, educated populations, and relative equality of income - not sure they view the Chineese as competition for their high valued added economic core. I would not hesitate to buy Classe if they moved to Denmark; though Canada's audio industry is very highly regarded - it doesn't hury that their government supported the industry with shared research and resources for those wanting to break into the business.
Yes, indeed. Germany (as well as Japan) modeled themselves after us as we were the greatest economic and societal power, at the time. From WWII on to the Reagan years we witnessed the greatest middle class advancement in the history of the planet. Someone didn't like that and started to dismantle the model that made us what we are. Germany and the northern European countries took it to its logical end and look where we all are now. Imagine if we stayed the course. Everywhere would look like Newport Beach. Other countries would be stealing our sh*t.
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