CD transports; do they really matter

And now I see that Terry London has written about this error of judgement in his review, but doesn't quite get to mentioning internal PS.  

I'm currently trying to digest his word block, deliberately designed to make my three neurons fight with each other.  And I'm not even dyslexic.

Yes the cd transport matter. If it is made proper it does not matter if it is a top loaded transport or not. Some of what i have had in My own system:

Oppo, Cambridge, Lyngdorf, Playstation, C.E.C TL5, Simaudio Moon Neo 260D,Jays Audio mk2, Denafrips Avatar, TASCAM CD-9010

Have had a trusted friend test the Pro-Ject rs2 t against the TASCAM CD-9010 Used as a transport only.

Now i have the TASCAM.

In My opinion you get a ok value for your money from the newest transport from Jays and Pro-Ject is better. Compared to what has been made the last 10 years of cd transports you get more than you Pay for with Theese 2 transports

The Discontinued Avatar transport from Denafrips was a good transport but service was.......

Just my opinion. 

Regards

@noske

 At this price point I’m quite disappointed that Pro-Ject does not include an internal linear power supply

With all due respect I believe that you are missing the value/performance ratio of the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2T. At this juncture there are only a few manufacturers who have adopted the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 and Blue Tiger servo-84 unit.

Aqua Hifi La Diva II (9,000.00),  Accustic Arts Drive II (18,000.00) and the Gryphon ETHOS CD player (39,000.00).  These companies felt the CD Pro-8 was the best choice for their flagship CD transports/players.

Pro-Ject ofers the consumer this latest drive technology at roughly 3,000.00. This is very much worth acknowledging. Yes it is physically scaled down compared to the more expensive alternatives. It comes with a wall wart power supply whereas the more expensive alternatives have LPS as standard.

So Pro-Ject is providing a reasonable cost entry point to obtain the latest Stream Unlimited  CD drive mechanism technology.  I do not mind the smaller form factor at all. As Terry London noted in his review,  even with the supplied SMPS wall wart it still outperformed his Jay'sAudio CDT2 MK II, MBL CD transport, CEC, Accustic Arts transport (Not the current Drive II)and  so on.

I can understand his conclusions as the wall wart powered Pro-Ject outperformed my P.S.Audio PWT with has a LPS. So it seems to me that the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 and servo unit are likely the dominant factor as to why it sounds so terrific.  Pro-Ject went with a wall wart power supply to lower the price entry point. They do offer a LPS upgrade option.

@bigkidz who is a manufacturer of custom high end audio components and said the diminutive Pro-Ject outperformed his highly regarded Metronome CD player and his CEC. Again accomplished with the wall wart power supply.  So in my opinion the Pro-Ject RS2 transport offers superb  sound quality at its asking price. 

The cherry on top is one can further extend the sound quality if they decide at some point to add  a LPS. This is a splendid scenario as far as I am concerned.

Charles 

From the review by Mr London -

An audiophile who will spend $3,000 on a dedicated CD transport would be very motivated to spend a bit more to get the maximum performance out of the Box RS2 transport.

.....I contacted Mark Schneider, owner of one of my favorite companies, Linear Tube Audio,......They also make very high-quality linear power supplies that can be customized for other companies’ gear. I had Mark take their LPS+ linear power supply and change it from a 12V/3Amp to a 20V/3Amp to match the Box RS2 transport input level, along with building a DC umbilical cable. Total cost, $645.

This for a custom made external LPS. In my experience custom made are much more expensive (and not just in $ terms - yours and my time to research and talk and research, perhaps travel, etc. It adds up) than a supplied component due to one off tooling costs and so on.

And after all that, it is still external. I maintain that it is false economy to not include an internal LPS. Like saving pennies on an heirloom.

Still, well within comfort boundaries compared with the prices of other technologically comparable units - those prices are so far away as to make any comparison like apples to oranges.

The Pro-Ject engineers would design one that is optimal for the transport. I would suggest that this would be "better" than a generic one that is designed to fit around the product rather than specifically for it.

So, we agree -

The cherry on top is one can further extend the sound quality if they decide at some point to add a LPS. This is a splendid scenario as far as I am concerned.

@noske 

Well for me the number 1 objective of an audio component is "how does it sound?". So that's the first thing to address and get right. Pro-Ject specifically wanted a small footprint  package (Their "Box" concept).  Adding an internal LPS they reasoned is inevitably going to increase the  physical package (Which they are seeking to avoid).

So they went the route of external LPS for those who desire this option. Keep in mind as I and other owners and listeners have pointed out,  sound quality with the wall wart is excellent. So the LPS is not mandatory for excellent sound quality.

A number of users have acquired Pro-Ject's own LPS or the LTA (Linear Tube Audio) LPS with excellent results. I opted for the Fidelizer Nikola II LPS and the pairing is divine. 

So owners have used different brands of power supplies with terrific results. This flexibility is an additional asset. I listed the expensive transports as a reference point if they want the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 unit. These types  of high quality CD drive mechanisms are the heart and soul of a transport.

There is currently no other CD transport anywhere near the cost of the RS2T that utilizes this latest technology CD drive unit. That's a very key point. Look, I understand no matter how good I or someone else  believes a component is, it is not going to please or be for everyone.

Maybe the Pro-Ject simply  is not what you're looking for, easily understood. There is a wide market for other transport choices.  I feel that based on my actual listening experiences and direct interactions it is a marvelous sounding CD transport. YMMV as is always the case with audio related matters. 

Charles 

CEC TL5 Belt driven top loader with Denefrips Ares 2 DAC...Wonderful. Turntables isolate motor noise by using a belt drive. CEC gets it!

Charles;

Have sent PM

@charles1dad ...again, I have not checked but it seems to me the CD3 was a player in toto and not just a transport.

@stuartk 

👍

Charles,

How wide is the Jays transport?

How much clearance does it require?

Looks like its built like a tank.

M

@mdrone 

I don't own the Jay's Audio CDT2 MK II/III. I'm sure the component dimensions are available on their website. 

Charles 

@acresverde 

I took the time last night to post picture and info regarding the CDT3 which is a transport.  It was their flagship CD transport as recent as 2019. They may have creased production as this unit relied on the Phillips CD PRO-2 drive mechanism. Which is distinguished from their CDT2 which uses the Phillips CDM4 drive mechanism. 

Charles 

@charles1dad ...yeah, I saw the pix after my earlier post. It seems I haven't really kept fully up to date with the changing Jay's lineup in the last couple years. Sorry for the confusion.

@acresverde 

No problem 👍

Charles

I'd rather stand before my stacks as if in a library to decide what I'm going to listen to next than screw around with an I-pad.

Putting two components into a shared chassis is always a compromise. A dac introduces noise to the transport section. It’s better to keep them seperate. Usually a transport will have a better mechanism and read capability, as that is where the money is spent, absent the dac. Cyrus makes a nice transport in the CD-T for $1200. Add in a nice Border Patrol r2r dac. 

I had the Luxman CD-06 : the driver was very good ,but the Dac within was à nightmare. : sound was flat, no dynamic … now I bought the Audio Note CDT two/2 with the Metronome Technologie C6: : the sound is great ! Very 3D , open , detailfull : I love it now. The Moon Mind 2 streamer is also connected on de Metronome : great !!

@charles1dad Pro-Ject specifically wanted a small footprint package (Their "Box" concept). Adding an internal LPS they reasoned is inevitably going to increase the physical package (Which they are seeking to avoid).

OK, thankyou, I didn’t know that.

This makes everything I’ve said irrelevant. Too late to delete everything now.

Also, I agree with the logic that people who buy the Pro-Ject will possibly be of such a disposition to wish to personalise it according to their own perhaps unconventional preferences.

You have described this for people like me who are a bit slow to hear the penny drop. I would like that choice too, having thought about it for a nano-second - my thought process often goes on tangents rather than a straight line. It is aspects like the ability to customise which make the journey enjoyable and maybe cerebral.

Charles 1 dad, which esoteric transport did you own?

@noske

No problem.. If you go to the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2T website description page they lay out their product design and objectives.

@havocman

I had the Esoteric P700 which may have been the first generation of the VRDS disc clamp-drive unit. I purchased it in the mid-late 1990s. It still functions fine today! I have used it in various 2nd systems. When acquired it was considered one of the better CD transports for reasonable cost. I have heard numerous later generation Esoteric transports but have not owned them.

Charles

Charles 1dad, the esoteric p700 was not that good, that was their cheapened out version of the esoteric P10 which is what I have, that thing was so well built they were even using OCC single crystal wire for the internal wire back in 1990 when it came out, they were so far ahead of everybody even back then, but they're transports now are way crazy priced, the P10 was only $2,500 Canadian back then and the p1 was $4,000, now they're transports are like 10 $20,000 that's ridiculous.

@havocman

The P700 may not have been Esoteric’s very best effort but during that era it served me well and was better than most in that particular price range at that time. I’ve heard their more recent models at a not too distance dealer.

Charles

IME, it is important, but less than DAC.

if DAC = 100% then transport is 30-40%.

Similar to upgrade the digital I/C's from transport to DAC vs analog I/C's from DAC to amp.

Given the requirements of the DAC and CD transport and their impact on sound quality when either is suitably upgraded my perspective of their respective contribution is 50-50 Maybe 55-45 in favor of the transport.  The delivery of the digital signal from the sorce is paramount.  So this obviously varies from one individual's viewpoint compared to another. 

Charles 

From my personal experience. I had been using Arcam 192 CD player, not too shabby in its days, as a transport with Denafrips Ares II, it was big improvement over Arcam inside DAC. Then I bought Cambridge CXC transport and the improvement was really significant. Here I said it. 

There is no longer a compelling reason to buy a CD player unless you love playing with physical things.

Er, yeah, whatever... Are companies still manufacturing CD players & transports...you know the answer. Do many audiophiles have large CD collections...you know the answer to that too.

@knock1 

Yep, not at all surprised by your results. If you were to substitute the nice Cambridge CXC  for the Jay's Audio CDT2 MK III or Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 transport you'd   hear quite further sound quality improvement  with that same DAC.

Charles 

I agree with you charles1dad at least 55-45 Between a Source and DAC. Synergi is important and when you hear how important the Source isit is a eye opener. At least to me😆

The answer is YES!

If you have opened up a CDP or a DVD-Rom drive and look at how the disc spins, you'll noticed there's a lot of wobbling.  This creates a lot of reading errors and need to be corrected.  The error correction for the CD is often "acceptable"  and not true original data.  In the peak of Rom drives era, there are many websites doing tests and looking at errors and correctable errors via scope, how well each brand and model does.  The least read errors with best correction algorithm wins.

The same goes for cd/SACD players.  Many brands have their own way of having a very high quality read from the disc to start, eg. using glass lens on the laser pickup, having 3 laser to track and averaging out the errors, using a bigger heavier clamp, reducing spin speed, adding light noise to the red laser, using green laser as pickup, etc etc.  All these are to aim at minimising read errors so less correction is needed.

After the read, next up is the data processing before sending to digital out.  This part makes another difference in sound quality.

I've not heard the Project or Jay's.  What I can sum up from my experience is:  Basic entry good quality transport is the Audiolab 6000CDT, next upgrade would be the Cyrus XT signature transport, higher end goes to YBA transport with a blue laser, and the ultimate transport goes to Esoteric with their VRDS mechanism.  The first 3 only do red-book CD.

There are many other players and transports I heard like the CEC, Marantz, Pioneer, Oppo 205, Cambridge Audio, Mark Levinson, Roksan, but my vote goes to those 4 only.

Have fun shopping for a new transport.  Let us know what you finally decide to go  with.

They absolutely make a difference!

I have tried four options and can hear the difference between all four when used as a transport feeding my Bel Canto E1x integrated amp/dac -

Bel Canto CD-3T CD transport (best sounding)

Marantz SA-K1 Ruby SACD player (next best)

Oppo BDP 103 BluRay player

Yamaha CD-S1000 SACD player

@mdrone 

You initiated this thread with a sincere question and naturally you can expect a range of different replies/opinions. However I feel that although well meaning, people posting saying transports do not much matter are really doing a disservice to the inquiring OP. I can't think of a single example where a cheap CD Rom based unit sounds anywhere near as good as a well engineered, high quality and well implemented CD transport. 

If someone can cite an actual example I'd love to know what it is.

Charles

I would have to agree that all transports are not created equal. Take in consideration that a CD spins at nearly 500 rpms at the center of the disc and decreases to appx 200 rpms at the circumference producing a constant linear velocisty. No easy feat. In addition very high EMI/FRI and Jitter build up at the Digital output and input jacks. Some use Ferrite Chokes to remedy this. The better players treat their digital outputs as a forethought rater an afterthought. Some Engineer (Naim) hand wire their digital out circuitry as closely as possible to the output Jack’s. Cut down on any long internal circuitry runs to reduce jitter/noise.

Niam uses a CD magnetic puck to hold the disc in place and hand wires their output circuitry very closely to the digital in/output conditions.

N

I always tried to separate components in order to free to improve step by step my beloved music system. The DAC is becoming as much as important as the Preamp: let's say that DAC is a sort of Digital Preamp: I have an Esoteric D03 with 2 different digital sources: CD (Esoteric P03) and Streamer / Internet Radio Auralic Aries 2.1.

I'm thinking to connect my PC and watch stream video files (HD monitor) and pass the digital signal to the DAC then to my preamp. How many input an integrated CD/DAC machine could have?

In my opinion it is matter of flexibility other than quality etc.

I distribute CEC.

Jitter is going to be the lowest with a belt drive transport. The noise level will be lower with a belt drive because the motor is farther away from the noise sensitive laser head. Suspension system of the transport, you usually can not see the suspension system if there is one, are important to keep the noise down. It turns out CD playback is sensitive to vibrations. The lower the vibration sensitivity of laser head / disk turntable, the lower the noise in the data stream to a DAC.

Turns out the basic design of the transport makes a difference to the playback of a CD. Belt drives will always outperform a direct drive transport in my opinion as an engineer.

Cannot believe a rep would say that about his own products.

Why not? He was completely upfront about it and contributed to the conversation in a helpful way, offering another way of seeing things, making some good points for consideration. 

All the best,
Nonoise

In my experience, a CD transport over a CD player is the way to go.  I began using my CD player as a transport when I bought a new DAC as it was sonically better than the CD player's internal DAC.  After a period of time, I took a chance and replaced the CD player as a transport with a used 47-Labs Flat-Fish transport and again, heard a noticeable sonic improvement.  Recently, I upgraded to a new CD transport (Jay's-Audio CDT-2 Mk 2), it was obvious that this new transport was sonically better than the 47-Labs transport.  Plus it has several types of outputs rather than just SPDIF.  I'm using the HDMI I2s output from the Jay's-Audio.  The older 47-Labs Flat-Fish is still a good transport, but the Jay's-Audio transport has proven to be more sonically satisfying to me.  If your CD player's transport/circuitry is of really high quality, you may not experience the need for a separate CD transport, however with the number of really high-quality DAC's out there, as well as reasonably priced high-quality CD transports available, you may want to do a comparison for yourself.  I personally don't know of a CD player that matches the sonic quality of a great CD transport and DAC combination.  This is also because I like to spin discs and don't necessarily want to load it into my music-server.  

Confirmation bias is rampant here! If anybody remembers way back Theta sold a transport that was actually a DVD player (intact including front fascia and buttons) inside a metal case for thousands of $$$! The reviewers at TAS loved it - along with other audiophools! Nothing like a fancy case and a high price tag to attract the gullible! It is easier to con someone than to convince someone that they have been conned!

@jasonbourne52

Confirmation bias is rampant here

Yep, here we go again, the tired and lame retort of confirmation bias. When someone is unable to put forth a cogent argument, there’s the good ole fallback position. This shows no respect or acknowledgement of what multiple listeners have heard and experienced . That requires too much thought and contemplation.

It’s much simpler and lazy to just discount what others take the time to post here and report. If it does not fit your belief system and preconceived notions, No problem as it’s merely confirmation bias. A fair number of people have posted their respective results when moving on to or comparison with a better quality CD transport (Same can be said for better music server/streamer). Nope, doesn’t matter as they are all just fooling themselves and delusional. Oh, and of course  the obligatory  " They are foolishly wasting their money ".

Yet for some inexplicable reason the person advocating "There is little to no difference amongst the components " is to be accepted and believed without any push back or question? Really, how So? One aspect that’s rarely acknowledged by those trumpeting confirmation bias is that it can be applied in both directions.

One can be so entrenched in their own beliefs and perspective that they are incapable of accepting any outcome that differs from their predetermined rigid expectations.

Charles

@cdc

I haven’t heard the Pro-Ject CD Box DS2T but based on reviews and word of mouth it is quite good. The RS2T is over 3x the cost of the DS2T. For this additional money you get the latest top CD loading tech, Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8/Blue Tiger servo is integrated as a complete unit. Also much attention and engineering was applied toward vibration and resonance management. I strongly suspect that you’d be very pleased with the DS2T if you decide not to go with the RS2T.

Charles

If anybody remembers way back Theta sold a transport that was actually a DVD player 

yes, but did you actually ascertain if it was a good sounding transport, as that was its function.?

I have used a Genesis Digital Lens since it came out (with a Pioneer PD-65 as transport), which eliminated jitter. Always assumed it more or less solved transport issues.  Would a modern transport, eg the Project, really improve things?

i have Chord DAC which supposedly does the same. Unfortunately I can hear the difference between an average CD player digital out and a good transport, or even a CXC vs a Wadia

Everything matters. 
 

I just upgraded my Marantz SACD 30n with the McIntosh MCT500 transport two days ago . I like my decision so far. 

I am relatively new to using a CD as a source for a replay in my system.

I have built a very satisfying Analogue LP Source system over 30 Years and do not feel there is much I can change to make a major improvement, but I a do know I can change the presentation if wanted as the overall system is very adept at resolving detail.

About Six Yeas ago, I decided to try out CD in the System for the first time.

I used a Cambridge Brand CDP that was used in my Son's Bedroom Separates System.

There was something about the convenience I liked and the idea of not needing to be vigilant, not like when using a LP and Cartridge.

The idea that when a CD was being played, my Stylus was not subjected to usage wear was also attractive.

The CDP used was not able to endear myself, and the overall was unattractive to be thought of as a main source, more of a background music replay.

Wind the Clock Forward, a friend had been modifying Sony CDP's to be working as a Valve CDP.  I had supplied ears on a few occasions to assess the work being carried out on the different models to varying specifications and cost values of exchanged components.

A loan of a CDP was offered and when used, I got it immediately, the CD Source was quite attractive and I had no concerns about using it, I also purchased a large quantity of CD's as the outcome.

Wind the Clock Forward, an offer of a Bespoke Built Valve DAC was made to me to purchase. This DAC was produced by the person who had mentored my friend through the CDP Modifications.

I accepted and made the purchase, that was delivered to my friends home to be picked up.

Modified CDP's vs Bespoke Built DAC>Cheapo CDP's was carried out for a few hours and the DAC Combo was performing in a very attractive manner.

I was a very happy customer.

The DAC was in my mind, deserved of a CD Input that was to allow it to really show itself off, and after a period time the DAC was taken to an event where Vinyl Replay was the main presentation, and at the end of the day a demonstration was given of the DAC coupled to a the PS Audio PWT.      

I and a few others in attendance were blown away, by the demonstration, especially when the day had been demonstrating TT Set Up's approaching           £8 000 - £20 000, replayed on a system with a value of approx' £150 000.

Today I own the PS Audio PWT > Bespoke Built DAC, it has been Tube Rolled and there is a New Level of Performance as the result, and I  have a Trialled COAX Interconnects to a variety of values and do believe I have this interface as good as it can be.

With this additional investigations and work carried out on the DAC, I was feeling there was not much need to look further to raise the performance level further.

The information being shared in this thread, suggests there are most likely experiences for myself to be encountered, that are worthwhile pursuing and  attempting to arrange to receive a demonstration of a different model of CDT.

Very Fortunately there are a range of Jay's CDT's at a Dealership quite close to my home. 

Is there a synergy between the DAC and PWT that will be hard to surpass?

Is there a CDT that will make the PWT appear to be a less attractive option?  

nobody here has a DAC/PWT synergy or CDT/PWT interaction databse that they can immediately refer to and spit out an answer. These are issues that you can only resolve for yourself by listening. Even if somebody were to give you an answer, how are you sure that their taste is going to be the same as yours? It’s a bit like asking someone to tell you what pair of speakers to buy. And people do that too..

Cannot believe a rep would say that about his own products.

at least he had the decency to identify himself as such.

too much “silent running“ going on

I do fully understand the reply.

There are ex PWT owners who I believe at one point of ownership were content with this choice.

I also know there are members within this forum, of which some will have experienced this and have exchanged the PWT for a Different Model/Brand of CDT or even possibly did not continue with a CDT and took on another digital source.

I was hoping to be offered a few thoughts from a member or two,  on what was the new experience and noticeable difference that they encountered, to help them make the decision to exchange the device.

@pindac

 I was hoping to be offered a few thoughts from a member or two,  on what was the new experience and noticeable difference that they encountered, to help them make the decision to exchange the device.

Hi

I share your admiration for the P.S.Audio Memory PWT.  It is in my opinion an exceptionally good CD transport and furthermore very reliable. I owned this transport purchased new and kept it for 12 very enjoyable years. It has stood the test of very well and still one of the better quality choices available today.

The existence of the Pro-Ject CD Box CD Box RS2T transport  caught my attention as It had received high praise from former PWT and Jay's Audio CDT2 MK  II owners. The Jay's Audio CDT2 owners familiar with the PWT preferred the Jay's. 

I can say without hesitation that as good as my PWT is, the Pro-Ject RS2 transport is better across the board.  Simultaneously more resolved, dynamic more of an organic and fluid presentation. It did this with the supplied SMPS wall wart.  It is truly an excellent CD transport that elevated to stunningly good/superb when I replaced the wall wart with a LPS.

Obviously you'd have to listen and judge for yourself.  Based on anecdotal and unscientific feedback from owners the ranking appears to be 

Pro-Ject CD Box RS2T 

Jay's Audio CDT2 MK II/III

P.S.Audio PWT (Previous generation) I haven't seen comparisons with the current SACD/CD transport. 

Charles