Class D is just Dandy!
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My ARC DS450, is a very capable and musical amplifier. I know Arc uses some proprietary parts in it, and has an analogue power supply I believe, or something to that effect, which doesn't make it like many of the other class D amps discussed. All I can say is, that is a shame that many bad mouth this topology. I will say that it did need a massive break in period. At first, I will admit, it was murky with little air and honestly didn't compare to my hd220, but now I don't miss it at all. Would I like ref 150? Yep, but I think a ref pre to upgrade my LS-17 would be a better upgrade. The DS 450 is an effortless poweramp, that had more than enough resolution, warmth and musicality to get your foot tapping of hairs standing, depending on what you want at that moment. |
Thanks Erik. I think you and others on this thread may find 'this post on ICE modules interesting although it may already may be common knowledge for all of you. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/287308-icepower-differences-asp-asc-asx2.html |
I think Im descending further into the rabbit hole with this but any thoughts on how the ICE Ncore and Hypex UCD modules stack up against each other? Or has anyone noticed any differences? I know there are many other pieces that produce the final sound but will the different modules have an affect? i was told by an audio manufacturer that they were told by a supplier that Hypex was superior to ICE. What are everyone's thoughts? |
Our Kangaroo some say in plague proportions in Australia is very efficient, a bit like the Class-D, of the distance v speed travelled in the animal world. But is very one dimensional in it's movement and that straight ahead, easily picked off by a Mick Taylor (Wolf Creek) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTUp4IJ_xqQ Cheers George |
Atmasphere 5-11-2017Thanks, Ralph. I’ll check it out. Having run one marathon and a lot of middle distance races in my younger days it definitely sounds of interest. My understanding is that at middle distances the fastest land animal is the pronghorn antelope, which is found in western North America. According to Wikipedia it can do 35 mph for 4 miles. Of course there are many humans who can go vastly further than that. And of course +2 re the importance of putting amps and speakers into context with each other, and being cautious before making blanket statements. Best regards, -- Al |
For that matter, Bolt can also "compete" against a cheetah.FWIW dept.: @almarg , you might be interested in a book called 'Born To Run' by Christopher McDougall. In it, we find out that we are the dominant species not just because of our brains but also because of our ability to run further than any other animal. Not as fast for sure- its well-known that a cheetah is only good for short bursts. Its a fascinating read. I've yet to see a class D amp keep up with a good tube amp, but that is on my Classic Audio Loudspeakers, which are not well suited to solid state in general . As a result, I'm sure there are those that would say they are 'difficult to drive' despite being 16 ohms and 98 db 1w/1M :) On a different speaker I would expect the situation to be reversed. Just saying- its important to include the speaker when talking about what is 'competitive'; blanket statements can get tricky in high end audio. |
For that matter, Bolt can also "compete" against a cheetah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZuRTNidtCM :-) But I think we all know what the others mean by "compete," whether we agree with them or not. Best regards, -- Al |
This "competes" is not saying anything, as I can "compete" against
Usain Bolt in a 100mt race, I don't think there'd be any money put down on me to win anywhere in the world! This competes http://www.classdaudio.com/sds-series-amplifiers/sds-470c-class-d-audio-power-amplifier/ With this!!!!! http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/#M-60 Give me a break. Cheers George |
randy-11: "Can anybody list very affordable great sounding Class D amps - say below $2,000 for a stereo pair, and better or comparable SQ to a Sunfire amp?" I'm not sure if you're looking for a stereo amp or a pair of mono-blocks. But for stereo amps, I'd suggest: ClassDAudio SDS-470C for $700. I own the model just under this, the SDS-440-CS for $630, and it's a very good performer so I would think the 470-C sounds similarly good with a bit more power than the 440-CS. Not exactly audio jewelry but bargains sound wise. D-Sonic M3A-1200S, 2 x 600w for $1,875. Stereo version of the M3-600 mono-blocks that are very good. D-Sonic M3A-800S, 2 x 400w for $1,475. Red Dragon S500 2 x 250w currently on sale for $1,899 (reg price $1,9999 black in stock but silver temporarily sold out). Very well reviewed and uses dual Pascal class D power modules usually used in very hi-end amps. For mono-blocks: D-Sonic M3-600-M 1 x600w for $2,150/pair. I've owned these for about 2yrs and use them to drive my Magnepans with 1,200w @ 4 ohms. By far the best amps I've ever used on them. D-Sonic M3-1500-M 1 x1,500w for $2,750/pair. I haven't heard these in my system but, based on the rave 6Moons review I read on these, they may give you the best performance short of spending $10k+ on the excellent Merrill Audio Veritas monos. Use the highly regarded Pascal power modules. Red Dragon M500 1 x250w currently on sale for $750 each (reg price $800 each black in stock but silver temporarily sold out.) Very well reviewed and uses Pascal class D power module usually used in very hi-end amps. There are others I haven't heard such as the Nord monos from the U.K. and the James Romeyn Hypex NC-400 mono kit amp builds in Utah Hope this helped, Tim |
Randy-11... Yes... the SDS-470C by "ClassDAudio" is superb in all respects, and competes with the Parasound JC-1's, A-21, etc. for about $700. I've got them all... as well as... the Atma-Sphere M60's... and... it competes well with all of these. http://classdaudio.com/ |
Check out the Auralic Merak mono block Class A/D amplifiers that put out 400 watts per channel into 4 ohms. Google the reviews. These sell for $5000 for the pair new. These are the best sounding Class D amps I have heard, and can be had for under $3000.00 used. Often for less than that. I'm reluctantly selling my Meraks so I can raise cash to get new speakers. |
Hi @Pinthrift, Welcome. So the M2 is NAD’s integrated with DAC. http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/nad_m2_direct_digital_integrated_amplifier/#o0ZxxctxrKyjSa... Listen, I’m curious how did you find the DAC? Did you feel it needed a lot of break in? NAD is claiming a lot of exclusives, but I have to say, the output vs. impedance curves look just like a B&O ICEpower design. Possibley using ICEedge? Best, E |
First time Forum responder...aged audio dude...amps along the path include modded Electrocompaniet Ampliwire II (1980's start of good sand amps) ...modded Moscode 300...Muse 160 and now the direct digital NAD M2 integrated ($6K) with full Marigo dot treatment and fuse upgrade. Small room with Salk Veracity HT1's (sealed for added detail) & a pair of Paradigm Ultracube 10 v.2 sub woofers, also Marigo dotted. I was raised in a household of live music, nearby cousins becoming professional musicians. My musical "truth" is instruments and vocals sounding as they do in real life, without amplification. In a hi fi, it begins with good electricity..good grounding and dedicated lines with good outlets. I've been exposed to uber systems, including Volti Audio, better new Marigos, large Kings, Emerald Physics, Tannoys... plus. The NAD M2 simply BRINGS IT! with refinement, depth, stage, air and full slam of the expensive stuff. Without the Marigo dot treatments, things were a little bit "hi-fi" sounding, a bit dry accompanied by that detachment that can happen with digital sources. My audio niche is finding great stuff on a reasonable budget, and making it come more alive with ancillary upgrades. I have several audio buddies who have gone from excellent tube and SS amps to versions of the NCore amps without looking back. The time is here. Pinthrift |
@fencingfan, I bet the NuPrime/Amphion combo is excellent. I'm a month in with my IDA16 and I love it. I'm using it with Bowers and Wlikins 683 S2s. With the sound I'm getting I have to believe the DAC in it is outstanding as well. Yeah, the feel of the buttons on the remote and the front panel are lacking a bit but they work very well. The volume control on the IDA-16 is fantastic, it tracks beautifully. I agree with you. There is nothing fatiguing about it . It is refined and powerful. Cheers, Scott |
I saw a Nobsound TPA3116 mini power amplifier for $40, so I figured, "Just how bad could that be?" and along with a 24-volt PS for another $10, I was surprised how GOOD the little box sounded, when hooked to my Large Advent Loudspeakers (circa 1975, new foam rings in 1990). I tested the set-up with a broad range of musical types-- Jazz Classical, Rock, Live Rock, and I was impressed for a $50 Class-D chip amplifier. Then I plugged the harman/kardon 330i back into the system, and there was no fair comparison. My conclusion was the Nobsound (which I might add can be bought from another vendor for as little as $25) would be just fine for the garage, or a workshop, with a pair of small speakers. At that price point it was acceptable, listen-able, and surprisingly small. At 90% efficiency, the power draw for the wall-wort would be negligible. No sense in trying to compare it to some high-end exploitations of the Texas Instrument chip, but in the right circumstance it wasn't THAT Bad. Unfortunately, folks like to make blanket statements like "Class-D is inferior"... but that is the same as saying "I like Limes but not cherries"... I see that Professionals have embraced Class-D in PA systems, and some high-end applications are very good. If this technology is like other aspects of progress, in 5-years we will marvel at what amplifiers might look and sound like. Anyway, as the "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" -- I gave the Nobsound a fair trial, and deemed it to be just fine, if we are NOT talking about Audiophile listening. I admit, being unable to best a 1980s era radio receiver is a very tall standard to eclipse, but I didn't want to send it back for a refund, so I will find it a home...maybe hot-wired to my 24-volt power wheelchair, a pair of cheap speakers, and an MP3 player. I can sound as 'Bad' as the folks with external speakers on the cars with huge rims... |
@samac I recently acquired a Nuprime IDA16 and I am very impressed with it. I am using it with Amphion Argon 1 speakers in my office. It is still improving, but I agree, it is a remarkable amp, and a remarkable bargain. I'm not thrilled with the remote, or the front panel buttons, but in terms of sound quality. it is very, very strong. And on topic, it is nowhere near metallic, or fatiguing. In fact, it is already a much more .... easy, amp than the Hegel amps I've listened to. I don't understand any of the technical stuff, but my class D amps, the Nuprime and my Devialet 220 Pro, are outstanding. Dandy? Yes. |
Ralph, it appears to me that what underlies much of the disagreement between you and Erik is that he is viewing the impedance of an output coupling capacitor, if present, as contributing to and being part of the component’s output impedance. While you are not, possibly because you are considering "output impedance" as corresponding to "specified output impedance," which as we all agree is often based on a mid-range frequency such as 1 kHz. The capacitor’s impedance of course being unlikely to be a major contributor to the 1 kHz output impedance in just about any reasonable design. Thanks Al! To be clear here, this was Off topic (we're working on our own class D circuit that is not based on any modules so you can draw your own conclusion about what my attitude about class D is); my main concern was was to try to express the idea that it was the output coupling cap in a given design that was determining the frequency response variation seen in some designs. Since there are tube preamps with a high output impedance that also do not have the rising impedance as seen (due to the fact that they have larger coupling caps), its hard to allow a generalization like 'high output impedance leads to frequency response errors' or the like. It doesn't have to was my point and I didn't have to look very far to find examples. Put another way, its the rising impedance at low frequency, not the **overall** higher output impedance that causes the problem; I should have expressed it that way earlier! |
ricred1735 posts05-05-2017 5:43amI’m trying to get a hold of a pair of Bel Canto Ref 600s to compare to my Jeff Rowland 625 S2. May be time for a change. I’m curious to hear if they mate well with the Corus preamp.There a s/h pair for sale here, word is he’s going back to linear amplification. http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/122535-eoifs-bel-canto-premono-blocks/ Cheers George |
I had been planning a change in my system for quite a while that just started coming together. I went from a system that paired a Cambridge 851N DAC and ARC DSi200 integrated amp to a system that pairs a PS Audio Directstream Junior with Bel Canto Ref600m amps. I've had the new DAC for a couple weeks and the amps just arrived yesterday. Still breaking them in, but so far so good. The jump in DAC SQ was major, as one would expect with a more than doubling of price. The first thing I noticed about the Bel Canto amps was greater bass authority. Besides that, I've got a lot of variables going on. We'll see. For now, I'm having a grand time. As an aside, I work in the energy efficiency consulting industry and I like being able to leave my equipment on all the time without feeling like I'm wasting lots of energy. |
@randy-11 I think Class D is as good as many Class A or AB designs. It may sound different, as some amps will sound different to each other regardless of the technology. Some may also deal with different speakers differently, just like Class A/AB designs. I think there are some very affordable great sounding Class D amps right now. Please skim this thread for a number of good suggestions, and listen for yourself. My Class D monoblocks sound as good as mega-buck class A amps to me. Let’s say my hearing is impaired (for argument’s sake). Why would I buy anything more expensive I don’t hear an improvement for? :) Best, E |
Given that this is Erik’s thread, I presume Guido and the others posting above won’t deem it inappropriate if I comment on the disagreement between Erik and Ralph. Apologies if that is an incorrect presumption. Ralph, it appears to me that what underlies much of the disagreement between you and Erik is that he is viewing the impedance of an output coupling capacitor, if present, as contributing to and being part of the component’s output impedance. While you are not, possibly because you are considering "output impedance" as corresponding to "specified output impedance," which as we all agree is often based on a mid-range frequency such as 1 kHz. The capacitor’s impedance of course being unlikely to be a major contributor to the 1 kHz output impedance in just about any reasonable design. Regarding that terminological difference, I would have to agree with Erik, and consider "output impedance" to be whatever impedance is seen "looking back" into the output of a component, at a frequency that should be and hopefully is stated. Also, as he pointed out, measurements of **many** popular high quality components that have been presented over the years by John Atkinson in Stereophile, that have specified output impedances of perhaps a few hundred ohms, show impedance rises to the vicinity of 3 or 4K or even more at 20 Hz. Obviously the sonics of such a design would be compromised to some degree when driving a low impedance, such as 10K, or even 30K or more in some cases. On the other hand, regarding this part of Erik’s statement that you quoted above: I say high output impedance causes frequency response changes which vary based on the load. This is an irrefutable fact based on simple serial circuit analysis.As I assume he would agree, high output impedance will not affect frequency response when driving a resistive load if the output impedance itself is resistive, and does not vary significantly at relevant frequencies. As I said in an earlier post, it is the **variation** in output impedance, as a function of frequency, that may be significant in that regard. Although of course under extreme circumstances high output impedance can in itself affect frequency response in the treble region, even if there is no variation as a function of frequency, due to its interaction with cable capacitance. Capacitance not being a resistive load, of course, by definition. Hopefully this post will result in the divergent opinions expressed in the foregoing posts becoming less divergent. Best regards, -- Al |
