Hello All, I was long hoping to evaluate the Rowland Daemon 1500W
Superintegrated amp. Could a class D integrated fulfill my yearning for sonic nirvana, or would Daemon leave me pining for the wonderful music of my separates: Rowland Aeris DAC fed by the ultra-capacitor-based PSU external power supply, driving my beloved M925 monoblocks? Eventually, a Daemon review unit was delivered on February 28th. I Started
break-in the following day, and have been scribbling my listening notes since…
The writing project will continue for at least a few months, until the
device has stabilized, and I have exercised several of its many input and
output features. I have been waiting for a long time for this 99Lbs single box
critter. It is Jeff Rowland’s integrated statement. The DAC + Preamp + 1500W/8
(2500W/4) dual-mono power amp in a single chassis measuring 17.5” x 15.25” x
9.5” is sounding amazing after just a little more than a couple hundred hours of break-in.
Discovering the phenomenal musical beauty that Daemon produces is being a fascinating experience… Already I am stunned by Daemon's power reserve and unreal tonal grace. Join
me to chat about my adventure with this integrated flagship around its new Audiogon watering-hole:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/jeff-rowland-daemon-reviewing-the-jrdg-superintegrated-flagsh...
And, feel free to PM me with any questions about it.
Saluti, Guido
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Thank you Eric, nice to see an Audiogon watering hole for fans of good class D amplification. Over the years, I have had a variety of very fine amps.... Among class D designs I enjoyed for several years the Rowland 312 stereo based on ICEpower ASP1000, and the Bel Canto REF1000 MK.2 -- also based on ASP1000. I agree with Ghosthouse that Merrill makes wonderful amps based on NCore NC1200 and NC500... Worth not only listening, but also owning. Read my super-favorable review of Merrill's Veritas monos at on Positive Feedback No.68:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm
My reference amplifier is the Rowland M925 mono, also based on NCore NC1200 modules, amongst its many component parts... It is an absolutely enchanting amp, which I have discussed elsewhere on this forum:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/experiencing-rowland-m925-4-chassis-reference-amps
Yep, 4 years have elapsed since M925 has arrived at my doorsteps, and I am still in love with it.
Here is where you can find information on M925 design and architecture:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=212
Saluti, Guido
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@toddverron
There are not too many speakers with large side-firing woofers... Might you be using VIenna Acoustics Mahler speakers? I hav owned those, and they are amazing with class D amps.
Guido |
@noble100 @neil_squiresNiel @neil_squires@neil_squiresand Tim, harmonic distortions lower than 0.005% have already been achieved in class D for a few years. One example is the Mola Mola Kaluga designed by Bruno Putseys using an enhanced NC1200 Ncore modules. THe amp is rated at less than 0.003% across the audible frequency band. The big Rowlands M825 and M925 amps also exceed the 0.005% target, but their price tag makes them somewhat more exotic.
The interesting thing in Gallium Nitride transistors is not so much whether they can in principle enable a high priced class D amp like the panasonic to achieve distortions lower than 0.005%, but if the technology could bring such performance in designs that serve the sub_$10K market, and perhaps one fine day, even below the $5K market.
On the other hand, the audible performance of an amplifier is not created by one particular measurement, nor by a slew of measurements, but by the effect -- iuntellectual and emotional alike -- that the device is capable of having on a listener... Plenty of amps of any class can mesmerize a listener, with a somewhat weaker link to their total declared distortion.
G.
9 @neil_squires@neil_squires |
The NC1200/700 is an excellent foundation on which to design a seriously good NCore NC500 or NC1200 based amp. The fabulous Merrill Veritas mono is proof positive.
However, NC1200/700 was designed by Putseys as a solid starting point, not as the ultimate power supply for NCore modules.
Putseys himself enhanced NC1200/700 for his own Mola Mola Kaluga amp, and Rowland uses custom multi-regulated SMPS in M825 and M925. Theta decided to implement their own toroidal supply for Prometheus.... I have not heard Prometheus, but knowing Theta, it is probably an extremely good NC1200-based amp as well.
Guido
Some manufacturers have achieved even |
@noble100 Tim, I love your quote from the upcoming issue of Acta Philosophica Refutata (Vol XXVIII, Feb 29th, 2017.... I have not yet received this issue *Grins!*
Jokes aside, it is my understanding that this conjecture -- it is not a theory in the scientific sense of the word -- asserts that switching frequencies of at least 1Mhz are expected to reduce harmonic distortion to 0.005% or better.
It happens that 0.003% has already been achieved for the entire audible frequency band: Mola Mola Kaluga which uses enhanced versions of NCore NC1200 and its matching power supply. ROwland M925 and M825 are also below 0.005% while using stock NC1200 modules.
But let us come down to Earth from the audiophrenic stratosphere above.... The reasonably priced $2500 Merrill Teranis, based on the lower cost NC500 NCore module, declares a THD of 0.005%, thus achieving the preported distortion goal, using a trickled-down version of NCore, with is mainstream switching frequency of about 450 Khz.
G.
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Hi Erik, the inability of class D amps to handle difficult loads is one more urban legend.... Most non-trickle down modules that I know have damping factors of 1000 or better, and deliver 30A or better..... NCore NC1200 for one thing drive my difficult to handle Vienna DIe Muzik, with their wild impedance curve, without batting an eye... Even the little Merril Teranis could do it without a sweat, once we raised its gain to 029dB.
In olden days, I heard a ROwland M312 (ICEpower 1000ASP) totally trashing the authority and harmonic resolution of a big Boulder 2000 series monoblock pair driving Die Muzik... Not only my opinion either... there were about 15 people in the room.
Guido |
Hi Erik, the big old ICEpower 1000ASP also had an output
impedance of 1000… Perhaps that is one of the reasons why it outperformed the
authority of the Boulder 2000 series in authority on Die Muzik…. Not sure of the
damping factor of less powerful modules though.
The audible difference between an old ICEpower 1000ASP and
an NCore NC1200 is that simple amps based on the old ASP1000 with little design
around them did not sound terribly good, no matter how much they were broken in….
ASP 1000 gave the high current, the raw resolution, the compatibility with
difficult speakers, but could sound quite harsh unless the designer created a
solid input stage to raise input impedance and attenuate common noise….. The
native power supply was somewhat weak in regulation…. The better amps used
regulated custom SMPS, and at least in the case of M312 and M301 also an
integrated power factor corrected rectifier to avoid any grundge contaminating
the signal….. So much so that rowland created an external rectifier called PC-1
which could be used with some of his lower end ICEpower amps like M501, M201,
and M102.
Here then comes NCore NC1200 with its companion NC1200/700 unregulated
supply…. Turns out that a simple implementation of this module inan amp, even
without the amp designer doing too much in custom active circuits, usually
outperforms any sophisticated class D amps created round the older ICEpower
1000ASP modules. Then, if the designer does apply his more sophisticated input
stages, power regulation, power supplies, and rectification to NCore…. Things
sore.
Having said the above, I have not
tried the latest generation of ICEpower 1000ASP, but I have heard that they are
much more musical than the older ones.
Guido
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I am with you Erik, I have not experienced yet an amp based on ICEpower technology as mesmerizing as NCore NC1200.... THis includes my old beloved Rowland M312 based on ICEpower 1000ASP. See my review of Merrill Veritas on PFO:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm On the other hand, not wanting to mortgage the future.... I have hardly heard heard all ICepower amps on the market, nor I can venture what ICEpower might do in the future.
For one thing, I have heard very good things about the little Rowland M125.... I It is based on a current generation ICEpower, and delivers 125W per channel in stereo mode, and 500W bridged.... Apparently super sweet... But I have not heard it yet.
Best, G.
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Hi Erik, have you considered asking my friend Merrill if he would let you audition a well-broken-in pair of NCore NC1200-based Veritas monos at your home? Here is Merrill's contact info:
Merrill Audio Advanced Technology Labs, LLC
80 Morristown Road, #275
Bernardsville, NJ 07924
415.562.4434
info@merrillaudio.net
http://merrillaudio.net
Saluti, Guido |
@H2Oaudio nailed the crux of the matter on the proverbial head. Like amps of other topologies, some class D amps do sound extraordinary... The Rowland Daemon integrated that I am reviewing is definitely one of these. It is already trending to sound extraordinary, after just a little more than 300 hours of break-in.
G.
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I auditioned Flying Mole at RMAF several years ago. To say that they sounded utterly uninspiring to me would be a magnanimous instance of audiophilic kindness.
Thankfully, even back then there already were phenomenal music makers running in class D... One obvious example was the Bel Canto REF1000 Mk2, which I listened with immense pleasure at the rame show.
G.
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madavid0, the only time that I do not hear mesmerizing music with resolution, staging, imaging, macro and micro dynamics, authority, and amazing listenability with zero fatigue is when my class D Rowland M925 mono amps and the rest of my system are... Turned off.
On the other hand, I believe you have heard these very same type of comments from me and many other music lover on this and other similar audio watering holes before.... And they ain't changing.
This does not imply that my amps, being class D are inherently superior to yoursma.... Just that I love the kind of emotional music that my amps express to me, for my musical taste, with my other components, in my own home, potentially 24/7/52.
Can my musical experience be enhanced further... Sure thing. Next Thursday I will be taking delivery of a Rowland PSU (Power Storage Unit)... An external power supply based on supercapacitor technology that I will apply to my Rowland Aeris DAC. I am excited about third party reports about it this far, and am anxious to try it on my own system.... But, my class D M925 mono amps are not going anywhere *Grins!*
G. |
@madavid0
From a historical point of view, your statement has value. In olden days, let us say about 10 years ago, ICEpower modules taken by temselves produced the kind of sound, which were not particularly musical. There were in those days several examples of ultra-basic implementation of ICE that did not sound particularly attractive. THe same modules, however, used by amp designers with a modicum of amp design knowledged yielded extremely musical amplifiers.... I already mentioned the Bel Canto REF1000 Mk.2 and the Rowland M312 as examples. It is my understanding that more recent versions of ICEpower modules do not share the problems of the olde ones.
I did not know about ICEEDGE.... I'll try to find out about it.
Your statement about ICEpower benefitting from linear power supplies is, a little tunnel-visioned... In the following sense. ICEpower modules, as much as class D modules from other makers, often integrated their own power supplies, or have companion ready-to-go SMPS for those amp implementors who want to create simpler amps at a lower cost.
Most of these modules however, can be powered by power supplies of other origins, they be linear, toroidal, SMPS, or perhaps other types. Invariably, some of these supplies are very good, and some might not be. A good designer with knowledge of power supply design is able to enhance his class D amplifier with a custom supply..... I believe that Henry Ho has long term experience using linear supplies, with all reports pointing to great results... Rowland has been using custom SMPS for the last 15 years at least with equally great results. In the end, the type of power supply does not matter, provided it is sinergistic with the module, and truly enhances the musical experience.
Regards, G.
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NCore NC400 is a very simple to use module designed by Putseys for Do It Yourself implementations.
As far as I know, the Theta Prometheus module is a full NCore NC1200 module, not a low end NC400. Hypex NC1200 cannot be purchased by individual audio enthusiasts for DIY projects. It can be sourced only by qualified high end audio manufacturers, such as Theta, Merrill Audio, Bel Canto, Rowland, and other similar companies.
G.
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@madavid0, how many hours of break-in did you give the D-sonic amp?
G.
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@samac, yes all class D amps that have been in my system took over 1K hours to break-in and stabilize. But this has also been my experience with class A/B amps, with CD players, with two tube-based line stages, and with the Rowland Aeris DAC..
On the other hand, I have not tried in my system every amp on the market today, so I will not categorically state that all amps require over 1000 hours to break in... Guido
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Atma and all, let us please return this thread to its original topic. There are better places to discuss preamplifier design than this rare thread for class D amp enthusiasts.
G. |
Atma, I understand now the reason behind the technical discussion on line stages... Very exciting that you are working on an amp project based on class D. Please do keep all of us posted!!!
Saluti, Guido
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All, doubtless George enjoys throwing red herrings that are well past their prime... And the whole argument of... If a luminary like ML could not do class D right, it must mean that class D is not ready for prime time is, well.... A logical fallacy called a flawed induction step.
On the other hand, this being an open forum hosted in an open Country, asking friend George to decamp and settle on a more traditionalist audio watering whole is not a very nice thing to do to an old friend.
His amused needling of us is actually refreshing... Makes us remember that things are ever evolving, and that what we deem fabulous today, will before long be deemed obsolete. And who knows.. May be those superfast transistors he is always talking about will before long let class D amps achieve this vaunted realm of 0.003% distortion.
Oh... I must be daft. NCore NC1200 based amps are already capable of 0.003% distortion plus or minus some smidjin.... using standard 500Khz switching frequencies... Oh well, Need to find something else that class D can'd do.... We sure wouldn't want to use our ears and discover amazing music on class D to our chagrin, wouldn't we?!
G. |
@sfseay Not sure about how sighted tests of power cables would even work.... May be some rare sighted people are able to hear through their eyes instead of their ears?!
Oddly enough, I experience no difficulty discerning differences amongst power cords, exotics and inexpensive ones alike. On the other hand, what would I know.... I have been as blind as a bat in a sealed barrell of tar for the last 33 years. All my audio tests have been totally blind ones since 1984.
I must be really unfortunate, being bount to listen to music only through my ears *Grins!*
G. |
Hi George, it is quite possible that an increase of switching frequencies by by a factor of 2, 5 or possibly 10 might very well enhance the sound of well designed class D amps.... Or at least, such higher frequencies might be a contributing factor.
I have not heard the new Panasonic that use these new transistors, so I do not know how they would compare to the current crop of the better class D amps.... But sure am curious.
And when reproduced music becomes even more enchanting than what I experience now from my Rowland M925 monos, I'll be the first one to celebrate the event.
Have you heard these new Panasonic amps yet? If you have, please let us know your first hand impressions.
Saluti, G.
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Hi will62, I have experienced some RF leaks out of older class D amps based on ICEpower 1000ASP modules. I am talking about amps in production until 2010 or so. Typically, an FM tuner picked up hash unless it was some two feet away from the amp.
By contrast, well designed amps based on Hypex NCore technology like Merrill Veritas or my own Rowland M925 do not leak at all... Not that you would want to do it, but if you had no better logical placement, you can sit an FM tuner on top on an NCORE amp with zero side-effects... Yes, I speak by experience.
Please note that I have no idea about RF leaks from the current generation of ICEpower amplifiers. G.
Guido
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I am with you Kuribo!
Isn't it funny how when some tube amp, or SS class A or A/B amp, falls flat on its unmusical face, everyone shrugs it off as a isolated flop in an otherwise most vaunted class of operation....
Yet, when such a flop is on a class D amp, that is taken as proof positive that class D is immature, or even inherently inferior.
Saluti, G.
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You are right @stfoth, some 10 years ago, most class D amplifiers that I listen to sounded either hi-fiish -- like a Technics stereo of the early 1980s, or darkling, or hazy, or even outright screetchy... Yet, even some 10 years ago, some class D amps were already making real music... I fell totally in love and adopted one of the few class D amps which made real music without compromises: The Rowland M312 stereo.
Today the class D field is very different. While you might still find the occasional screetch owl out there, most class D amps seem to be making real music, and more than a few are exceptional music makers. In general, you cannot go wrong with amps based on NCore NC1200 or Pascal M-Pro2 modules.
George, Bel Canto M600 is a relatively entry level monoblock amp. Using the scaled down NC500 NCore module, They were conceived to fulfill price point of a price sensitive segment of the market. At $5K/pair, They are not an attempt to scale the summit of absolute performance levels of amps based on the full NC1200 modules or Pascal M-Pro2 and X-Pro2 modules.
Hi Lalitk, the Rowland M725 monos are based on a class A/B topology. You might have meant the M825 stereo instead, which like M925, sports NC1200 modules.
Regards, G. |
Hello listening99, what power rating would be ideal for your speakers? ... And what is your budget for an amp?
Regards, Guido
listening99
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