That's the beauty of this hobby. There are different flavors for everyone. There are no absolutes in Audio, only preferences.
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Since this was my quote I’d like to disagree with accuracy and realism being the same. This is particularly true when music isn’t being played back at ear bleeding volumes. A great example is the upright bass. If you’ve ever heard a bass in person, it has a particular sound quality even at lower volumes and you can feel a thump in your chest. Most systems I hear that are neutral (for instance Wilson speakers with Spectral electronics) don’t provide this energy at reasonable volumes. Most systems I’ve heard that are very high end (over 200k) lack emotional connection for me. I perform music professionally so I know what real instruments sound like when live. This is similar to why many people prefer tube gear. For vocals, tubes can (but don’t always) add just a little color that to me makes the voice sound more real and less like a recorded and reproduced version of the same thing. |
mayoradamwest ... I’d like to disagree with accuracy and realism being the same ...It's really impossible to have a conversation with someone who applies his own unique definition to common words. |
Mayor.... Cool man I am a Bass player have been playing upright and electric since I was 16...now 59..... Always jas been my bone of contention with high end audio that is so thin and lame...preamps no tone control loudness buttons etc ...there is just no real bass... Thats why I have circled back to my 1980 Advent 1s with a nad pre (loudness button) and Carver M 500t....some room treatment from GIK and the bass is nothi g short of phenomenal....great attack and realism even at low volumes...acoustic bass shines...as well as electric.....weather I listen to Milt...Jaco...Ray Brown....Brian Bromberg..Jeff Berlin...and right down to Geddy Lee who grew up right in my neighborhood actually....well I hope you find what you are looking for.... |
@mayor........Check out my YouTube link... Did this show in '79 in Toronto with Peter Appleyard on vibes...I was 18 at the time.. 2 18 inch woofers with the Traynor head.. With my upright.... https://youtu.be/VPx3qjwyVww |
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@ all who enjoyed the video.... Yes at 18 cameras rolling and Carrie Smith hands you a chart....well as they say.."game on"....Great fun with those guys...and so many stories... the trumpet player...trombone player all from Scotland .....from the Stompermania craze....pre rock and roll... pre Beatlemania.....Jack Bruce played with the trumpet player when Jack was 18 or so...and I could never figure out why I got along so well with Malcolm the trumpet player till finding this out... he met all those cats like Clapton too...they use to listen to Dixie just like Brian Jones of the Stones did too....the rivers run very deep in music I must say..... |
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@allSorry to go off on tangent.... A tribute to my old trumpet player.... http://tartanrocker.blogspot.com/2014/01/clyde-valley-stompers.html?m=1 |
I look at it this way...... I hear on a system an upright bass. If it sounds real and I mean I can hear al the subleties one hears when pressing down a string on a fretboard its resonance it gives....then attack and bottom and actual notes then it is an accurate reproduction. When rhythm and chord are accurate via accurate sound then you have a real reproduction of the bass. Musicality is when the system jams...when it has actual soul in the sound.... Some digital stream systems are completely void of this instruments sound real but it has no "jam" to it... There's the Bass the Guitar..etc...but it sounds like they are playing in seperate rooms.... Its like what some TV setups have in that HandyCam look the images are brilliant but the picture has no soul to it. |
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I look at it this way......Nicely stated. |
I'm ok with a colored sound. Prefer musicality and realism over "accuracy" or "neutrality" In and of themselves these are totally arbitrary terms. The more you dig into it the more certain you will know this. That is why I can just about bet money you will never find these terms in any of my many detailed comments on the way something sounds. These terms simply have no meaning, and I am not big on writing nonsense. Well, that's not quite exactly right now, is it? The no meaning part, I mean. (I write nonsense all the time! Sometimes even on purpose!) The meaning I get from it is the writer is saying, "There are people who like a sound they call accurate or neutral, and I prefer something different." So there you go. |
@elizabeth - You make a very good point. I sometimes wonder when reviewers develop a clear auditory bias if it's their hearing, or if they have been paid. But for an audiophile who is having a cultural, not a technical, exposure to gear, who is to say what neutral really means? I think the solution to this is to always have comparisons ready. |
fwiw I made the original comment to make sure it was understood that I was ok with slightly colored sounds, such as warmth. It’s not like I was referring to some crazy difference. I find the difference between speakers far greater than the difference between amp, which is what the comment was about. |
Ishkabilil wrote: " Are not accuracy and realism much the same? " You would think so, but here is an example of what can happen: "Accuracy" is often evaluated by some relatively convenient metric, such as total harmonic distortion, which may or may not correspond to what sounds like "realism" to the ears. And it just so happens that THD does NOT correlate well with subjective preference in controlled double-blind testing. In other words, the standard yardstick for "accuracy" in amplifiers is arguably measuring the wrong thing! So we end up with measurements which "establish" one amplifier as being more "accurate", when another amplifier which does not measure as well by THAT yardstick may actually sound more "realistic". Ishkabibil again: "I am the easiest person to converse with come on I am a bass player..... " I totally get it. Most of my business is with bass players (I’m a "boo-teek" bass cab manufacturer). For those who don’t understand what Ishkabibil is talking about, what the bass player does is, he pours his energy into making the lead singer and the lead guitarist look really, really good. I read an article in a guitar magazine that said there were 27 guitar players for every bass player. So that’s twenty-seven guys who want to be in the limelight for every bass player who is happy to make them look good in that limelight. To put it another way, if the Three Stooges had been a band, Larry would have been the bass player; he made Moe and Curly look good. Duke |
We could focus on other instruments that often sound weak even on very expensive setups. Timpani is one. Trombone. If you’ve ever had the pleasure of hearing a great trombone player in person, especially an orchestral one, you’ll know there is this presence to the sound that wraps around you. There is a heavy core (fundamental) in the mid bass with overtones that add sparkle. |
@elizabeth exotic wood bits under the equipmentDo you mean like the Yamamoto ebony wood blocks, the myrtle wood blocks from Cardas, or something else? Regarding the discussion of this thread, I find dynamics to be important to my satisfaction with a system, i.e., the ability of the system to transition between the loudest and softest passages, as well as impact, or the ability of the system to create the illusion that the listener can “feel” certain dynamics as they can be perceived in life, such as a kick drum or stand up (or electric) bass. I have found that ability to be mostly a function of amplifier power, speaker efficiency, speaker driver size, and room size.....you need enough power and headroom to more than “adequately” drive the speakers, which themselves must be able to move enough air for the size room they are being asked to fill with music. |
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For someone with a lot of spare time ⏰ and money 💰 💰. It’s the Tile and Crystal Tweak! Here’s what you need. Lots of 4x4 inch ceramic tiles. Lots of Mikro Brilliant Pebbles (small crystals of various types). Lots of audio cones - preferably DH Cones, Small, Medium and Super sizes. If you’re strapped for cash use only DH Cones or if you’re really hurting for cash any cones will suffice. Here’s how it works. You build little ceramic tripod tables with one ceramic tile supported by three cones. Here’s the tricky part: place the ceramic tile tripod wherever there’s a vibrational “node” in the room. A vibrational node can be anywhere unwanted acoustic or mechanical energy is at a peak. 🔝 E. g., top of tube trap, on floor against side wall, on top of speaker cabinet, etc. You can either guess where the peaks are in the room or measure them with a sound pressure level SPL meter. Finally, place one Mikro Brilliant Pebbles on top of the ceramic tile tripod. It’s is practically impossible to run out of places where these little dickens will not improve the sound. For the advanced audiophile: Doubling the number of tiles and cones by constructing a DOUBLE tripod table is even better! 🤗 Start hoarding your Brilliant Pebbles and DH Cones now! As Bob Dylan says at the end of all his songs, good luck to you. |
@Elizabeth Several years ago I read about using pumice stones as footers under my cdp. Though a skeptic, these are readily available and cheap. (Used for pedicures). I picked up some of them and tried it. I could not believe what I was hearing and how much better. as you say, like different tubes which are better. This began my experiments with footers. I learned about DIY roller blocks which took the performance up even further. I also learned that I can change the sound by changing the material which the ball is made from. Wood is best for my system. Metal and stone balls tend to emphasize the high frequencies more than wood. However I can see that if my system were bass heavy, the metal or stone balls would be my preference to add some clarity. Its quite interesting that such small changes can make such a difference. |
@ishkabibil I am a drummer who, like you appreciate a good bass line. I have fought for years to get the bass up to where it sounds right. My room is very large which helped emphasize the lack of bass. I've always heard the tubes do not do bass as well as solid state. IMO, this is not the case. It was only after I got a tube amp that I heard bass with the body that a bass generally has. |
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The notorious Mpingo Disc is made of both Aftrican Blackwood (Mpingo) and Gabon ebony. Confusing, ain’t It? To make it even more confusing there’s something hidden inside the Mpingo disc. You can see the small circular disc of a different wood than the main body hiding what’s inside if you look carefully at a photo of a Mpingo disc. 👀 Gee, I wonder what it could be......😳 Shun Mook’s Diamond Resonators (footers) are also made of African Blackwood and are grounded with a real diamond tip. Otherwise the footers would resonate back into the component. That’s why people oft have different or bad results with these hardwood blocks and blanks. They’re resonators. And they’re directional. Hel-loo! |
Ishka, please audition your favorite contra-base/cello recordings through MG 37is. My take is that their line source drivers produce more realistic long string sound than do most cones. My ears tell me I am hearing nuanced detail I can’t hear from cones. My imagination tells me that linear drivers produce sound waves more like long strings do. My brain tells me that low mass membranes are so fast they can reveal audible vibratory energy pulses that cannot be replicated by cones. I’m thinking that low mass beryllium tweeters probably benefit detail in the high end for the same reason. Please don’t give more weight than due to the E’s comments. I find that a good blast of high THC yerba improves SQ far more than even the most expensive doped rocks, wood shims or exotic conductors. I guess it must be my doped internal wiring that is the key!? |
It’s an unfortunate fact that no audio system--regardless of size & price--can even come close to the power & scope of live music (or live in studio music). So those of use who love audio gear as a means of enjoying music are left with choices re which subset of musical characteristics we prioritize. For example, it’s rather easy to find gear that emphasizes transients, dynamics, deep bass & high treble to give an illusion of realism, accuracy, resolution--all the usual descriptives. But someone else may value gear that emphasizes soundstage, subtle ambient/acoustic cues, roundness of tone/timbre, and natural rendition of space. I’m in the latter camp; my preferences were formed by years of attendance at live music of all kinds, including large-scale symphonic, choral, and operatic works (plus countless rock, jazz, and world music performances). It took years of wasted time & money to find equipment that suited my tastes. In the big 2-channel system, that meant Vandersteen speakers (whose 6dB/octave crossovers trade a bit of dynamic strength for musical coherence and a relaxed quality that appeals to me); and tube amplification, for that 3D rendition of notes that sounds like reality to me. I’m now deep into desktop audio, including high-end headphones--and all the same comments apply. It’s easy to find gear that throws out razor-sharp transients and ear-busting treble. Me being me, I go in the other direction. The point really is: we’re all just selecting & assembling our preferred subset of musical qualities, working with the best that audio equipment can do to imitate music. There's really no right or wrong in these preferences... |
