Classe move to China

Beautiful.

What were we talking about anyway?
Oh well.

If I were to hold anything against Classe it would be their decision to build in China and the resultant loss of jobs in Canada, not because of perceived lower standards in construction. Some Chinese brands are very well made.

As for capitalism, it's merely an economic model and it all depends on how its implemented. One shouldn't conflate an economic model with any form of government: to do so would play into someone else's hands.

I would now look elsewhere if Classe were on the short list but this would not apply to other brands, like OPPO, who started out with this model.

I can bend.

Fundsgon is onto something here. The next big market is China and they have tariffs (like we used to have from Washington until Reagan) that would make importation obscenely expensive. For a predatory, profit driven board of directors, its a smart move. They now have feet in both countries. American companies are no different.

And yes, Rarl, this all smacks of xenophobia: it helps keep one's attention diverted from the real shenanigans that truly deserve our scrutiny.

And I'd like to point out something that always pops up in discussions like this and that is our buying of foreign products is not the reason why our jobs have gone overseas but is, instead, a result of our jobs going overseas. I'd gladly pay 5-10% more for something made in the States in order to keep jobs here. More money in my fellow citizens pocket means more purchases made, more taxes paid, more skin in the game for everyone. What drives an economy is what's in the consumer's pocket, not how big a tax cut some oligarch gets.

We're told WE are too expensive to hire is the reason for going overseas but the cost of transporting it back is almost a wash. It's the externalities (health, safety, environmental costs) that drives those that value profit above all else overseas. Not content with soaring profits (we've never had better performance than in the last decade) the lords and masters of our economy want obscene profits. So, they moved over 45,000 factories overseas and purged an average of 750,000 jobs a month from 2000 to 2008. This was all planned and executed while we argued over gays, abortion, guns and religion.

America is no longer considered a viable market when obscene profits are the order of the day. That market is China. A billion customers can't be wrong.

Danlib1:

Don't get me wrong: I'm a a big proponent of capitalism. It's when capitalism supplants democracy as a form of government that gets my hackles up. I agree with everything you say about morals and ethics and that was my point, all wrapped up in a tirade.

Right now, Adam Smith is rolling in his grave over what is being attributed to him. That 'guiding invisible hand' that is supposed to regulate markets was never said by him. To him it was evil and required government intervention on behalf of the markets and consumers by regulation. What we have now is a very dark shadow of what was capitalism, wrapped up in a flag.

Inna:

I like your take on Swift's "A Modest Proposal".

All the best,
Nonoise

Not only that, but a few employees there have committed suicide and they had to install fences on the rooftop to keep them from jumping.

Nice work, if you can get it.

I should have read the link before my last post but having now read it, I'd like to point out that we aren't far behind. Politicians on the right (Newt, Perry, the govenor of PA and others) have already called for the elimination of child labor laws here in America. Gotta bring those wages down to stay competitive for the highest return on their investments. They're legally obliged to.

South Korea is doing what China has done and what we have abandoned: a protectionist market with steep tariffs and a buy locally policy. In the early 70s the major export for So. Korea was human hair for wigs. Samsung was a fishing and fertilizer company. They turned their economy around by going the protectionist route. We abandoned that model under Reagan and look at us now.

Germany builds cars here as well as back home and they pay their workers over $70/hr.(w/bennies) and build twice as many vehicles as we do. We are the cheap labor for their markets. When asked, they sheepishly say its because they are allowed to get away with it here. They have no intention of destroying their model at home but are willing to exploit labor here because our economic model is fully supportive of it. It all boils down to what was put forth earlier: morals and ethics. When a German businessman was asked why he was willing to pay so much of his income in taxes, he simply said: "I'd rather be a rich man in a rich country than a wealthy man in a poor country.
Its time for some serious introspection.

Pubul57:

Yes, indeed. Germany (as well as Japan) modeled themselves after us as we were the greatest economic and societal power, at the time. From WWII on to the Reagan years we witnessed the greatest middle class advancement in the history of the planet. Someone didn't like that and started to dismantle the model that made us what we are. Germany and the northern European countries took it to its logical end and look where we all are now. Imagine if we stayed the course. Everywhere would look like Newport Beach. Other countries would be stealing our sh*t.

Inna:

Can't get the link to work but knowing you from your posts, it had to be good and/or thought provoking.

Illiteracy is a point well taken by the automotive industry. Workers here needed color coded manuals to aid in following directions as opposed to the Canadians who didn't. What won out were the guarantees made by our politicians of giant tax breaks and promises to keep the unions out.

Oh, those bad, bad unions who are nothing more than the lobbyist for the workers to help compete against the lobbyists of the corporate masters. Funny how one is lionized and the other disparaged. Those of the upper strata are heavily socialized to the point of absurdity but damn if they'll allow that kind of cooperation for the workers.

Damn commies!

Its kind of sad to be of an age where I've personally witnessed the decline and now, downward spiral, of our economy. It needn't be this way: other courses were and are readily available. Its a failure of will on the part of the electorate to fully participate (by simply paying attention and voting) and the rise of sociopaths in positions of power in industry with the means to buy off politicians. It happens to every great and small country at every stage of our existence. Take any form of government, be it a dictatorship, a monarchy, a democracy and pull away the facade and you'll find oligarchs. Oligarchs are nothing more than people who've amassed great fortunes and are willing to use some degree of coercive violence to keep it. That violence can manifest itself from retinues of personal mercenaries and standing armies to something as ubiquitous as a tax code.

There's lots of window dressing that we all fall for.

Its not a victim mentality to point out the fact that the playing field is not level when it comes to healthcare. People who need medical attention are NOT consumers. They have no choice in the matter. One reading of our Constitution, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" can easily be read as access to health care without going bankrupt. A basic human right which other countries have no problem in recognizing.

Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower, LBJ and a host of other presidents from both sides of the political spectrum advocated for some kind of single payer, universal health care. All it would do is lower costs (premiums) and increase coverage. I really don't see the downside to all of this. There are many ways to do it with or without insurance companies but the common theme in any plan would be taking the profit out of the equation. Even the most xenophobic right wingers in Western Europe blanch as the idea of loosing universal health care. They consider it a right.

Its all how you look at it and what you've been conditioned to believe.

Fiddler,

You're a generous man and your employees are lucky to have someone like you.
Right now we have insurance hacks denying coverage. Policies that appear to cover you but don't. An 'agent of the state' wouldn't go to work in drab grey overalls and a Mao cap with the express purpose of replicating and exceeding the denial rate that insurance companies do now. Coverage would expand. Doctors would still make killer salaries. You could go to any doctor you want which would make them better healers otherwise you'd go somewhere else.

As for state lines, all that would do it cause a giant sucking sound as all the insurers would go to the state with the least restrictive operating requirements. They would be able to screw someone from the other side of the country without fear of legal reprisals.

There is a middle ground that would work. The sky wouldn't fall, the earth wouldn't open up, mass hysteria wouldn't ensue. It would be so quite as to make one wonder what all the fuss was about.

Check out Wendell Potter, former corporate vice president of communications for CIGNA and what he has to say about the business he used to work for. It will give you pause.

Differences in cancer treatment and success varies from state to state due to a woman's access, or lack of, and the provincial attitudes that can guide that state. What a woman can get in California or Oregon is a far cry from what she can get in other, restrictive states.

It's great that studies are shared but there should be a minimum floor that would be nationwide on the knowledge of and what is available. There are some parts of this country where I wouldn't want to get sick in.

and

Rok2kid,

I'll do you one better and suggest that we have primary, not for profit health insurance and if you want , you can pay extra for that private room, catered meals, cosmetic surgery and the like. If one were to practice our style of healthcare in other, 'advanced' countries, you could be arrested on a felony charge.

Kijanki,

Nice point about our VA. It is the highest rated health coverage we've got and it's totally SOCIALIST in operation. Government owned, staffed and operated.

When Medicare Part D is privatized, increasing our seniors costs while limiting coverage and when it was written into the law that we cannot use our collective buying power to lower the cost of medicine like they do with the VA, shouldn't it be obvious to anyone what is going on?

We have among the worst results of all industrial nations in practically all measures and pay 2-3 time as much as other nations. Does the word "scam" come to mind? Anyone? Bueller? Just because it's a UN study doesn't cheapen it's veracity. It was a purely statistical analysis done with all the available data.

Kijamki,

Yes. collective bargaining, unions, or any kind of forum that would make it easier for the common citizen to be heard above the fray and logjam of lobbyists and unlimited money being "bestowed" on our politicians by special interests is made to look "verboten" and becomes, after a fashion, conventional wisdom.

One good thing that Medicare Part D threw in was a free membership at the gym for grandma and grandpa so all that Viagra and Cialis that pharma are pushing will be put to good use. I shudder to think of poor grandma being chased by a revitalized grandpa who is now in his second childhood.

The Chinese will deny building it.
The Canadians have proof they didn't build it.
The Americans will lawyer up and sue you for plugging it in.
Your only recourse will be to outsource your face to some other 3rd world country and hope some American company doing business there will think they can make a profit on it.

No one would hold it against you. Least of all me.
While you're there, could you pick up some chicken kabab and hummus for me?

Kijanki,

Good question but I can't figure that one out without asking for a lifeline, or would that be collective in nature?

Maybe divide and conquer has the lowest common denominator as it's desired result. An uneducated populace is much easier to control. That, or making public education look bad is necessary in order to turn it over to the superior private sector where, guess what, the results turn out about the same but the public monies end up in private hands. The Enron model can be used in many interesting ways.

Off to bed for me!

All the best,
Nonoise

Fiddler,

I, like you, have a decent health care package so no, I wouldn't go overseas or across the border to get treatment. But the 40 million + who have no insurance would, it they could.

And don't forget there are folk with duel citizenship who regularly go overseas to their home country for the same service they would get here at a fraction of the cost or for nothing at all. They don't have to mortgage their life savings, their home, their kids future for what would be considered a routine operation.They are lucky because they can "afford" something that should be next to free just by accident of birth.

That reminds me: I have grandparents from Ireland and England (even my dad was born in England) so duel citizenship is available to me (1/4 Irish, 1/4 English, 1/4 French and 1/4 Swedish) and I could have access to all that Europe has to offer. Something to consider if it gets really hairy around here.

Magfan,

The reason why healthcare didn't include selling across state lines is that the state with the least restrictive laws would be where they'd relocate to to avoid any legal recourse from the patients they'd screw out of their money. Rockerfeller set the mold way back when after he messed things up and the state prosecutors went after them through corporate laws. He offered his company to the state that would lower their values and relax legislation governing corporations the most and the rest, as they say, is history.

And to everyone else who is scratching their heads as to why American corporations are doing this is simple: they don't see themselves as American and haven't for decades. This is just a place to park their asses as they siphon off money to offshore accounts. But now that model is becoming endangered as someone here, stateside, set up some kind of mailbox clearing house in some mid west state with relaxed standards as an alternative to what one would find in the Caymans. Now you don't have to go overseas.

Lets face it, They see our view as quaint and out of date. This is beyond repair but will require diligence to slow it down. Check out this trader's view of things: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC19fEqR5bA

Game over.

They've got it both ways, coming and going. Ever since the 'Santa Clara' case, we were led to believe that corporations are people and as such, have the same rights, and since they can't speak, money is their language.

I'll believe corporations are people when one can have a sigmoidoscopy, be declared incompetent, do jail time for crimes instead of paying a fine without admission of guilt, get married, get drafted, be made to wait at the DMV, be stripped searched, take a piss test, or buy me a drink.

What unions gave to Obama for his election (oh those millions!) equaled a weeks worth of the contributions for McCain for the entire election cycle.

Please.

Unions represent about 9% of the workforce and my oh my they are a ferocious bunch, aren't they? Something to be afraid of.

As for Wall Street, from what I've remember, they just hedged their bets and gave about the same to both parties until it got to the end and they saw just how insipid the republicans were. They are not fools and they knew Obama was given a turd wrapped in a ribbon. It wasn't supposed to manifest itself until after the election but everything blew up in our faces well before he took office. He's not perfect and he wasn't my first choice (I'm not a democrat) but I'd be damned if I were to vote for the same people who got us in the mess to begin with.

As for OWS, they were protesting WS along with Obama, or didn't you notice?
Take off the blinders.

And as for those stockholders all over the country, they amount to a fraction of the population. Maybe rose colored glasses magnify, I didn't know that. Its not people like you and me. Most sit on boards of many different companies and yes, they act collectively as they have the same agenda: to make as profit as possible. About 1/2 of 1% personally give more than $200 in an election cycle. That's not that many stockholders now is it? And its the super wealthy (oligarchs) that sit on those boards.

I really didn't want to go that route.
I so enjoyed the fun so far.

Fiddler,

Your hatred of Obama is palpable. You can almost feel it. And your personal attacks are juvenile, at best. I guess I struck a nerve.

Can't wait for the flame war, eh? Think you're pretty clever? Let's go point by point, shall we? Pay attention now.

The unions gave about $300 million. That's all. Obama personally garnered over $745 million from other sources, like WS and Pharma and Big Medicine which promised 2 election cycles worth of donations in return for no single payer. On another note, why would any union give to republicans?

As for WS, they gave over $88 million to dems and over $67 million to reps. with about $42 million going to anyone on a banking committee. Real out of balance, wouldn't you say?

The 1/2 of 1% able to afford to give more than $200 in an election cycle is valid. Prove me wrong. And you'd have to be pretty dense to think that anyone with that kind of money wouldn't donate to keep that money. But I beg the point, don't I? And yes, those people, above all others, are definitely shareholders. Not all are big, granted. But that was never my point. It's painfully obvious that small shareholders would benefit and good for them.

The rest is basically drivel so what's the point of addressing it?
It's one thing to have a belief system. It's necessary to get on in life with.
But you come across as a bit unhinged.

Fiddler, (with apologies to Mapman, who's right, but I just have to retort)

It's amazing just how much you read into what I've said (a classic form of deflection) and sorry, but all of what you attribute to me is way off the mark. Sounds like this has been building up for a long, long time. Silly me for playing with the cork. But when that cork is stuck in my face, play with it I will.

What about the figures I gave you? Wasn't that what we were talking about?