Class D Amplification Announcement

My audiophile days are decades in the rear view mirror. Now, its all about fun. Just what acoustic, live, setting will allow me to calibrate my ears with Donna Summers ‘I feel love’? ;) P.S. looks like someone is getting paid by the carriage return…

@kokakolia 

I've just ordered a Hifimediy TK2050 amplifier board.

Check it out.

Tripath sound with power!!!

You need to add a power supply, input and output terminals, and of course a box (a piece of wood works).

There are huge threads about it on diyaudio.com where you can find all build informations. 

That thing has great components throughout and even has speaker protection relays built-in. I can't wait to build mine!

Okay, okay. I think I may have found a limitation to my cheap-ass class D China amp (Tripath T2024 chip with only 10W of power). And it took me some time because I was mostly listening to my regular music, which is soft rock and acoustic. The amp sounds very nice to me, just warm enough not to be sterile. It’s also more detailed than the previously owned Yamaha RN402.

Yoshimatsu: Symphony No 4 is the album which punched me in the gut. I have to crank the volume up to 80% to fill the room. And I feel like I’m still missing a dynamic punch. Is this a limitation of my amp or my speakers (Closer Acoustics Ogy + Rel T5x sub)?

@twoleftears

you dummy, you just needed to use some audiophile fuses in that emotiva, and then a shakti stone on top, then it would be a world beater!!!

now, for cheap-ass chinese class d... one needs synergistic fuses, shakti stone, AND cable lifters!

Your news sounds exciting!  

I bought a cheap Emotiva class A/B amp, but it didn't do it for me, so I tossed in it the trash.  Based on that experience, I dismissed class A/B as an inferior amplifier topology.

IDK 🤷‍♂️. I have a pair of Jeff Rowland Model 501’s pushing a pair of Watt/Puppy 5.1’s and the sound is amazing. Power for days and they don’t get hot. First class D amps for me and I’m super happy with the setup. 

Tried a cheap Chinese class D amp once just to see what all the fuss is about.  It sounded good but created RF noise that was picked up by my ham radio transceiver so I tossed it in the can.  

@badgerdms agree on the NAD stuff being sterile. I have had a couple and ended up either selling them or sending them to University with one of my kids.

The Cambridge EVO series peaks my interest but at that price I can get the Simaudio ACE and have a nice kit for the garage. 
 

@mervo "The LAPC and JENO circuits are real tech."

YES!  I was playing with the LAPC last night.  It's pretty impressive.

I'll only say that if I was searching in the sub $3K integrated category I haven't heard anything that touches the new Technics g700m2.  You can drop it into a reference system and call it whatever class of amp you want.  I played with the NAD M33 for a while, found it sterile, and moved on.  I've also got stuff from Gold Note, Naim,  McGary, Backert Labs and Linear Tube Audio in the house and the Technics is no joke on a par.  Is presentation different?  Sure.  But I'll be damned if it isn't difficult to pick a winner.

@phd Ha! You're feeding into the hype! 

Class A and Class AB will never be obsolete in the second-hand market. Sometimes I wonder if it's not wiser to score a Denon/Yamaha/Pioneer/Onkyo/NAD amp for $100 on the used market and pair that with sufficiently good speakers and call it a day. 

I might be diverting the conversation towards budget gear and vintage gear. But I would love a comparison between a vintage A/B amp and a cheap China amp using class D. 

To me the high end is clouded in a veneer of romanticism and craftsmanship. For example people who buy expensive tube amplifiers are not interested in getting the best performance metrics. They're looking for a unique experience. This may explain why some audiophiles have several different amps/speakers/turntables and DACs for different experiences. It's just nice to switch it up. 

Of course it has arrived and not a minute too soon. If this is not announced they won't be able to sell any new boxes. They're going to have to start sending out to some interested parties a test amp so that they can be sampled and thus the good word can be spread. This time they mean it, get ready folks to finally toss out your class A and Class AB amps.

**** The idea that there can be a high rez system (def: revealing of the recording) that is not well-balanced is, if anything, a contradiction in terms. ****

Wrong! Most audiophiles with systems that have aspirations of being truly “High End” (high rez) have systems that sound distinctly different from each other. IOW, they are each balanced differently. So, by extension, it can be said that some (most?) are not balanced well. Some are, and it is these that can best reproduce a great recording of live acoustic, or minimally amplified music really well. It is also those systems that can reproduce “Kamakiriad” or “Close to the Edge” with sound closest to what the engineer/producer intended; IOW, sound closest to what is actually on the recording. That sound may not be to the listener’s liking, but it will be closest to what is actually there.

**** Whether or not the listener is familiar with the sound of live music (I am) is simply not relevant- neither the recordings nor the equipment is designed to simulate a live performance. ****

Wrong on both counts.  Telling, the use of the word “designed” in reference to recordings. Many recordings strive to simulate the sound of the performance as it sounded live. Likewise, many of the best audio equipment designers have as their goal getting as close as possible to the sound of live. Just ask them if you get a chance.

**** How much of the music that is consumed these days is comprised of acoustic instruments on a stage, recorded ‘live’? Virtually zero.****

With respect, you should get out more often 😊

Cheers.

“…so if a system makes them sound “live” it’s manipulating the crap out of the recording and is highly inaccurate.”

I’m reminded of Yes’ album, Close To The Edge.  Not the greatest recording, but it very nicely gets the job done.  When Rick Wakeman’s church organ comes in, are we meant to believe we’ve been transported to a cathedral?  Thankfully, the recording engineer didn’t waste any effort trying to make it sound that way.

I do not believe the majority of " audiophiles " know how to listen to music, and are listening to the things that do not correspond to live, unamplified musical performances. Buying an amplifier, to make Nils Lofgren’s guitar ( from Keith Don’t Go, Live ) " sound " a better way....a different way, in tone, in stage location, all from a source that was recorded ( it is done regularly by most ). Music has several key components....rhythm, texture, dynamics, pitch, form and timbre. Admittedly, I have a musical background, and learned about music. I listen to recorded music a particular way, and my low cost system ( compared to others here ), delivers the goods, that pleases me and engages me.

The idea that a good recording is supposed to simulate a live performance is simply false for the vast majority of recordings.

Big +1. Listen to Donald Fagan’s Kamakiriad or Morph the Cat — they were clearly recorded in a studio with absolutely no pretense of sounding at all like live music, so if a system makes them sound “live” it’s manipulating the crap out of the recording and is highly inaccurate. But, as I said earlier, different strokes…

The sound of a high rez two channel system sounds nothing like live music

Three possibilities:

-The ‘high rez’ system is not assembled well; it is not well balanced.

-Recordings being played are not very good.

-The listener is not familiar with the sound of live music.

———

The idea that there can be a high rez system (def: revealing of the recording) that is not well-balanced is, if anything, a contradiction in terms. The qualifier ‘well balanced’ is so vague as to be essentially useless.

There is no universal definition as to what constitutes a good recording, other than that it sounds good. The idea that a good recording is supposed to simulate a live performance is simply false for the vast majority of recordings.

Whether or not the listener is familiar with the sound of live music (I am) is simply not relevant- neither the recordings nor the equipment is designed to simulate a live performance. Which is as it should be. How much of the music that is consumed these days is comprised of acoustic instruments on a stage, recorded ‘live’? Virtually zero.

soix - the amp it's replacing is Music Reference RM10 MkII which I've enjoyed for 11 years now, one of my favorites of a long line of high quality tube and SS amps.

Fantastic advice from Atmasphere re making one’s recordings “to know what’s right and what isn’t”.  I would include and stress increased attendance to live performances.  In that advice is the simple reality that there IS a “right”…..certainly within a narrower spectrum of variability (for various reasons) than that which I hear among many different audio systems, all claimed to be right (“accurate”).

The Aavik integrated amp mentioned had my interest...very nice..until I saw the price. Not happening for me anytime soon. Top notch sound, at least to meet my requirements, need not cost that much these days thanks to widespread related advances in technology. Were I to take a plunge like that, I would expect support beyond the norm at a minimum to help insure the investment.

An unbiased shootout with the competition to maybe help justify the cost would be interesting. But it looks like a boutique type product at least for American consumers and that alone will draw some interest. Especially when everything else prior is purposefully labeled a "disappointment" by the OP.

I recently upgraded my Class D amp in my main system from older Bel Canto ref1000m IcePower based (already quite excellent) to a more recent Hypex-based design. Being an engineer myself always with an eye on new legit technical innovations that can move things forward, I was considering the various GaN options as well, including AGD amps I heard in another A’goner’s system, but did not find exactly what I was looking for yet with GaN (based on features more so than sound alone), so tried the Hypex-based product  and it is not leaving anytime soon. Meanwhile, will wait to see what else new comes out in next few years, GaN and otherwise, and see what happens then.   Several  Purifi-based products were also given strong consideration.

Never any love for LKV on Audiogon.

https://lkvresearch.com/lkv-pwr-3-amplifier.html

For the voltage-gain circuitry, the PWR-3 uses a Class A, zero-feedback circuit designed by LKV’s Chief Designer Bill Hutchins. This circuit delivers life-like sound due to careful design and component matching, including 40 hand-matched, discrete jfets. For the high current output stage, Bill selected the Purifi 1et400A module, which implements Putzey’s breakthrough.

At what point do you guys say that your gear is "close enough" and start listening to music intentionally?

I have recordings I recorded and mastered. I was there at the musical event. I use these recordings for reference, since I was there. I recommend anyone who really wants to compare against the live performance to get a set of good mics and a decent recorder, then get out there and make recordings- very helpful for knowing what is right and what isn’t.

Once you get that part right then you can listen to other recordings on the same system to see how they are rendered. That is really the only way I’ve found to get at ’the absolute sound’.

@pehare What tube amp were you comparing the Atmaspheres  to?

@pehare

Are you going to start a thread????????????

Class D is like Bluetooth or USB--a licensed technology that must adhere to certain standards and chipsets

This statement is 100% wrong and apparently poorly informed. Class D is nothing like Bluetooth or USB other than in someone’s mind apparently.

Class D is a design approach. Anyone can try and build one anyway they choose

It does often but not always involve popular modular designs or a board/component that can be used to build a complete amp product.

The reason certain modules are popular are because they are the product of a lot of modern technical innovations done well ( as a result of years of R&D) and therefore THEY ARE VERY GOOD ie they do the job very well and often for more modest cost.

Not to say everyone will choose them. That is never the case. Personal preferences always rule in the end. Some simply may not believe that technology always moves forward but in fact as a whole it always does.

Glad we cleared that one up. 😉

My experience has been is that there is rarely a "one size fits all" when it comes to audio gear. It takes some mixing and matching to get the sound that you prefer...and it is quite likely that others might think it could be improved to make it to their liking.

Benchmark gets a lot of love...but some think its too lean.  Pass gets a lot of love, but many don't want the heat.

I have a buddy with a Magnepan 3.7i set up.  I've heard it recently with three different amps...they all sound a little different, but they all sound really good in his room....Halo A21, Sanders Magtech and Lyngdorf 2170.

The Lyngdorf is probably the surprise of this group???  It is even better with room perfect engaged...and when used as a preamp for the other amps and when room perfect is on, it seems to improve them as well.

at the low cost end of the spectrum there is the excellent little mini gan5 - $700

it doesn’t have the uber silky refinement and tonal density of the agd’s but for the money it is very very nice amp, small in form factor only

slightly leaner midbass, slightly drier bass, very refined treble, very few classic solid state nasties, and does not have the bleached out lifeless sound of typical ice or purifi module based units

I guess you've never listened through TacT or Lyngdorf Millenium II or IV amplifiers! There are alternatives in digital amps. All this focus on "Class D" is stupid.  TacT goes back to about 2000 with their Millenium II which was a 24/96 and 2003 or 2005 with their Mk III. Lyngdorf then created the 4 after Peter Lyngdorf and Boz parted ways. Class D is like Bluetooth or USB--a licensed technology that must adhere to certain standards and chipsets. And to the doinks who prefer to look at an ugly, made for a rack, in their living room or whatever room in your home, well, have at it. There is benefit to cabinet construction, including the solidity to the fascia as well. About.2% of people want to or have the skills to DIY. What's a joke is the dismissals based on no experience and the experiences of reviewers.

@frogman Album tracks have autotune, drumbeat correction, volume compression etc... to enhance the clarity. I mean just compare demo tapes to finished albums and you’ll hear why enhancements are highly desirable. This implies that the album doesn’t sound like the live performance, even in a recording studio.

I’m assuming that you only listen to live recordings of acoustic performances. Softer acoustic performances in well-treated rooms sound inherently crystal clear, so enhancements aren’t necessary. So you’re limiting your musical library immensely.

And to be frank, the importance of a balanced hi-res system is overstated (IMHO). Budget gear is getting better by the year, especially dirt cheap class D amps. AND for people like me LIVE music is way more affordable and accessible than high-end Hi-Fi. That's the perk of living in a metropolis I suppose. 

There’s also the LSA Voyager GaN 350 from Underwood HiFi. 

@mapman ,

Got it. I have certainly read user reviews on Orchard, but not as many for Peachtree. Don’t know why; but I am more gravitating towards GaN over other Class D tech. Will try to audition different types when I am ready for a change.

**** The sound of a high rez two channel system sounds nothing like live music****

Three possibilities:

- The “high rez”’system is not assembled well; is not well balanced.

- Recordings being played are not very good.

- The listener is not familiar with the sound of live music.

A great recording played back on a well balanced (!) high resolution system can sound, while never exactly like, fairly close to the sound of live.

**** What we are looking for at home is a hyper real (as in unreal) experience****

No offense intended, but speak for yourself. That is not what many of us are looking for.

I suppose it’s a sign of the times. Hyper real flavors in food (way too salty). Hyper loud movies and concerts. Hyper fast, hyper personalized experiences. Hyper connectivity, and more. I’m old school, I prefer my music to sound as natural as possible; as close as possible to the real thing. Others may want a different experience. As far as I’m concerned Harry Pearson had it right. However, to each his own. Enjoy your music!

Well for GaN specifically orchid audio, Peachtree (what’s with all the fruit references ?) and Class D Audio come to mind. But the topic was Class D in general.  GaN may be a useful new technology but many modern modest cost Class D amp designs do things exceptionally well and are competitive.   I believe personal preferences will be the main deciding factor, as is commonly the case when talking about high quality products these days. 

@mapman 

I am going based on solid user recommendations. What other choices in GaN amplifications are available? Will certainly be interested to know.

Those two are both good I’m sure ( have heard AGD but not yet Atmas Class D) and popular brands on this site but by far not the only very good choices and for sure not the most cost effective, if that is a consideration. 

@pehare 

That is some recommendation now - replacing tube amp with the Class D amp. Good to know that Ralph's Class D amps sound amazing.

I trust as genuine - because this comes from a member who has been on this site long enough and posts regularly unlike "fake" reviews, when a user registers and immediately posts a positive review and then 10 more users do the same.

So for me, it looks like Ralph's amps along with the AGD amps are the top ones to consider if and when I decide to change my amps.

Harry Pearson used to claim that The Absolute Sound (title) refers to the sound of live music.  The sound of a high rez two channel system sounds nothing like live music, in the same way that a high rez home theatre doesn't sound or look like real life.  What we are looking for at home is a 'hyper-real' (as in unreal) experience.  Its a high tech trick that we have learned to enjoy.

A little over a week ago I took delivery of the Atma-sphere class D monos and they were great out of the box but after 3 days they really opened up and are the best amps I've ever heard or owned and wonderful with my Tannoys.  I'm hearing more detail from top to bottom, very smooth, natural and open sounding.  Vocals and instruments sound more real.  Looks like my tube amp is going to market.  Kudos to Ralph and company!

I believe that audiophiles are chasing a sharper definition than the real world. In the real world everything just blends together into a wall of sound and through the reverberations of the room. There’s no stereo effect and crystal clear "instrument separation". In the real world most live performances are way too loud and confused. Soft jazz, acoustic music and orchestral music avoid that problem.

@kokakolia I agree. I think the recording engineers enhance the 3D imaging/soundstage to compensate for us not being able to see where the musicians are placed in the performance. I confess that while it might not be true to how a lot of live music actually sounds, I like it and it enhances my listening experience. One good example is “Like JT” from Patricia Barber’s Companion CD where it’s clear the engineers worked to add a sense of depth, but damn it sounds so good I could care less.

@kokakolia +1! Shadows on a cave wall! Listening to music at home is far removed from real life experience! 

My 2 cents on live performances:

- Most rock performances sound like garbage. The drums and electric guitars are often too loud. The bass guitar and vocals are often too quiet. The sound is way too loud and confused near the stage. The sound improves significantly when standing far away (but then the band looks like ants on a stage and you're wondering why you bothered to go to a live performance).

- Electronic music is similar to rock in terms of volume. You have to stand really far from the stage to get a good sound. 

- Acoustic folk/Jazz music in a small venue is bliss. But you realize that instrument separation and stereo effect only happen with Hi-Fi equipment. In the real world everything kinda blends together. The band is performing on a small stage after all.

- Orchestral music. Wow! You get a wall of sound effect where you can feel the air moving and the walls vibrating. Again, stereo effect, soundstage and instrument separation lose all meaning in the real world. You get a wall of sound. You feel the music in your bones. 

My 3 cents:

I believe that audiophiles are chasing a sharper definition than the real world. In the real world everything just blends together into a wall of sound and through the reverberations of the room. There's no stereo effect and crystal clear "instrument separation". In the real world most live performances are way too loud and confused. Soft jazz, acoustic music and orchestral music avoid that problem. 

At what point do you guys say that your gear is "close enough" and start listening to music intentionally? 

Understood and I appreciate your attitude in the face of disagreement.

**** the live music thing alway struck me as kinda silly. ****

I could not disagree more. To use your example and turn it around, are we to use studio recordings as a benchmark for whether a system is performing well with recordings of acoustic music performed in a hall?

**** a good system strives to reproduce what the artist/recording engineer intended****

How do we know what they intended? We don’t. Re gear comparisons:

**** Example — Review speaker X sound brighter and more detailed than speaker Y. While a reader may not have heard speaker Y they may know the house sound of the brand or other speakers that sound similar to speaker Y, ****

How does a listener know what speakers sound similar to speaker Y if they have never heard speaker Y? This tells the listener nothing useful, imo.

Contrary to popular belief, there are enough “constants” in the various aspects of the sound of live music which allow a listener who is very familiar with the sound of live music to better judge how faithfully a piece of gear reproduces that sound. Of course, for this approach to be useful there has to be an interest in attending live performances in order to form a useful reference point.

**** To me there’s always room for more than one opinion because people see/hear things differently so there can’t be one right answer ****

I agree that there is always room for more than one opinion. As to the second part of your comment:

Yes, we all hear things differently. However, whatever physiological differences may exist among listeners which then cause us to hear differently will exist whether we are listening to a live performance, or to an electronically reproduced one. For instance, if my hearing apparatus hears with a dip at, say, 2K that dip will be there when I attend a concert as well as when I sit in front of my stereo at home. That is why comparison to live is useful and, imo, the most informative. Of course, there are many more aspects of sound than frequency balance to consider when judging gear.  

@frogman The purpose of doing comparisons is really twofold — it provides the reviewer a check on what he/she thinks they are hearing, and it gives the readers a relative comparison for context. Humans are notoriously bad at absolutes and very good at judging relative differences, and it really matters not if the reader has heard the comparison product as the relative comparison in and of itself provides very useful information. Example — Review speaker X sound brighter and more detailed than speaker Y. While a reader may not have heard speaker Y they may know the house sound of the brand or other speakers that sound similar to speaker Y, which makes this comparison extremely useful. Also, if the reader knows they like more a laid back/warm speaker presentation it gives them an area to key in on if/when they look into speaker X further.

As to your second point, the live music thing alway struck me as kinda silly. What if a recording was made in the studio and made to sound like it was made in the studio (i.e. Donald Fagan’s solo work)? Are we to use live music as a benchmark for whether a system is performing well with those recordings? I think not. To me, a good system strives to reproduce what the artist/recording engineer intended and if it does it well it almost always sounds good unless the recording is crap. To judge everything through the lens of live music when a lot of music is not recorded live seems misplaced to me.

All that said, I don’t want anyone to mistake the passion for my opinions for me thinking I’m right because that’s not the case at all. I make my points and other people make theirs and that’s what keeps things interesting and also how we learn from others’ points of view. To me there’s always room for more than one opinion because people see/hear things differently so there can’t be one right answer — it’s impossible with the myriad of variables present. Anyway, that’s my take on it. Peace.

soix, thank you for the evenhanded response.

The problem with comparisons to other gear as the basis for a review is twofold.

First, to take that approach assumes that everyone, or even most, interested in the piece of gear being reviewed has heard all the other competing gear which are “what most would consider to be head on competitors/alternatives”. Big assumption; and as we all know the “opinions” of many are often based on reviews and word of mouth, not actual first hand experience. Not to mention, the sonic effects of the necessarily different rooms, cables, ancillary gear, setup. Moreover, consider how much disagreement there already exists among audiophiles about the pros and cons of a lot of even top gear.

Secondly, most audiophiles have heard (hopefully often) the sound of music in a live setting. A review that relates what the reviewer hears to the sound of live music, subjectivity and all, seems to me will be much more effective in conveying a sense of what the reviewer hears. Some might consider this approach invalid because of issues around subjectivity, but ask why this same concern should not apply to our perception of the “sound” of gear.

If you have not heard Purifi super tweaked, GaN super tweaked, etc.....you have not heard what class D can do.  Have you heard AGD?  Have you heard the new Merrill MX amp just shown at a show?  Have you heard the Atmasphere monos?  Have you heard VTV with latest Purifi and discrete buffer on input?  Have you heard the Ultra stereo from Orchard?  Or the now gone big Cherrys?....or the Apollon amps?  Have you?  What is possible RIGHT NOW is not what was a few years ago.  It would be good to mention what class D you heard and when you heard it for reference.  Class D is changing all the time and getting better and better.  We shall see if Mytek can finally bring out their GaN based amps soon.....they said recently the mono blocks would start shipping in sept......of course, they were suppose to ship last summer.  Their modded Pascal based amps are pretty darn good so these new much more expensive GaN based amps have to be much better......or they won't sell.  I wish you a happy class d day.

there is no top sparkle, midrange has never had lively crunch as A or AB no matter how many times you sell your selves they are so awesome, better than class A or AB,                ................Nobody says it's better than A- A/B...

Really? We've been making class A amplifiers for 49 years. While I am certainly not talking about all class D amplifiers, we feel that our class D amps sound better than our class A amps in that they are just as smooth in the mids and highs but exhibit greater detail in the rear of the soundstage (owing to lower distortion). FWIW our class A amps (which are triode OTLs) have been getting nice reviews and awards in the high end press for decades now.

@lloydc Have you heard any of the newer GaN- or Purify-based amps?  They’re not your father’s Class D anymore. 

If any Class D amp is “good enough” for you, you’re lucky.  Not being able to hear the differences will save you lots of money.  Unless you buy an Aavik.