Cconfused...


Heard a poster who is looking for an amp say...

I'm ok with a colored sound. Prefer musicality and realism over "accuracy" or "neutrality"

?????????
ishkabibil
ishkabibil  and cleeds
mayoradamwest makes perfect sense i know exactly what he is talking about , it makes sense to people on this quest for great sound not people that need a dictionary but i'll do my best to explain : he  doesn't  say exactly what sound he is after only in general lines which shows that he is open minded about sound signatures
 w i t h i n the enjoyable realm .he says what he doesn't like :something that sounds like hd 800's or some digital or solid state amps that sound good only with certain records it's very picky and it's annoying  you are always on the watch with the volume knob for the harsh parts.it's not fun it's for sound engineers like yamaha ns10 studio monitors looking through a microscope is not fun. and music is fun. what he said is actually sad :modern components can sound very bad to most people.
hi end pricey harsh sounding amps exist. headphones are extremely funny :the more you spend on high end headphones the more potential for harsh sound(unless it's something special like audeze or abyss that goes the other way )the other flagships from audio technica,beyer senn,akg compete on "ubber realism" which means spikes above 5k that will kill bats or give you a haircut. so that if you are playing the right track at the store(no hint of harshness on the record) while you compare headphones they will sound artificially more open.he doesn't want cold thin clinical analytical dry potentially harsh sound .he wants warm realistic pleasant sound and it exists.some tube preamps do just that. 
realism vs accuracy: realism can startle or scare you like you are sitting close to the piano when a low note is played out of silence.  it's the system's ability to persuade you -if it's convincing it's realistic
it's how the amp lets the impact (which originally exist in the recording) project.accuracy is not about projection and can be measured .you compare it to the recorded event it doesn't say anything about musicality or engaging sound it's a more technical 
sound like studio monitors (ns10's)no fun at all like looking through a microscope. neutrality is a bad word .it means that whoever designed the amp had no balls or he doesn't know who he is or what he wants. it lacks personality. like some nad amps not cold not warm not anything .but all the reviewers rave about them because it gets along more easily with other components .like headphones try and make people confuse a treble emphasis as openness or a high resolution/detailed sound,nad amps like the c352 confuse dry empty lifeless polite sound with a transparent sound.
my best example is the old arcam delta 60 amplifier (british 90's gem probably 200$ used )  it had no tone knobs while all other integrated amps had tone knobs. because they know better and won't let anybody screw up their sound. 
 
@danIncredible post on Lesh.....

Absolutely brilliant sound and setup...

Way ahead of the curve.
I till have very fond memories of my 1970s Phase Linear powered stacked (Wood, yes they sounded better) Advent system. I even stacked some B&W's for a decade, until I got 803's.
The best sounding electric bass ever, IMHO, was Phil Lesh, with each of his 4 (sometimes 5) string pickups channeled through a dedicated channel  of McIntosh amps, with multiple sets of JBL speakers for each string and pickup.  Woofer movement from one pickup channel did not affect another channel, avoiding all intermodulation distortion.  From 32 to 48 300 watt solid state and 350 watt tube amps were used for the complete 11 channel sound system, depending on both venue, and our failing memories.  Check it out  by googling Dead Wall of Sound, then click images. Interestingly, two of the designers were Owlsey Stanley, of LSD fame, and John Curl of Alembic and Mark Levinson fame.  (The JC in ML model numbers.)
It’s an unfortunate fact that no audio system--regardless of size & price--can even come close to the power & scope of live music (or live in studio music). So those of use who love audio gear as a means of enjoying music are left with choices re which subset of musical characteristics we prioritize. For example, it’s rather easy to find gear that emphasizes transients, dynamics, deep bass & high treble to give an illusion of realism, accuracy, resolution--all the usual descriptives. But someone else may value gear that emphasizes soundstage, subtle ambient/acoustic cues, roundness of tone/timbre, and natural rendition of space.

I’m in the latter camp; my preferences were formed by years of attendance at live music of all kinds, including large-scale symphonic, choral, and operatic works (plus countless rock, jazz, and world music performances). It took years of wasted time & money to find equipment that suited my tastes. In the big 2-channel system, that meant Vandersteen speakers (whose 6dB/octave crossovers trade a bit of dynamic strength for musical coherence and a relaxed quality that appeals to me); and tube amplification, for that 3D rendition of notes that sounds like reality to me.

I’m now deep into desktop audio, including high-end headphones--and all the same comments apply. It’s easy to find gear that throws out razor-sharp transients and ear-busting treble. Me being me, I go in the other direction.

The point really is: we’re all just selecting & assembling our preferred subset of musical qualities, working with the best that audio equipment can do to imitate music. There's really no right or wrong in these preferences...
Ishka, please audition your favorite contra-base/cello recordings through MG 37is.  My take is that their line source drivers produce more realistic long string sound than do most cones.

My ears tell me I am hearing nuanced detail I can’t hear from cones.  My imagination tells me that linear drivers produce sound waves more like long strings do.  My brain tells me that low mass membranes are so fast they can reveal audible vibratory energy pulses that cannot be replicated by cones. I’m thinking that low mass beryllium tweeters probably benefit detail in the high end for the same reason.

Please don’t give more weight than due to the E’s comments.  I find that a good blast of high THC yerba improves SQ far more than even the most expensive doped rocks, wood shims or exotic conductors.  I guess it must be my doped internal wiring that is the key!?

The notorious Mpingo Disc is made of both Aftrican Blackwood (Mpingo) and Gabon ebony. Confusing, ain’t It? To make it even more confusing there’s something hidden inside the Mpingo disc. You can see the small circular disc of a different wood than the main body hiding what’s inside if you look carefully at a photo of a Mpingo disc. 👀 Gee, I wonder what it could be......😳

Shun Mook’s Diamond Resonators (footers) are also made of African Blackwood and are grounded with a real diamond tip. Otherwise the footers would resonate back into the component. That’s why people oft have different or bad results with these hardwood blocks and blanks. They’re resonators. And they’re directional. Hel-loo!
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@jtcf


Another instrument which my tube amp gets right is horns, especially the Sax. I was quite surprised at how real it sounds. Its as if you can hear the reeds fluttering. I never experienced that with my SS amps even though they got good reviews.
I feel the same artemus.Tubes excel at getting the timbre and harmonics correct.
@ishkabibil  I am a drummer who, like you appreciate a good bass line. I have fought for years to get the bass up to where it sounds right. My room is very large which helped emphasize the lack of bass. I've always heard the tubes do not do bass as well as solid state. IMO, this is not the case. It was only after I got a tube amp that I heard bass with the body that a bass generally has. 

@Elizabeth Several years ago I read about using pumice stones as footers under my cdp. Though a skeptic, these are readily available and cheap. (Used for pedicures). I picked up some of them and tried it. I could not believe what I was hearing and how much better. as you say, like different tubes which are better. This began my experiments with footers. I learned about DIY roller blocks which took the performance up even further. I also learned that I can change the sound by changing the material which the ball is made from. Wood is best for my system. Metal and stone balls tend to emphasize the high frequencies more than wood. However I can see that if my system were bass heavy, the metal or stone balls would be my preference to add some clarity. Its quite interesting that such small changes can make such a difference.

For someone with a lot of spare time ⏰ and money 💰 💰. It’s the Tile and Crystal Tweak! Here’s what you need. Lots of 4x4 inch ceramic tiles. Lots of Mikro Brilliant Pebbles (small crystals of various types). Lots of audio cones - preferably DH Cones, Small, Medium and Super sizes. If you’re strapped for cash use only DH Cones or if you’re really hurting for cash any cones will suffice.

Here’s how it works. You build little ceramic tripod tables with one ceramic tile supported by three cones. Here’s the tricky part: place the ceramic tile tripod wherever there’s a vibrational “node” in the room. A vibrational node can be anywhere unwanted acoustic or mechanical energy is at a peak. 🔝 E. g., top of tube trap, on floor against side wall, on top of speaker cabinet, etc. You can either guess where the peaks are in the room or measure them with a sound pressure level SPL meter. Finally, place one Mikro Brilliant Pebbles on top of the ceramic tile tripod.

It’s is practically impossible to run out of places where these little dickens will not improve the sound. For the advanced audiophile: Doubling the number of tiles and cones by constructing a DOUBLE tripod table is even better! 🤗 Start hoarding your Brilliant Pebbles and DH Cones now! As Bob Dylan says at the end of all his songs, good luck to you.
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@elizabeth
exotic wood bits under the equipment
Do you mean like the Yamamoto ebony wood blocks, the myrtle wood blocks from  Cardas, or something else?

Regarding the discussion of this thread, I find dynamics to be important to my satisfaction with a system, i.e., the ability of the system to transition between the loudest and softest passages, as well as impact, or the ability of the system to create the illusion that the listener can “feel” certain dynamics as they can be perceived in life, such as a kick drum or stand up (or electric) bass. I have found that ability to be mostly a function of amplifier power, speaker efficiency, speaker driver size, and room size.....you need enough power and headroom to more than “adequately” drive the speakers, which themselves must be able to move enough air for the size room they are being asked to fill with music.
We could focus on other instruments that often sound weak even on very expensive setups. Timpani is one. Trombone. If you’ve ever had the pleasure of hearing a great trombone player in person, especially an orchestral one, you’ll know there is this presence to the sound that wraps around you. There is a heavy core (fundamental) in the mid bass with overtones that add sparkle.
@stringreen 

Forgive me for pitzing the Bass and not bowing in that show...

I needed more whomp.

Peter Appleyard prefers Bass players to Pitz it for the style of music we were playing.
@allHi I am Ishkabibil 

If you saw my link and thought my over blown Bass was just the best part of that band...and as overblown as it might have been please drop me a vote for being so dam good.

Thx
@stringreen 

If you are not hearing any whomp in Upright Classical Bass or any Bass for that fact...uhhh...
@stringreen 

Did you see ny link?

Does that look like an electric bass to you?

As for anything overblown it is your reply..
Ccme on man...why so confrontational?
ishkabible....of coarse you like overblown bass....you think your part is the best.   I would guess you play electric bass.  If you play classical upright and listen to Gary Karr, et al, tone is the goal and not whomp.
Ishkabilil wrote: " Are not accuracy and realism much the same? "

You would think so, but here is an example of what can happen: "Accuracy" is often evaluated by some relatively convenient metric, such as total harmonic distortion, which may or may not correspond to what sounds like "realism" to the ears. And it just so happens that THD does NOT correlate well with subjective preference in controlled double-blind testing. In other words, the standard yardstick for "accuracy" in amplifiers is arguably measuring the wrong thing!

So we end up with measurements which "establish" one amplifier as being more "accurate", when another amplifier which does not measure as well by THAT yardstick may actually sound more "realistic".

Ishkabibil again: "I am the easiest person to converse with come on I am a bass player..... "

I totally get it. Most of my business is with bass players (I’m a "boo-teek" bass cab manufacturer).

For those who don’t understand what Ishkabibil is talking about, what the bass player does is, he pours his energy into making the lead singer and the lead guitarist look really, really good. I read an article in a guitar magazine that said there were 27 guitar players for every bass player. So that’s twenty-seven guys who want to be in the limelight for every bass player who is happy to make them look good in that limelight.

To put it another way, if the Three Stooges had been a band, Larry would have been the bass player; he made Moe and Curly look good.

Duke
fwiw I made the original comment to make sure it was understood that I was ok with slightly colored sounds, such as warmth. It’s not like I was referring to some crazy difference. I find the difference between speakers far greater than the difference between amp, which is what the comment was about. 
@elizabeth - You make a very good point. 
I sometimes wonder when reviewers develop a clear auditory bias if it's their hearing, or if they have been paid.

But for an audiophile who is having a cultural, not a technical, exposure to gear, who is to say what neutral really means?
I think the solution to this is to always have comparisons ready.


Don’t know how to do that Elizabeth. But a 30 second google search turned up a few interesting JGH articles. I remember reading it all long ago ...
I'm ok with a colored sound. Prefer musicality and realism over "accuracy" or "neutrality"


In and of themselves these are totally arbitrary terms. The more you dig into it the more certain you will know this. That is why I can just about bet money you will never find these terms in any of my many detailed comments on the way something sounds. These terms simply have no meaning, and I am not big on writing nonsense.

Well, that's not quite exactly right now, is it? The no meaning part, I mean. (I write nonsense all the time! Sometimes even on purpose!) The meaning I get from it is the writer is saying, "There are people who like a sound they call accurate or neutral, and I prefer something different."

So there you go.
So you have an excellant recording that we know of but sounds like dirt on a system...

An accurate system will tell you if the recording or mix was terrible...
Take for example some old Neil Young..

Better to listen to on an inferior system..
I look at it this way......

I hear on a system an upright bass.
If it sounds real and I mean I can hear al the subleties one hears when pressing down a string on a fretboard its resonance it gives....then attack and bottom and actual notes then it is an accurate reproduction. When rhythm and chord are accurate via accurate sound then you have a real reproduction of the bass.

Musicality is when the system jams...when it has actual soul in the sound....
Some digital stream systems are completely void of this instruments sound real but it has no "jam" to it...
There's the Bass the Guitar..etc...but it sounds like they are playing in seperate rooms....
Its like what some TV setups have in that HandyCam look the images are brilliant but the picture has no soul to it.
Nicely stated. 

Accurate is as precise and unchanged as possible playback of what the mikes picked up and got recorded.  Realistic is feeling like you might have been there, live.  Unfortunately, the two often don't coincide, for reasons already discussed above.
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I look at it this way......

I hear on a system an upright bass.
If it sounds real and I mean I can hear al the subleties one hears when pressing down a string on a fretboard its resonance it gives....then attack and bottom and actual notes then it is an accurate reproduction.  When rhythm and chord are accurate via accurate sound then you have a real reproduction of the bass.

Musicality is when the system jams...when it has actual soul in the sound....
Some digital stream systems are completely void of this instruments sound real but it has no "jam" to it...
There's the Bass the Guitar..etc...but it sounds like they are playing in seperate rooms....
Its like what some TV setups have in that HandyCam look the images are brilliant but the picture has no soul to it.

look for some old JGH articles in Stereophile about accuracy and musicality 
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@ all who enjoyed the video....

Yes at 18 cameras rolling and Carrie Smith hands you a chart....well as they say.."game on"....Great fun with those guys...and so many stories... the trumpet player...trombone player all from Scotland  .....from the Stompermania craze....pre rock and roll... pre Beatlemania.....Jack Bruce played with the trumpet  player when Jack was 18 or so...and I could never figure out why I got along so well with Malcolm the trumpet player till finding this out...  he met all those cats like Clapton too...they use to listen to Dixie just like Brian Jones of the Stones did too....the rivers run very deep in music I must say.....
I don’t have a problem with that.  Some of the best amps I ever heard were CJ Premiere 8s. Neutral?  hahahahah, no.


It is your money, buy what you like to hear.

My bigger pet peeve are speaker and equipment reviewers who call very colored pieces of gear "neutral" when they are so clearly not.
@ishkabibil nice video.You looked so intense trying not to screw up playing with the pros:-)You did yourself proud.Thanks for the link!
It's important to me to get the bass correct also.It needs to be organic and full so it feels real.
@mayorIt's really impossible to have a conversation with someone who applies his own unique definition to common words.

Come on chill bro....
@  seriously bro....

I am the easiest person to converse with come on I am a bass player......lol...

Nothing unique about  me believe me...

Peace.
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