@ddafoe The AHB2 and #16 is also a comparison I have made before. The top end of the AHB2 is rather silky but that neutrality throws people off. The amp that I think is a worthy successor to the AHB2 is the SimAudio Noth Collection 761.
Class D is just Dandy!
I thought it was time we had a pro- Class D thread. There's plenty of threads about comparisons, or detractors of Class D.
That's fine, you don't have to like Class D amps, and if you don't please go participate on one of those threads.
For those of us who are very happy and excited about having musical, capable amps that we can afford to keep on 24/7 and don't require large spaces to put them in, this thread is for you.
Please share your experiences with class D amps!
That's fine, you don't have to like Class D amps, and if you don't please go participate on one of those threads.
For those of us who are very happy and excited about having musical, capable amps that we can afford to keep on 24/7 and don't require large spaces to put them in, this thread is for you.
Please share your experiences with class D amps!
876 responses Add your response
@yyzsantabarbara, I just purchased a Coda S5.5 which is 50w Class A and find it so clean and revealing compared to my two previous amps (Pass XA30.8 and AtmaSphere Class D) that my Weiss DAC might not be the greatest fit and a slightly warmer DAC might be better. I actually find the Coda closer to the Benchmark AHB2's presentation in terms of 'hearing into' the recording, but does keep some of the Class A imaging and 3d depth with a little texture that I expected from the Pass Class A sound I'm used to. As to Eric's point, I don't find the Coda warm either, at least when compared to the Pass and Class D AtmaSphere. I also owned a PS Audio amp based on ICEpower back many years ago and that sound did make me think of my PrimaLuna integrated, warm and cozy sounding, but with lots of dynamic slam.
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@gmichaellittle that is interesting and a great win for you since you saved money in that exchange. I was about to buy a used M1200 last month but went with the even cheaper Schitt Wotan. I found that the #16 needs a DAC or other sources that play nice with Class A. A rolled of DAC is a no go for me with the #16. I have not done head-to-head with the Wotan and the #16 on my cone speaker but have on my Magnepan Mini. The $2k Wotan sounds a lot like the #16, It is a bit warmer than the #16 and it also has tremendous bass response like the #16. I even removed my KEF KC62 sub from my Mini system when using the Wotan since the bass was too much. I cannot think of any audiophile attribute that the Wotan does not come close or match the #16. The Wotan seems a bit more aggressive than the #16. If any of you have heard the well-received Schott Aegir v1 amp, the Wotan sounds like a cleaner version of that amp on top, a very energetic sound (not laid back), and huge bass. I like this amp. |
@yyzsantabarbara I had the Coda 16 and it was just not a good match with my Spatial X5s. So its hard to compare the sound. In my system the Coda 16 never sounded as good as the professional reviews or the testimonials by posters here on Audiogon. In my system, the PSAudio M1200 monoblocks sound better and give me superlative sound. The Spatial qualities of these amps is superb. Their clarity is stunning and given that they are hybrids there is nothing sterile about them. |
Thanks for sharing your experience. The A21 is a killer amp and punches above it's price point. I believe I will have to put in significantly more money to upgrade this to another Class AB or D.
That is the most important (No.1) goal of this hobby and good to know that you are having a great time with it. |
A21 driving Focal Profile floor standers
I can’t answer that because I don’t believe in the class itself making a sound. If you ask how did it change between my A21 and ICEPower 250ASP I can honestly say they sounded identical in good and bad ways. Very laid back and maybe even too laid back with no euphonic colorations
I didn’t. I went to a Luxman because it sounded better. In particular, compared to both the Parasound and ICEpower it had more extension in the bass and treble and an almost tube quality to the midrange and treble. The Luxman just happens to be A/B. I suspect much of the sound quality of the Luxman however is in the preamp design so I hope to switch to a Luxman preamp (perhaps tubed) when I go active.
Making speakers is how I enjoy my hobby and the next step in my system’s evolution is to convert my 2-way speakers with passive crossovers to 3-way actives.
I can’t speak about that particular jump. I’m using a Hypex plate amp for my center and I like it a great deal, but the NAD hybrid amps are significantly different in design so hard to compare. |
@phusis I already talked to MC2. They are very helpful and responsive. They told me I can do the replacement but I cannot get fans out myself. Looks easy but need an angled/suitable tools which I don’t have. About Noctua, they said it maybe risky to use if you don’t know what you are doing. Because the Noctua has metal parts on the fan and if it touches the heatsink, it will short out and damage the amplifier. I maybe after a T1000 which has an option to set the back fan to kick in when it reaches to 90 Celsius, the front fan is still on at all times. The T1500 has fans are always on design. Did you really hear a big difference when you changed it to more quiet fans or is it still there? I am only using it in my second system for now which is connected to NHT 1.5. |
@celo wrote:
Great that you like its sound! What speakers are you running them with?
I replaced the built-in fans with low noise Arctic dittos. Noctua fans is another option, and while some of them they don’t shift as much air as the Arctic’s (a potential problem with high wattage usage) their noise floor is a bit lower even. Consult MC² Audio for advice with regard to fan replacement. I had mine delivered by the company to a pro dealer I know well and who’s importing the amps, and this way the fans were fitted with the right wire socket type. |
I just realized this thread was started in April of 2017!! It has outlasted GeorgeHifi as well as MQA and still going strong. Thanks to everyone who has made a constructive contribution to this thread! FYI, I've gone from linear (Parasound) to Class D (ICEpower) to LInear (Luxman) and am about to transition fully to Class-D active speakers based on Hypex amps and DSP. |
I have owned a few Class D amps and had one in my main system years ago, but they were pretty easily bested by other similarly priced solid state or tube amps. A while ago, I had some issues with one of my solid state monoblocks and bought a pair of PS Audio M700 monoblocks to use while they were being repaired. While not quite on par with my reference amps, they were quite good. I ended up flipping them as I had intended to do, but they left a positive impression. I recently bought speakers that my reference amps were having a hard time driving. I decided to give the PS Audio M1200 amps a try. Not only do they supply the power the speakers need to really sing, but they sound as good or better than my solid state amps, which are now for sale. On top of that, they use a tube input, which makes it possible to roll tubes and change the character of the amp. I am quite happy with them. They seem to have unlimited power, are very detailed without being "etched" or rolling off on top, don't take up much space or weigh a ton, and they'll be easy on the power bill. The implementation of Class D has come a long way. |
@phusis just for the curiosity, I purchased a used T1500. The power is insane! I cannot even turn that thing on more than 9 o'clock! I did not do a critical listening but the fan is on at all times and it is not quiet :) I can get super long cables and put that thing in a different room, LOL. |
@celo wrote:
I am referring to the T-series, that share the Class A/B topology and specific design with the S-series, and that sound virtually identical - also compared to HSE-series with regular speaker terminals and a polished front plate that is aimed at the hifi-market. I've heard the T-2000 directly against the S-1400, and any very slight differences there were likely had to do with the S-1400 not being fully run-in yet. Two of us, when pressed for a favorit, preferred the T-2000 for a more well-rounded presentation, and one found the low end on the S-1400 a wee bit more firm and thus more to his liking, but it was splitting hairs. So, no need to go super expensive here - certainly not if one's ears are the final judges. |
@jaymark nice post on the M1200. Did you not own the CODA #16 at one time? If so, how do they compare to the M1200. I have owned the modded Voyager and some other GAN amps, so I have a similar frame of reference. |
Thanks @phusis I wonder what the model is. I am always interested in under the radar products. |
@celo -- MC² Audio. |
@phusis Which British manufacturer with pro amps? |
@phusis You make a good argument not to judge amps by their class alone and to be honest to yourself about what you personally like to listen to. It’s your money, not mine, so you should be happy with your spend. I can explain my likes/dislikes without needing others to feel the same way. |
Some 30 years ago bought my first Class A power amp (42W pure Class A). 7-8 years later, out of sheer curiosity, I initiated a period of using Class D-based amps, from ICEpower, NuForce and others. I liked the NuForce variants the best. Then about 15 years ago I returned to Class A with a Belles amp (SA-30), and preferred it over the more popular Pass amp variants (Pass amps in general are too polite/polished or even boring sounding to my ears - I just don’t find them to sound natural but too "hifi" somehow). The Belles Class A amp is the amp I’ve owned for the longest time - within any reasonable amount of money (easily up to $20k) I haven’t heard anything better. That is, until just a few years ago when I replaced the Belles amp with Class A/B amps from a british manufacturer of pro use studio amps, as to my surprise I actually preferred the latter. I’ve never heard amps less "intrusive" and more balanced sounding, with an equally and naturally analogue, tonally accurate and resolved sound than these. To boot: they’re very powerful. What’s to make of all this from an amp topology perspective, I can’t say. I’d love to try out Class D again at some point and see where it’s gotten so far, but having now found the Class A/B amps referred to earlier I’m not in any hurry nor the least inclined as is to seek out something new here. When/if I do get to that point however, Class D will get its chance - yet again. |
@smargo - I hate to make broad judgements of amp classes, but you bring up an interesting point. There are mega buck class A amps I simply do not like the sound of. I have often wondered if they are an acquired taste, like beer with a strong hops flavoring, while to me most Class D and even A/B amps sounding better than some Class A for my money. Also wonder now if Class D will be an acquired taste for the new generation of audiophiles, who will reject A and even A/B as not sounding as good as D. Kind of how we might prefer mom/dad's cooking to a fancy restaurant. |
Jaymark - thanks for keeping the class d subject alive - albeit with a faint pulse - not sure why people arent bowing down to class d - they did for a while - but now you barely hear anything My arcam power amplifier sounds wonderful - its suppose to be class a up to 50 watts. But as with these types of amps there is always a syrupy nature as well to sound. Class D doesnt have that Class d to my ears is very clear and precise and correct - it still could use a touch of something - instead of being so damn neutral. Im currently listening to a class d amp (peachtree gan) and it sounds very impeccable with good rhythm and timing - Thanks for keeping the flame lit - |
Love my PSAudio M1200 class D hybrid monoblocks. I have and have previously owned PassLabs. Canary Tube monoblocks, PSAudio BHK 300 monoblocks, Parasound JC1 monoblacks Audio Van Alstine FetValve hybrids and LSA Voyager GAN classD amps. I have listened to a wide pallet of exceptional amps. The PSAudio M1200s are at the top of the heap. |
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@mbrusso What kind of speakers do you normally listen with? |
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kdude661,200 posts05-02-2017 6:55amGeorge,Sorry Kenny missed your post question, a while back. In Australia I had both done in one hit the first time when I was young and very fit. Mine took 6hrs the first time for both and 3.5hrs for the right again the second time many years later, should have kept that car window shut, dam it. But it also depends on the doctor, how bad it is and how much stamina the doctors/ anaesthetist/ nursing team have, as one ear can take up to 3-4hrs if really bad. But it’s worth it, you hear like a bat after it, because the doc said the ear drum and it’s bits are being protected while you have the exostosis, in other words not aging as fast. BTW of all the surfers I knew throughout my competition days, I was the only who was ever able to get both done in one go. Cheers George |
justmetoo The Molas go back to 2016 and it should be clear from the many who reviewed them that they live in the warm sound camp: ditto their speaker choices. Not me. After spending a good bit of time with my Ric Schultz EVS 1200 with dual IceEdge 1200AS modules with LOTS OF TWEAKS, one of which is I had to pay an extra $200 for 2 Kubes, that needed to installed by me, to be butted up against each module upon receipt, presumably to deal with any osculation/vibration. I did as the designer wished/mandated, and though it outperformed every other class D amps in my experience (much older W4S amps, Emerald Physics 100.2SEs with upgraded fuses, Audio Alchemy DPA-1, and PS Audio M700s (best of this bunch), I felt there was more to be had. Finally, I removed the top cover in preparation to remove the Kubes, and noticed a huge improvement. The overall sound opened up in all 3 dimensions, including gaining speed on the initial attack and a much lowered noise floor; similar experience when I removed the Kubes. I now hear micro-detail that was obscured. I feel I am hearing it at its best (most revealing) and can finally compare it to my Voyager GaN amp when it comes hth |
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My last 'high end' experience was to save power used by my PaasLabs X350.5 and so I had a test in my system with Mola Mola monos (jolly expensive!). Double the price (then) of my Pass and sounding, 🤔 weird, flat, punchy with funny enough, NO real authority. Money saved, back with the Pass, now paying power bill with a little less pain. Eish! Should I repeat this exercise? 🤔 Answer: Not for some time to come, maybe not till Kingdom come...? I'm pushing 74... never mind Chorona and all. 😎 M. |
I heartily recommend the NuForce STA 200 to anyone looking for bargain solid state audiophile amplification, but it does not do well when pushed to 4ohms and below.Nuforce went back to linear amps, but this is STA200 is just a reincarnation of the budget Job225 from Goldmund. Good little amp but built to a performance level that really doesn't suit down to 2ohms or even below 4ohms, just like Class-D. But probably sounds better to where it can be loaded down to within it's comfort zone. Cheers George |
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A class D a o into 2 Ohms or less is just ear bleeding, cynical, no depth, headroom is nonexistent, Well that’s interesting since so many of us routinely listen to 1 or 2 Ohm speakers, I’d like to know what amps and speakers he reviewed to come to this broad opinion. Hahahaha. |
@guidocorona I neglected to "follow" this thread, until now, so I’m just getting around to your question... In terms of power, the Moabs are rated to handle up to 900wpc. I’ve run 80wpc and now I’m running 300wpc with an XTZ A2-300. The 80wpc would have been fine, sounded wonderful, but the amp could not handle the 4ohm load. I heartily recommend the NuForce STA 200 to anyone looking for bargain solid state audiophile amplification, but it does not do well when pushed to 4ohms and below. To be more exact, the amp performed just fine, even very very fine, so long as I didn’t ask it to produce much more than 80db on a continuous basis. Budgetwise, I'm hoping to stay at $2000 or below. I'm presently on a 30day trail with the XTZ, so I'm interested to hear if anyone can boast a superior experience with a different module than what I'm finding in the IcePower. |
@arctikdeth I want to invite you to take a particular (Class D) amp you have auditioned and give us a clear evaluation of your experience. I've had my first class D amp for about ten days and I have a very hard time equating your summary point or points with my experience. I tend to be interested in different points of view, but more detailed evidence is needed, if you really want to make a solid case... otherwise, I'm just hearing a very strong opinion; we could all benefit from a carefully constructed and amply (NPI) supported viewpoint... |
Class “D”ull while pushed through major companies, is still sub par to my ears! A class D a o into 2 Ohms or less is just ear bleeding, cynical, no depth, headroom is nonexistent, devialet, and all this super high dollar stuff is just bad! ive heard, seriously listened, and given numerous chances. There’s always something missing! if you’ve spent 10K or more on a devialet, or another class D amp, and you love it, kudos, enjoy it. ill stick with my class A - A/AB/H amps. ! the emotion is just not there. My McCormack / Odyssey / Sunfire amps I’ll put up against any class D stuff. Hell, even my aging onkyo tx-890 receiver at 125WPC receiver I’ll put up against the class D amps. Cheers to all. my 2 ¢ |
Hello listening 99, There are certainly several excellent class D amp bargains currently available for attaining very good performance at very reasonable prices. It sounds like you just purchased a prime example. I’ve owned and have heard a wide variety of class D amps in the past 10 years and I’ve noticed some come common qualities shared by the entire group regardless of price. These general qualities are very solid and taut bass, very low distortion, an extremely low noise floor, very good detail and a very neutral overall sonic presentation, with seemingly nothing added or subtracted from the inputted signals. I’ve found the most obvious benefit of the better, and more expensive, class D amps is the quality of their mid-range, treble and holographic imaging abilities. Currently, some class D amps rival the performance of the best amps available, regardless of amp type. Unfortunately however, the prices of the best class D amps also rival the prices of the best traditional amps. Because of this, when I felt the urge to upgrade, I decided to restrict my budget to an amount I could afford but also decided not to restrict my search options to a particular amp type. I still thought a mid priced class D amp, a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks with Scandinavian Abletec power modules for about $2,100/pr, performed best driving my speakers. I also knew for certain through in-home auditions, that this was thousands less than comparably performing traditional amps. Tim |
Thanks for the reflections that might help me dial in my speakers/system from an amplification angle. So, this is where I am (1): just bought and have been using the XTZ A2-300, which runs off IcePower. Amazingly, the sound signature is NOT much different from my NuForce STA200. It may be, in the Nuforce, that the midband is slightly more rich, more lustrous, but in normal listening, where I’m more into enjoying than critiquing, the differences quickly fall away. The new XTZ runs cool, supplies more than adequate juice (up to 470@2.7ohms), seems to provide a little more shape to instruments within the soundstage than the Nuforce. For instance, the dimensions of the drum set in my favorite ’instrument’ reference CD, Harry Connick Jr’s "Lofty’s Roach Soufflé" is more realistic. I’ve also noticed micro-dynamics from the XTZ that seem a little more glossed over in the Nuforce. Unfortunately, I think there are huge psychological impacts that arrive with a new piece of gear, and the mind/ears are more vigilant and likely make a bigger deal over presumed new discoveries that might have been equally attractive if someone had fooled me and placed my previous amp in the chain before playing a song I have been cycling for the past several months. I'm all too familiar with my enthusiasm for the new sexy thing that arrives in the post and how that enthusiasm carries me through the opening phase or two with that sexy new thing. So, here is where I am (2) ... I’ve paid $500 for the XTZ. It’s great, no problem. However, I know it’s definitely a bargain audiophile product and while it is amazing for the money, I’m wondering if anyone can speak to how IcePower compares to the Purifi module, or the Hypex modules, or Pascal.... I mean, if I can pay an extra $1000 or $1500, would I hear substantive improvement in soundstage, tonal accuracy, vocal purity, etc., or am I just about ’there.’ I know it’s only I that can say for sure, but have any of you studied the differences between these amps and found significant distinctions from one modern class D amp to the next? Thank you, |
Listening99 the criticisms I saw of the vtv amp were just nitpicking. Their prices are the best, they use nice thick cases sourced from Ghent and it’s in the USA so no customs worries. It’s a good deal. If you’re worried about pcb and wiring layout, apollon in Italy is known to be good with that. But they use cases sourced from hifi2000/modushop which are kind of thin. I came super close to getting a purifi amp from vtv but I realized I have way too many unused amps in my collection as it is |
Hello listening99, I’m not quite sure who you’re directing your question to. If it’s me, I don’t think I’m the best individual to answer your question. My experience with class D amps has mainly been searching for ones that best drive my former Magnepan 2,7QR and current Magnepan 3.7i main speakers, which are both only about 86db@ 1 watt and much less efficient than your 98db@ 1 watt Tekton Moabs. The best amp I’ve ever used on my speakers are a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D mono-block amps. But these amps output 1,200 watts into my 4 ohm speakers, which seems excessive to me for your 4 ohm speakers. Unfortunately, I have no experience utilizing high efficiency speakers since I was 18, 44 years ago. Therefore, I have very little useful knowledge to share with you except I believe you don’t need to exclude any amps or amp types from your search. Hopefully, you’ll receive some other lower power suggestions from other readers of this thread, Tim |
