Sfseay,
Well said +1
Kenny.
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Sounds like you guys are getting a little too technical for me,but keep the thread going because it's so nice to read positives about class d and not the usual negatives.
All I can say about class d is it has come a long way but will probably continue improving as time goes by.I started into class d about 4 yrs ago with a set of diy nc400 and I own a set of bel canto ref600m and I have a new red dragon s500.I have been in this hobby for 30 yrs and have been blessed with all kinds of nice gear.I practically gave away a pass labs xa30.8 and first watt j2 on the used market just because they did'nt better any of my class d amps.
At the end of the day it is still all about the music and the amount of emotion and involvement that I can receive,and class d does it for me,not looking for class a or tube amps anymore.
Kenny.
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Erik,
Class d amplification is just "DANDY".
Thank You for starting this thread.
Kenny. |
George,
I have looked at at the technics,very interesting,now we need other designers too go in that direction and evolve.
I had one of the very first technics CD players in 1983,touting perfect sound forever,I now have a ps direct stream.Look how far digital has evolved but it has taken a long time.With me it's not about the money,I can buy just about anything I want,If I like it I will Buy it.A good example of me is auditioning a set of demo magico q3 at a dealer with money in hand but I really wasn't that impressed because they really didn't better what I currently own in speakers.
Basically there is a lot of hype in this industry and I really don't have time for it,I just want too everyday enjoy the music.
My most recent purchase is a set of tekton double impacts,I get them next wed.I read about them and then I called Eric and asked a few questions that he quickly answered which sold me instantly to purchase.I respect his talents as a speaker designer and I will see if I like them or not.I know he makes some very bold statements about his speakers and has even gotten a patient for his design.
Kenny.
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Erik,
Buried on page 5 of the NC400 spec sheet is the figure relating to output coil inductance. Typically, 10uH. This equates to an output impedance of 1.25 Ohms at 20kHz and SIGNIFICANT phase shift within the audio band.
Page 8, graph 9.1 is particularly telling. -0.5dB @ 20kHz is nothing to write home about. It also suggests serious phase shift problems well down into the audible spectrum.
I remember seeing more info somewhere about this,but I did'nt save it.
This is related to the nc400 only but I did'nt stress about it too much I just continue to enjoy them.I do like my 600 m's more than the 400, but I'm using my nc400 right now.
I hope this points u in the right direction,I way spend some time later looking for more info.
Kenny.
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Eric,
You must excuse George, He has his own beliefs and agenda related too class d.On every forum on multiple sites related to class d I see his name.
Of course, time marches on, and progress will be made but what we have now is really very very good.
Amen Erik.
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George,
Right on track,I love it.
I was eventually going to post this info but you beat me too it.
Kenny.
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I can easily comment a little about the pairing of class d with efficient speakers.I have been using d with Zu definitions for 4'yrs and also a pair of Crites cornscalas that I built for 2 yrs.Basically if the first watt of any amp is no good I don't want x amount more of them.There has been a lot of people say that high damping factor of any class of Amp is'nt a good match too full range drivers which cause over damping of the cones and don't sound as natural in a musical note decay.I found this not true too my ears,I have owned lots of tube and class a amps over my time and my preference in the music presentation leads me back too the class d amps I currently own.I had a pair of the Janzen Valentina hybrid ESL speakers recently for 6 months and drove them with class d very well.But I like the Zu's better in my room and kept them.I have a pair of Tekton double impacts that will arrive this wed and I will see how they sound with class d.
The only negatives to class d is driving the exotic speakers,the ones that drop below 3ohms.
Reproducing audio in the home has and will always be highly subjective and system synergy has tremendous benefits.
Erik,
I'm not a Amp designer but I have been a Avionics tech at a major airline for 28 yrs,so I have a fair understanding of electronics in general.It is very cool and also very interesting too learn as much as we can about our gear but you are going to hurt your head just like I have trying to fully grasp class d.I prefer to just kick back and enjoy the music.I recently caught myself analyzing my double impact speakers before I even get them,crossover points and driver configuration.There is a lot of positives for class d now and in the future.
Kenny. |
I would think your not using a ncore 400 or 500 to do that.
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Offcourse it has always been about synergy and preferences,that should be a given.
Kenny. |
Tim,
Offcouse I have read all this info before,I appreciate you taking the time to post all of this pertinent info so others can read it too.
I like this statement the best-
I'm just wondering how we'll be able to perceive the absence of something as a sonic improvement when we didn't perceive the presence of that something in the first place.
I have been been blessed to own a lot of really nice gear over the 30 yrs I have been in this hobby,but I really enjoy my present day class d amps.
Kenny.
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Henry,
Keep us informed with the pairing.I wish you the best of luck.
I have'nt been involved with panels of any kind in a few years and now don't have the room for them anyway.But I did recently over the Christmas break try my pair of nc400's with a friends pair of Infinity kappa 9's with not very good results when pushed a little.The speakers sounded very strained and soundstage collapsed.I know these speakers well because I gave them too him about 15 yrs ago and I bought them new in the day.
The pair were restored by me 3yrs ago,doing the usual surround replacement on the woofers and I replaced all internal wiring and rebuilt the crossovers with better caps.We also tried my pair of ref600m with slightly better results.
It would have been nice to try a higher pwr ice on them nether of us own any.
Henry,
Can you give us any details about your special edition amps?
Kenny.
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George,
Those have been on digikey with a 12 week lead time for at least 6 months or so.
I haven't heard of anybody including DIY using them or even ordering them.
The old time will tell saying is in full swing I guess.
Kenny.
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Noble100,
Tim,I'm so glad for you too hear that you have recovered that well.
I really love my job as well and I would greatly miss it if something happened like you have been through.
I really like hearing how you like your dsonics,I almost bought a pair a few months back,I had a very good conversation with Mr. Deacon over the phone.But a used pair of bel canto ref600m came up at a good price.I also wanted to try another ncore product without moving too the much more expensive 1200's.
Best of luck to you,
Kenny.
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George,
If I'm not mistaken,do you still have a pair of ref600m.
If so what amps do you like better and what speakers do you use.
Just curious.
Kenny.
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George,
I bet that combo sounds spectacular.
If I owned Martin logans either past or present,I don't think I would use a class d Amp of any kind,just my opinion.
I personally have gone a different direction,usually a person buys the speakers that they like and then pairs the right amp for them.I like my class d amps so much that I'm gonna find and pair the right speakers for them.Kinda unusual but that's me.
Kenny.
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Henry,
I would be more inclined to measure the in room response of your speakers and see what you get.
Kenny. |
I have a new Red Dragon S500 I eventually will try out,haven't got too it yet,will be a diff. class d module then the ncore's I do have.
I will write a comparison review when I do try them.
Has anybody else tried this amp and what speakers do you use them with.
Kenny.
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Hello all,
I read this statement on another forum and thought it sums up my outlook,each to there own Offcourse.
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Kenny.
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Absolutely all that and more.
I was a long time tube and class a guy,not anymore.
Offcourse it's system dependent.
Kenny.
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Hello all,
Each individual component of a class d amp,the pwr supply,the input module or board,and Offcourse the class d module brand,work together in a synergistic way in the end result.
It's all up to the amp designer and the implementation of mentioned components,all 3 amps that I own are slightly different.
If you look at the other classes of solid state amps,the above mentioned matters to their design as well.
Class d amps have come a long way and will continue to improve as time goes by,which is true with any newer technology.
Kenny.
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I've heard it said (by a class D proponent) that ICE sucks, but Iceedge is going to be a game-changer. Truth?
Also, it's widely claimed that class D is improved with linear power supplies -- fact or fiction?
Extremely uneducated and immature statements from somebody that has no real experience with class d for any substantial amount of time and really doesn't belong on this thread and should stay on his trash thread unless have something positive to contribute.
My hats off too Erik for starting this thread probably knowing well that we that like class d would have to put up with this crap.
Look which tread has the most interest of the 2,It's this one.
Thank You,Erik.
Kenny. |
Randy,
Which sunfire do you own?
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Todd,
I'm glad you love what you have,Ghent audio makes nice cases I have them on my Nc400's.and I have heard they make a good Amp as well for the money.
It's all about the music and if you get enjoyment with the gear you own and fits your budget I would'nt worry about it.
Can you tell us what amps that the Ghent's replaced.
All the best to you and enjoy,
Kenny.
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George,
Nice try I've read it all many times before.
What are we going to do with you?
Bruno never calls his modules digital,class "D" was just the next letter in the alphabet that hadn't been used yet.
I know that tomorrow I will get too listen for 6hrs of wonderful non fatiguing class d amplified music.
Kenny. |
I love the use of a page of 10 year old quotes about a developing technology.
Beyond that, the article may only prove that all those famous designers didn't succeed in producing a good Class D amp. Only shows that they couldn't do it - not that it can't be done. As Bruno points out, it's a different engineering knowledge and skill set that many audio designers don't have.
Kenny.
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Madavid,
Sorry, but there has NOT been significant strides in class D since then -- has there? If some of the legendary names in amp design aren't good enough, what would be?
I don't think that you quite get it,
There hasn't yet been a perfect amp designed or probably will never be that satisfys everyone's ears in the Sonics that each of us individually desire.
I can fully assure you that I will always have great respect for these legendary names in amp design.
I will comment on Nelson's Amps,
Over the years I have owned many of his designs starting with the 400a and several other Thresholds,Pass Aleph 30 and Aleph 2 mono's, x-150,Xa-30.8 and then building the F5 from him graciously giving to the Diy community,The last owned and recently sold was the J2.I fully enjoyed every one of them,But the class D amps that I have now Satisfy my ears with the least shortcomings of any Amp I have ever owned in my 30 yrs in this hobby.
Comparing class a amps to class d amps is like comparing apples to oranges,which one is better is always going to be highly subjective.
At the end of the day,
It's all about the music and getting closer to it.
Kenny.
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lalitk,
I haven't used my s-500 dragon very much,I have week old speakers so I'm using my 600m's because I know their sound and they have plenty of hrs on them.
I think you would be happier with a pair of dragons with your 800 d2's.I'm not that familiar with the Ati amps,they look very good though.I think they need more pwr then one s-500 can provide.
I'm personally looking at the Ps audio 700's mono's and maybe the Bhk preamp.I will let the dust settle and see what more user impressions have to say.
Overall very satisfied with my canto's for now.
Kenny.
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Todd,
"The gods must be crazy!"
I think all of us are a little bit.
Exactly what is Normal?
LOL
Kenny.
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Al,
I will have too check this movie out,never heard of it.
I'm more a music guy,don't watch many movies.
Kenny. |
Jtsnead,
I have been following the evolution of the Nord since the inception of them,Rollable op amps,very cool.Colin North has quite a following on audio shark forum.
The Bhk preamp looks like a good fit for me and there is several used up for sale.Thanks for the info.
Madavid,
You may want to try a warmer sounding solid state or tube preamp with your d-Sonics.
Let us know the details of your current system and what kind of musical presentation or flavor that you are looking for.
Kenny.
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George,
Were can a mate get a bi-aural Exostosis operation?
Can it be accomplished in the states or would I have to go down under.
Kenny.
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audioman,
Skeptic,I once was as well.
I haven't had a chance to hear the Thor but I have heard many good things from them and I'm glad you are enjoying them.
We would like to hear about your current system and maybe what the Thor amps replaced.
Kenny.
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lalitk,
Ive been using my set of 600m's for 14 months paired with a canto pre3 which I have had much longer.
I used the nc400 for 4yrs before I got the 600 and I have a red dragon s-500 that only has 100 hrs on it.
I have always been a fan of higher pwr amps even with higher efficient speakers,I started 30 yrs ago in this hobby with Khorns and a Mac 275.
I don't really know for sure and haven't seen any documentation yet that says higher pwr Class d amps don't sound as good as lower power class d amps.
Maybe someone with more knowledge and experience with class d amps only than me could chime in.
Kenny.
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Yes I agree,Class D not Digital is Dandy.
I have reached 100 hrs on my dragon s500 and not really much change.It's a little lean and bright,nothing horrible,compared to my 600m's.I won't fully evaluate it till past 1000hrs,I have it playing in my 2nd system for now.Time will tell.
Kenny.
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ricred,
There is a pair on audiogon,if you didn't see them.
Kenny. |
Ralph,
When do you think you will have your class d ready to sale.
Can you give us any details about it.
Kenny.
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Hello All,
On a different speaker I would expect the situation to be reversed. Just saying- its important to include the speaker when talking about what is 'competitive'; blanket statements can get tricky in high end audio.
So very true,So much too matching speakers and amps.
Kenny. |
Hello all,
I have over 500 hrs on my S-500 and thought I might comment a little about it.I think it's a step up in Sound vs nc400 and ref600m,these are the 3 class d amps that I own and I have access to more through a local audio club where we lend and or borrow equipment or occasionally listen to each other's systems.
I have been using a bel canto pre3 with all the diff. amps just to make a even playing field,the pre 3 is a pure water no coloration preamp.
The S-500 is the best class d amp I have had in my system and it has the warmest most engaging midrange with very sweet nicely extended top end that has more air and separation with the individual instruments making the entire frequency range very coherent.The bass is equally as good maybe better than my other class d amps listed.
I borrowed a Nuprime st10 to try out and found it too be a very close match to the S-500,with the nod to the S-500 for the best overall sound especially the midrange.
Offcourse this is in my system with my ears and judging the musical presentation that I prefer.
The next test will be comparison with a modwright kwa100se that I have owned for a few years but I haven't used it in about 3 years,I have loaned it out to club members though.I know it's a very good amp but can it equal or beat the S-500,only time will tell.
So many very good choices out there nowadays,
Kenny. |
Todd,
Glad to hear the amp is working now,You gotta be careful buying stuff like that you never know how misleading some folks can be.
Kenny.
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That is correct,that's why I didn't bother with any corrections.
Kenny.
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Chrisr,
What are you asking?
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That's enough class d nonsense for me,I'm saleing all of mine and going to buy more first watts.
Best,
Kenny.
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