I am in the cross road for the media choice. My CD player suffered from abnormal tray movement and consider to replace a new one (maybe the 2nd hand one). But on last Sunday, I paid a visit to the audio show and find out there are showing many streaming player of the famous brands with the price range of US$ 5000~20,000. I feel the sound is not bad with short listening.
I am thinking about my situation once more, if I buy a HI-Fi CD player, the price might equal to the audio streamer. Then, if I choose the CD player, I would keep on buying CD. But if I give up CD player and replace it with a audio streamer, my expense might be the monthly subscription expense which cost a CD or so. Besides, my kids have no interest in classical music appreciation. There is no meaning for me to keep on buying CD. When I am passed away, the CD are useless...without not penny.
Under such kind of consideration, should I stay in CD player or should I switch to music streamer. Any good opinion?
You have not heard how good a streamer can sound vs your CD player or turntable as most high end dacs take USB and the Blue Sound Node can only output Coax or Toslink. This is a serious compromise with the Node.
The other issue is that most high end dacs will generate less jitter when run asyncronoously which is impossible when you are running spdif or aes/ebu, clocking is dramatically improved when the dac is controlling the incomming data
The other point is that a high end server will allow you to expereience high resolution files either high sampled rate PCM or DSD files most people will prefer the greater ambience and larger soundstage of upsampled data.
You are correct that Blue Sound does offer a ton of great streaming sources more than most, othe than the other big players Sonos and Deno Heos which do seem to offer similar sources.
A Roon server the Innous servers sound fantastic and can play Tidal, Obouz, and can play streaming intenet local and international stations and that includes Radio Paradise.
The higher end models allows for upconversion and upsampling depending on your dac.
A Zen Mini starts at $1,200.00 and thehgiher end models go up from there.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Innous and Blue Sound dealers
do you have a dealer where you can demo some units at home? My experience suggests that there are very large gains in going upstream from the Node 2. Indeed, I think the streamer might be more important than the DAC. I’m getting pretty remarkable results from an Aries G2 streamer and from an Aurender N100. They’re much better than the Node 2 I still have.
audiotroy Are you indicating that running an SPDIF from an Esoteric P-05X to a COS Engineering D2 DAC is inferior sounding due to jitter problems? I thought this was a rather high end quality musical sound despite not being SOTA. I am using a near SOTA balanced cable. I thoroughly dislike HDMI for audio and am not too keen on USB. I like lots of connectivity with low resistance in a cable. Should I dump my digital system and get a cheap streamer DAC instead to play my CDs through another transport and USB only cable or some other cable you prefer?
I went to one of my favorite dealers yesterday (Gig Harbor Audio) and they just happened to have a Lumin T2 set up in their main demo system. It sounded fantastic. I'd probably go for the D2. I have some other priorities ahead of that, but a new streamer may be in my future.
I think of streamers in the same light as Class D amplifiers. IMO they are a developing technology and the $thousands you spend today will be worth a fraction of that in the near future. JMHO
@jetter That is one reason why I've held back on spending more than I have on streaming. Not all that long ago I bought a Marantz
NA6005 as my first streaming device. Sonically and functionally, it was a nice piece, but it doesn't support most of the newer streaming services and its app is pretty bad. The cheaper BlueSound Node 2 is a much better device in every way. I consider myself lucky to have gotten rid of the Marantz when I did, it's a boat anchor now.
Ideally, I'd like to get a decent streamer with a good app interface that can be updated as new services become available with no DAC included.
big_greg, I just purchased a Bluesound node 2i last month and have to confess I am having a blast with all the available music. I live in a fairly rural area in Vermont so there are just a few broadcasting radio stations. I haven't experimented with high rez paid subscriptions yet, but have it on one of the 60s & 70s stations (after a week listening to Music Paradise) and it plays all day, I love music selections on this particular station. Whatever resolution my system is the Node 2i seems to fit right in. I have a modded Musetex Meitner DAC I may hook up in a while. One thing, which may be my imagination, but I found the bass a little leaner through the Node 2i and turning up my two SVS subs a touch took care of that. I did just order a Pangea C7 power cord yesterday and am looking forward to any positive change that may bring.
That's the great thing about streaming, it dramatically expands access to music. I tried the Pangea power cord and didn't hear a noticeable difference. YMMV
Big Greg the reasons you mentioned are one reason we recommend the Lumin products so highly.
They are designed to last a long time with a product lifecycle of 5-7 years
The firmware is constantly being upgraded as improvements to the devices are implemented.
The Lumin products sound fantaastic and in each price catagory are among the best sounding devices in their price range.
The Lumin products include Spotify, Tidal, Obouze,Internet Radio and Apple Airplay, designated Roon endpoint, and MQA built in.
The Airplay function is fantastic most people use an Ipad to control their Lumin this gives you the ability to stream Youtube as well as Soundcloud or any other Airplay compatible streaming app.
I bought a Shandling CD player from a fellow A-Goner a few years back and couldn't be happier. I am using Telefunken tubes in the output , replacing the stock tubes.
LUMIN U1 Mini with a T+A DAC 8 is what I have. Sounds wonderful and I do not miss my CDP. Also you can stream with the LUMIN and it supports a multitude of services. Its future proof.
@audiotroy i recently tried an Innuos Statement in my system and I found that the same track ripped from cd by the Innous significantly outperformed the same track streamed via the Innuos (via Roon/Tidal cd-quality). Did you not find the same? (I was not able to compare to the cd playing direct)
i would think this is the greatest reason for the OP to go for this kind of solution.... get extra value from his CD collection while reaping rewards of streaming.
I enjoy CDs myself but I like to put my music on my computer using JRiver. I also store much of my music in FLAC format onto usb thumb drives. I can put hundreds of albums on a single drive and play them back in the car and I can plug them into my Oppo player and play them back with the artwork and song titles displayed on the big screen. It's very easy to skip back and forth in seconds instead of having to get up and change a disc. Plus the sound is great.
Most folks are giving up on CD players. But here is the deal - CD players will always sound better than streaming for same or less price. What is important are to get upgraded feets, with high end power cable and burn the music to blank gold MSFL CDs. Those 3 steps are the secret sauce for superior CD transports- I compared Innous with the new MSB descrete ($13k) vs my Hegel with the 3 step upgrade ($6.5k + gold discs). The streaming option had wider soundstage but the CD hands down had more accurate sound and timing.
While I don’t have experience with Innuos server/streamers, I do with
Aurender and Auralic as I own units from both companies and have been
able to do A/B comparisons against the Node 2. No contest.
@mgrif104Did you use the same DAC when comparing the Aurender, Auralic, and Node 2? If so, which DAC did you use for the test and can you let me know what was better about the Aurender and Auralic? What models of the Aurender and Auralic
do you have? Thanks!
Ketchup are you incredulous that an Auralic or Aurender server is besting the Node?
In our tests the better the data stream the better the sound to the dac.
We have tested the original Auralic Aries vs the Aurender and the Aurender was far better
We feel that the Innous are a fantastic choice due to their implimentation of Roon, great sound quality, continuous firmware upgrades, and near total reliablity and ease of use.
Many people who compare these servers are shocked just how much better sound out of a digital data stream can be created when you minimize jitter and timing related distortions from the data stream.
Ketchup are you incredulous that an Auralic or Aurender server is besting the Node?
LOL, no. Why would you think that? I simply had a few specific questions for mgrif104 that myself and others would probably like to have the answers to. This place has really gone downhill.
I did the comparisons in my system(s) using the same DAC - in my case, the DACs built into the NAD M12 DAC/preamp and in a PS Audio Stellar pre/DAC (a killer unit for the price). So, I’d say mid level DACs as the comparison (not great, but not budget). I haven’t tried it with a high end DAC but I have some anecdotal evidence (based on auditioning several other mid level DACs that the streamer and/or server is the more critical component than the DAC. My suspicion is that a high end streamer/server with a mid level DAC will outperform a high end DAC w/ a mid level streamer/server. I can’t support that theory as I haven’t done direct comparisons, but I heard greater differences in streamers than in DACs.
The differences I noticed between streamers were also supported by my local dealer. I took my Aurender to their store (they’re not a dealer) and we directly compared it to the Lumin U1 mini and the Node 2i (for which they are a dealer).. All were run into the same DAC (Marantz’ top of the line reference SACD/DAC). While tonally, all were the same, the Node 2 (and to a lessor extent, the Lumin mini) sounded “flat” or 2 dimensional in comparison while the Aurender offered more spatial information. It just sounded more open. This was confirmed by the dealer. I also compared my Aurender N100H (admittedly, their low end) to my new Auralic Aries G2 (about 2x the price) and noted it offered a similar increase in performance over the Aurender. Again, same tonality, but more open spatially, and better revealing of details. Hope this helps.
Audiotroy - a quick note - offered with charitable intent. I’m a fan - I appreciate your contributions and knowledge and believe you operate an honest business. Have you noticed that many of the threads you contribute to also lead to you taking an argumentative or defensive position of some sort? Perhaps you should check your inpulses before responding. Not everyone is challenging you. It’s my belief that other participants in these forums are unlikely to change their mind when on the receiving end of a lengthy and/or argumentative post. Please continue to post to these forums. But, please also appreciate that others who have a different view should be allowed to state as much freely without getting into an argument. Again - this is offered as constructive criticism. We absolutely need good dealers who have knowledge to share. However, more will be receptive to your offerings if is comes from a friendly place.
Ketchup please don't take this the wrong way we were not attacking you, the point was being made that so many people here belive that bits are bits with digital and there is no way that a server can make a difference. If we came accross harsh please accept the appology.
Mgrif, we don't have a Lumin U1 so we can't verify your findings, we do have the D2 and T2 which can function as a server, also there are a lot of settings on the U1 which include upsampling and cross conversion which in some cases can make the Lumin and dac combo really perform.
We almost never run straight 16/44k on the Lumin instead we run it at high data rate PCM or DSD and wow the Lumin products go way up in sound quality.
Also were you running USB on the Aurnder vs coax on the other two?
We have only tired the older Aries which was okay, our current favorite is the Innous which we feel are even more magical than the Aurender, however, the Aurender which we used to sell are also outstanding.
One of the strongest advantages of the Lumin U1 and Innous servers is the ability to upconvert or cross convert to DSD and again with a dac that can handle those signals the digital sounds way more analog like.
Joshfin, yes the storred CD's do sound even better, however there are a few tricks you can use to up the sound quality on the Statement, please PM so we can go over this with you.
Faust168 - I have been running a LUMIN D 1 for 5 years (this is a streamer and DAC in one box). My source is Tidal HiFi with MQA. Cost is $25 per month. The LUMIN has to be hardwired via Ethernet to preform. I am very happy with the sound quality. LUMIN sends me routine updates over the internet to keep me current. The DAC in the unit is a Wolfson. Some think the Saber DAC is better ( I would have to go with a LUMIN T2 to get the Saber DAC). The current model - D2 runs $2,200 and the T2 at $5000. My quality is so good I retired my turntable. I do have a Yamaha CD player - CD - S2100 - I consider the sound quality from both sources equal. 90% of my Listening now is thru the LUMIN.
One of the servers by Fidata using hi res downloads and ripped cd’s would be a good choice imo. You could add a good, reasonably priced streamer at some point like a Lumin U1 Mini for example.
Thank you very much for your kind response to the subject. I visit one dealer to hear the rip hi-resolution file which streamer is a mid to high end model of the Aurrender. The Pre is Burmeister and the power is Classe mono+ mono and the speaker is Spendor 100. Just a short listening, the music (piano) sound reproduction is bold and solid, but I feel it short of the expression of the player and the music and the overtone. That means it is a bit hard tone. The Boss of the shop who is a veteran audiophile tells me that the best sound is LP, then, CD. The streaming is still lag behind.
I love my cds, cassettes, and albums. Growing up use to listen to king biscuit, superstars in concert, etc, and record live shows. Those days are over. You can't find those shows on streaming services. A good portion of these shows are quite better than the original albums recorded in a studio. I subscribe to a streaming service, but I wouldnt give up the medium listed for the world. Music today, in my eyes is horrible. Different generation. Not My Generation. 500 dancers in unison, vs prerecorded music on stage. I dont care for it. Get your self a Rotel cd player, sit back and rocknroll.
I think you are spot on with your assessment and inherent limitations of the CD situation. Another HUGE benefit of subscribing to a streaming service (I use Qobuz at $15/month that includes their hi-res recordings and am thrilled — best 15 bucks I spend every month) is that you’ll have unlimited access to that huge music library and you’ll discover new worlds of awesome music you might’ve never heard otherwise.
My recommendation would be to buy an Innuos Zen Mklll for $2699 as it’s very high quality and does everything from streamer to DAC to CD drive for easy ripping and storage to good software interface. All you need to do is connect it to your internet and switch the interconnects from your CD player to the Zen and you’re in business (of course you need to subscribe to a streaming service, and most offer a free trial period so you can compare). Read Darko’s reviews as he describes the sound and also explains a lot about streaming that you may find interesting and informative as you’re getting started. Best of luck.
I would go with a streamer. Probably rip the cd's you like that you can't find on the streaming service you use. Many streamers can handle a SD card or an external drive with music files.
You can go for a streamer with built-in dac or buy dac separately. The latter gives you more choices.
I am currently using a Raspberry Pi as a streamer connected to my dac but may upgrade later.
Project Streambox has not been mentioned much but looks like a good option.
There is no streaming crap that comes close to SACD or bluray audio in sound quality. Yes, i listen to both stereo and am also a strong proponent of multi channel/surround music.
However, the DACs in cd/blu-ray players and streamers can very much keep up with stand-alone DACs (due to rapid advancement and falling costs of good quality DA conversion). So, it would make sense for you to get a multipurpose player that plays CDs, HDCDs, SACDs, blu-ray audio, blu-ray movies and has a great DAC.
I’m in the same boat as the OP. I’m currently using an HRT istreamer with my iphone 8 via amazon HD. The istreamer puts cd quality sound, but in direct comparisons to my cd player (Naim CD5i2) the cdp still comes out ahead. Now, I’m currently demoing a buddy’s Mytek Brooklyn Bridge and that thing is amazing. Again, I’m using my iphone 8 and connected via apple camera adapter then usb to usb. I cannot do a direct comparison to cd as my player was out for service but cannot be repaired due to parts availability. Now, I’m trying to decide which avenue to take. However, even though the Mytek sounds awesome, its also very expensive, so I’ll probably look for a new cdp and keep the istreamer for streaming duties, In fact, I’m looking at two SACD players that reportedly do very well at cd playback and I posted a query to see which was better... sony xa5400es, or a mccormack udp-1. All in all, I’m still a CD guy, and I think CD’s will be around for a little while yet. Once you buy a CD, it’s yours forever. I mostly use streaming for discovering new music. If it’s something I really like, I buy it on CD :)
I had ESOTERIC 03Xs and just ordered ESOTERIC 03XD which has better dac,better transport better transformers etc.I have many friends that do streaming which is very easy and convenient and to my ears it does not come close to a great CD player.Some do have very expensive streaming still does not come close in sound to a great CD player however it is very easy to use and does supply a wide range of music.
There is no streaming crap that comes close to SACD
Streaming is like FM radio vs our old phone days,, FM never did compete with the sound of LP.s Neither will stream compete with a good tubed cd player.
I am with those that use streaming to find new music. Once found I purchase the CD. I am not one that listens to music all day. My music system serves as a way to get the most from a listening session when I choose to have one. Getting the most involves using a transport into a DAC of choice.
The CD v streaming sound quality debate is an interesting one. Without direct comparison I can't say I've noticed much difference myself.
Furthermore, at the last show I attended (back in Sep 2019), virtually every exhibitor was using some form of streaming.
In particular the Monopulse active speakers sounded wonderful via streaming from a laptop.
You'd think that it would be easy enough to use a CD player instead of a smartphone, laptop etc if they felt there were any sound quality issues at all. So maybe it's fair to assume that they didn't.
It should be mentioned that some of the gear being demonstrated was at the more expensive end of the market. I guess they too must feel that digital is digital, as long as the bitrate is high enough.
In any case, let's not also forget that some streamers can be used to playback your own discs which have been previously ripped to their hard drive.
Furthermore, at the last show I attended (back in Sep 2019), virtually every exhibitor was using some form of streaming.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ another sign the cd player thing is near dead, Us few remaining old faithful audiophiles must havea hard drive cd player, Streaming will not work for us.. I've spent $$$$ building up my 300-400 classical cd collection, and not about to jump ship for streaming. Sorry the experience is not the same. But in this cv19 world, maybe streaming is all most newbies can afford. Hifi audio will take a hit from this cv19 thingy. I;'ll be adding a 2nd hifi cd player next month. That will give me 2 super high fidelity cdp's.
I wonder why the fuss about streaming vs CDs. Sonically, assuming comparable equipment, the difference is not great. For me it’s a Lifestyle issue. If you are tired of storing thousands of CDs, or changing a disc every hour or so, or if you have a streaming service that fills your needs, go for it. Otoh, I listen primarily to Classical, and sometimes it’s easier to find the music I want by reaching on the shelves than trying to figure out where in my streaming library the music is hidden. And my CDP doesn’t require me to update before I can listen, and it isn’t dependent upon a frequently crashing web site for access
2 bits: dumbfounded by the gobbledy gook techno speak required to approach streaming, nonetheless I journeyed to a high end crazy money dealer near Juneau to listen to a good streamer, and he commenced to fumbling with his streamer/tablet [he was not wearing his mittens] and I had my audio geek epiphany: I am not going into streaming ever. Maybe a very good streamer system can stomp my Naim CDS3/XPS2 which is on the same level musically as was my old toe tapping LP12/Ekos/Archiv/Mana, but I switched to CD for its greater convenience. ANY CD player is FAR easier to run than any LP or streamer system and with CDs so cheap, CDs are way more cost effective.
A top end streamer delivers excellent sound quality, yes it does take more setup knowledge and often more components and hassle to get it to sound its very best compared to a top end CDP, but both have their place in a good system.
I have a reasonable set up with both and both deliver great sound quality and a different service. I also have a reasonable analogue system as well and I enjoy playing music through each deliver system and again all have their place.
Out of the CDP and Streamer which delivers the best sq? To my ears still the CDP, or in my case the PS Audio SACD transport is hard to beat. My streamer system is Innuos Zenith Mk3 with a Phoenix reclocker and with the latest 1.8 version of Roon it is extremely good. But where the streamer leaves the CDP behind is in finding new music, which is often more enjoyable than just playing the old favourites on CD.
If funds are not such an issue then having both is a no brainer. Before anyone comments about how different dacs would make a difference in my preference both my SACD Transport and Streamer play through the same Mola Mola Dac so the Dac is not a factor.
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