Daz_Bike
I do remember liking it CAST/VSF over the other way but not something huge. Of course YMMV. It has been well talked about how a circuit will take a caps characteristics.
What I think helps in the thread is you can expect the same as others have got. The CAST do not resonate so this may be good for you but you WILL get less noise and this tilts the sound to more bass. My feeling is that the circuit takes the sound of the last cap the most?
I like the bloom of the VSF. We all know it was dead quiet in the studio yet for some reason we are used to a little noise? I suspect it is a the Clarity white paper says all caps resonate at a high freq so we are used to it. |
"We all know it was dead quiet in the studio yet for some reason we are used to a little noise?"
I think you've touched the white elephant in the room with most audio systems. IMO the perceived liveliness and so-called treble air of a lesser system is riding up on top of an underlying noise level that casual listeners find impressive. Along these lines, after recently treating various components with AVM anti-resonance paint, my first impression was the contradictory sense of qualities both gained and lost. But after further listening, it became clear that despite a slight perception of treble darkness, treble detail and extension had actually been improved.
It was particularly impressive to apply this paint to monolithic DSPs and op amp chips, the tops of electrolytic caps, resistor bodies, and tiny closely spaced circuit traces in CDP and Merlin line-stage BBAM. I'm beginning to think of the entire audio chain from silicon on up (not just capacitors) in terms of internally generated microphonic resonant affects. |
Hmmm interesting Dave.
I have always wondered why Audio is not clear cut like video. Put 10 guys in a room and they will mostly like the same TV as the best and will not have big disagreements either way. Ask the same question about Audio and you could have 10 different systems picked.
So 10 people looking for a different levels of microphony?
Most music we reference (in our minds) was amplified so of course it would have had noise when we heard it.
Another thing I bet is most of the guys spending money on high end (low resonant) caps are older. I find as I age I like less resonance. I become frustrated by noise yet still want "treble air".
For me it is going to be a combo of Jensen, Duelund VSF and CAST when noise needs to be reduced.
"I'm beginning to think of the entire audio chain from silicon on up (not just capacitors) in terms of internally generated microphonic resonant affects".
I think it is exactly that. |
"I'm beginning to think of the entire audio chain from silicon on up (not just capacitors) in terms of internally generated microphonic resonant affects".
This was a part of Steen's modus operandi. |
Since getting an all foil signal chain of vintage and then massively improving with Duelund I have only one nagging question?
In the begining of this thread I took as fact my Linn Lp12 sounded great and the Linn Karik a piece of junk capable of making everything sound dead and plastic.
Well several K$'s in Duelund parts and my CD player sounds awesome. Crazy super natural sounding! Just mind boggling. Now my Lp12 (almost a loaded one before recent updates) can sound very good but there is always present a slight groove noise that is clear to me know. Even on mint (almost never played) vinyl. It gets worse as you move through the LP. The stylus is not very old either.
Now if one thinks about it. Why would there NOT be almost a static high freq sound caused by the rubbing of diamond on vinyl? Also it should get worse as the stylus moves faster in the groove.
So after ditching 150+ lps because of clear wear and have more to ditch. I have thought about getting rid of the turntable maybe as well.
This is not what I thought was going to happen by getting high quality parts. I believe the "treble air" I thought was some unique part of the vinyl "live" experience is really just high freq static mechanically generated. Of course digital can not generate this "treble air". |
"Of course digital can not generate this "treble air"."
Sure it can. Try upsampling.
My Zero One Mercury CD/HD player has selectable oversampling and upsampling from 44kHz to 196KHz. I find that the oversampling modes (even multiples of 44KHz such as 176KHz) sound much cleaner and more natural then the upsampling modes (such as 196KHz), which tend to introduce the "treble air" you speak of. At first it sounds like an enhancement, but soon it starts grating on my nerves.
I can also select the high-frequency filter to be the typical brickwall or several more gentle slopes; I find the HQ2 setting the best (between brickwall and very shallow slope) - too shallow a slope and you get unwanted high-frequency stuff introduced to the components that makes it sound markedly worse, too steep and you get noticable ringing on HF notes.
Finally, I can also choose the dither setting used to reduce noise - in this case I prefer no dither at all. |
Put back in the EL84 to compare one last time CAST vs. VSF in tweeters. For me it is whether it is 1 CAST with a VSF in series or 2 CAST's. (for SURE not 2 VSF's) I want to solder this up with the Duelund wire (speakers) and one last order on coupling caps and be done.
Very happy. |
What a saga...you are a very patient man with a great deal of time on your hands. Congrats. |
Roxy54
I was a ticked man who did not know why my new gear could not touch this old stuff and I had to find out why? (personality trait or flaw) I don't subscribe to the vintage is better thing so I had to understand why? Foil caps with no plastic. Plastic permeates so much of most modern hi-fi. No doubt due to cost.
There is one major rock I did not overturn and that would be a SET amp. Also never went down the Silver wire or caps route. (just out of my league) |
Retesting the CAST vs. VSF tweeter caps.
The CAST cut tweeter output by at least 50% in my mind compared to VSF. (two in each circuit)
Now is this all increased resonance in the VSF?
It would be nice to hear fom Duelund on this as this is huge difference. I was confused when I heard two CAST vs. two VSF before as I did not expect such a change? I am still shocked! Almost like a resistor in circuit? Duelund if I check ohms both caps will be the same?
Is all the extra VSF sound just resonance?
I have to agree with Steen even his VSF you can hear the tweeter cap all over the signal.
In my opinion skip the VSF in the tweeters and go for the CAST but you are going to get more bass from the less high freq.
Ait have you retested?
I am going to wire up the speakers for now though anyway and get back to finishing the amp or Duelund is going to have me broke!
The Jensen for anyone interested are a low res cap like the CAST lower then the VSF which is all about tone. The Jensen weakness is in the midrange not being as natural.
Next week I am ordering more Jensen and Duelund to finish project. |
I'm sure that's proprietary knowledge.
But I agree, I was also shocked at the difference between the two. |
Well, I couldn't really ask clients to pay more for the CAST than the VSF, if the sound was the same...? :)
The difference between the CAST and the VSF is in the internal and external damping. |
After several days of listening I still feel the same as I did before. Two CAST might be too quiet and two VSF to noisy. So it is going to be CAST followed by VSF.
I have one poly cap left a Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil that did not sell when I sold off the poly caps.
After several months I want to see if I still felt the same there as well. Was I being to harsh?
After only a few minutes most is still the same. Instruments lose their natural tone and this is even with all foil signal chain and one CAST tweeter cap followed by the Mundorf Silver in Oil. I will take back some of what I did say though. The balance is not off. The CAST tilts the sound down and the Silver in Oil back up so the balance is not bad. Like Tony says like cooking.
Still there is something about the way poly caps resonate they do not make natural sounds? I hear they test well on the S/N ratio and I believe they are very good on the noise part but not good on the signal.
I think Tony needs to test the Jensen Paper Copper tube as well. I think we will have #1,#2 and #3 right there.
Where the sound is at
The other day my mother was over and I had the music turned up (Norah Jones) and was upstairs. She could not believe what she was hearing. She knows nothing about this test and I do not say anything. She could care less about Audio (but is an amatuer singer) in general and thinks her Bose Wave Radio sounds as good as anything else she's heard with less fuss. She was beside herself with what she was hearing. She had to go downstairs to see/hear what that was. She is in her 60's and does not get like this over audio. (never) She could not believe it. She had never heard a tube all foil signal. |
Just got in 2 more Jensen Copper Paper tube caps and a Black Gate. I want to finish at least one amps power supply as well. Also want to compare a Jensen full signal to some Duelund as well. |
I have been very busy with work for last couple weeks. I had been over on the Linn site (when home) talking about foil caps and vintage tubes and how natural it sounds. There was another guy there saying the same thing. Talking about his Scott amp. I noticed it within seconds when I first heard a all foil tube amp and foil crossover that it was warts and all vastly superior to the SS and poly caps or new tube gear I had heard.
I think Linn has suspended my account though? I can not log on anymore, maybe just temporary? (but likely not) It was I understand one of the top 20 threads ever on the Linn site and of course causing controversy.
It actually blows my mind that MANY Linn guys will say vintage recordings are the best on vinyl (recorded with tube amps and foil caps) but tube amps are no good? If the reverse of the chain foil caps and tubes makes a great recording how can it not be great for play back? |
I think I'm finally understanding how detrimental plastic is in audio. I have replaced my speaker caps with Duelund VSF copper as well as the coupling caps in my preamp. I also recently went with new interconnects that don't have any plastic( i.e. teflon) in them. Each change brought me a much more natural musical portrait of the music. |
I can say one thing, Plastic has nothing to do with it. Let the argument begin... |
Sherod
The IC's were noticable as well? Have you done the speaker wire?
Undertow Plastic has nothing to do with it? Ok what is it then?
Why do all my low amount or no plastic parts always sound better? |
Volleyguy,
The interconnects weren't made by Duelund. They are from a relatively new company. I also installed some new speaker internal wire with special wire containing no plastic, these made for or by Marigo Labs. The speaker wires are one of my next projects. |
Consider that the choice of synthetic vs. natural materials may serve different purposes in difference applications. The natural (silk?) wrap around each filament in a Marigo cable may serve to dampen vibration, independent of the performance of the material as a dielectric. Teflon in a cap may be chosen entirely for its dielectric properties. Metalized polypropylene in a cap may be interesting for its ability to be tensioned to reduce resonance, and for the reduced skin effect of thin film. Proper conclusions cannot be drawn without unpacking the many variables of engineering, and of course not all products are well engineered independent of choice of materials. |
I agree. Choosing materials is one thing. How they are engineered into the final product is another. |
Has anyone heard the Audiocap PCU and care to share their experiences
I'm in the process of recapping my tube amps and this looks like a really good cap
Opinions appreciated |
My computer had crashed awhile ago so just getting some log-ins back.
Of course agreed the choice is not just of materials but how they are put together, no one could argue that. Tempo Electric had the old Jensen Aluminum Paper in Oil were Tier F and Duelund was tops and other than copper the material was not that different.
The question would be why the Jensen was rated so poor? My guess is noise (poor construction) and Aluminum not sounding as good as copper. The Poly caps though having different faults. Fake sounding.
So does it not make sense to start with at least natural sounding qualities and lower the faults?
I have one full signal of just Duelund VSF (just one) and rest Jensen Copper Foil Paper Tube and other signal all Jensen except last two still vintage. Dynamics and bass is the only real difference and it is big.
For me I feel I have got all I was looking for. The tone of vintage and the dynamics and bass of modern.
So I guess I mean their is nothing special about a vintage capacitor that has not been bettered in every way today. |
Are you still doing all this to your klipsch? And if so how much use is your findings unless ones using the same klipsch model and system as you. They would also have to share your personal tastes. I check this thread from time to time but I dont think your results are in anyway more than just finding what sound you enjoy little about how these capacitors etc would perform with other loudspeakers diferant network types and with diferant listening tastes and systems. |
JohnK
It is true it is my tastes. It has been said on here by many others though they do feel the same.
The Klipsch are long done. After great results I wanted to know if the same could be done to an amp.
Right now one signal (in the amp) is all Jensen Copper Foil Paper tube with one Duelund VSF and the other is the same except just one vintage. I wanted to know if I could hear the difference from just one capacitor and it shocks me how much. Easily and no problem. Tonight was the first time I had to really test this out.
I will be ordering another Duelund VSF and comparing Duelund against Jensen. Should be interesting. I never would have believed this till I tried, one cap wow! This does get the mind to thinking???? |
Has anyone tried Maple Shades wires? Interesting ideas of thin wires. |
It seems like someone else has heard the magic of the vintage amps. Got the caps replaced and end of the magic.
So JohnK is it just "my tastes" or is their really something to foil caps. I already know the answer.
I am glad I have kept one all original EL84 Fisher to have as a reference for the Jensen vs. Duelund test because the cheap alternative is just the vintage amp but like many said on the other thread the vintage does have faults. Faults in dynamics but for sure not tone and aliveness. |
I'm a little confused. Are you saying that when you replaced the caps in the amp with the Duelund VSF, that's when you lost the magic? |
Sorry Sherod for the confusion.
No I was just posting a link of a guy who owned a vintage amp (who loved it) with foil caps got it back from being overhauled (no doubt with poly) and it lost the magic. I too found the same with my speakers. It was much harder than I thought to replace the vintage foil caps and get something as good or better. That is where Duelund came in. It was only then did I find a cap better in all ways. I had mentioned when I heard all foil (for the first time) from amps to speakers one would have to deaf not to realise there is something real about the sound.
In the amp I only have used foil caps, Duelund and Jensen. I had heard the same story as the link I have posted (changing to poly caps) so many times I did not even do it.
As Frederik said even Steen stayed with vintage caps till his own went in. (VSF) In that other thread that Atmashere said
"Most older paper coupling caps while not very good performers were in fact very nice sounding and are actually sought after for some of their qualities".
The gist of that thread was (to me) while replacing caps you get better low end freq less noise but can lose the "magic". Magic is hard to measure as opposed to S/N of which poly would excel.
We need a magic meter! (just kidding) Something that could measure how accurate the instrument sounded. |
The human ears are still the best "magic meter" that mankind has. (o: |
Volleyguy:Really like the Mapleshade/Omega Mikro cabling.Had access to many cable lines,when working at a dealership many years ago.I had bought my IC/SC then ,before hearing the OMs (about $1K each).
I couldn't believe what these cables did.There was the "music" which I had caught glimpses of.Much "good reading "at their website.The cables are fragile,but unless you change cables often-not a real problem.My reference. |
Another new cable line is from a relatively new company in New Zealand called Antipodes:
http://antipodesaudio.com/
This new company makes only interconnects, but they are very innovative and novel in their design( they use no plastic)...I thought you would like that, and their unique design makes them less system dependent than any cable I've tried. Their entry-level Katipo is extremely musical and dynamic. The company is currently offering these cables in Audiogon auctions at real bargain prices and offer a 30-day guarantee. Currently my new reference in my system. |
Tpsonic
So that really does work thin wire? Hmmmm
Sherod
I do like the no plastic for sure. I am going to stick with Duelund though.
I see Jimmy has installed another set of CAST cap's. He is now so thrilled he is going to order the Silver CAST. At one time I would have thought it insane caps at that price.
He has also rewired with Duelund. I should get my butt in gear as the wire is just sitting here. I am ordering the second VSF but am scared to get the bug for more.
Jimmy is for sure right about the synergy of Duelund caps. (or good foil in general) As far as I know he had just one in the signal before and not in the speakers? |
Volleyguy:Yes,I have heard 35 ga (Walkers' Bio-wire) and 54 ga wire in an older OM design.There seems to be a greater coherency to phase.The ribbons go one further,until they get too thin and fragile.A law of diminishing returns.
I was surprised when speaking with the manufacturer,that their ribbons could handle over 5000W before the conductor was compromised (spkr cable/no idea about the IC-but that kind of power doesn't pass thru ICs).
Happy New Year! |
Tpsonic
That sure goes against what we have been told. (thin wire)
I read lots of hostile thoughts on Maple Shade. (mostly from people who have not heard their products) A lot of what they say is for sure against the grain.
So I take it skin affect? (for the coherency)
Frank from Tempo Electric did say hearing is believing.
|
Volleyguy:It also has to with dialectric.As dialectric is much like a capacitor.It can change the hi-frequencies and absorb/re-release and not in phase with the incoming signal.I find the cables to be fairly "honest".Whether this flatters the system is another issue.
They revealed to me that even though an amplifier can drive a load,it may not do it in a linear fashion (IE:Lamm M1.1s and a 1.5 ohm impedance). |
Extremely interesting website on speaker design from Tannoy. Frank from Tempo is very big on the large vintage Tannoy's for the $.
http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy52.htm
What I have learned is that 3/4" Birtch plywood is thought to be one of the best for sound. I always wondered why the low freq tones sounded better from vintage Klipsch. I knew Paul Klipsch liked 3/4" Birch but did not know it to be popular with Tannoy as well. Audio Note use 3/4" Russian Birtch plywood. I also find out that drum makers go to great lengths to have a low glue to wood ratio. I guess MDF would be at the opposite end of the scale.
Vintage Tannoy lovers (as is Frank and Dr. Loesch) thought the vintage Alnico magnets special. Tannoy dropped AlNiCo at around the same time as Klipsch due to cost and supply of Colbalt.
I can say the vintage Tannoy's would be on a short list of speakers I would like to hear.
Tannoy used Auto Formers as did Klipsch and no Electrolytic's in the crossover.
As has been talked about before Tannoy says printed circuit boards are detrimental to sound quality.
So what speakers other than vintage Klipsch and Tannoy use Alnico magnets, no electrolytics, 3/4" Birch plywood, 15" woofers, foil in oil caps?
It is easy to see why cost would be incredible for large speakers right from construction to shipping to store footage space and foil caps.
My dealer always put Tannoy and vintage Klipsch people in the same group? I have only heard there cheaper models. |
Tpsonic
Something has occured to me that I never thought of. The North Creek inductor that I found to be a frustrating part as it had some good qualities but sounded hard. I thought the reason was resonance, is it? I wonder if now it was the skin affect? Frank from Tempo Electric said the original Duelund inductors did not sound that great. I believe he said they were wire as well? Hmmm? I will have to check back in this thread to see what Frank said. |
I just went to partsconnexions website and in the listing for Duelund wire the Silver is foil and the copper (which I have) is solid. Hmmmm might have to test that one out?
I just thought the difference was Copper and Silver. I was thinking I had copper caps why spend the money on silver wire? But the construction is totally different and maybe very noticable?
Might have to e-mail Duelund on this one as to how much different? |
Volleyguy:Funny you should mention birch,as this is the material I made my rack shelves out of.
You might look at the Jantzen crosscoil inductors.They use a ribbon.I really liked them in a crossover re-build that I under took. |
Tpsonic
My speaker parts are done. (all Duelund VSF and CAST) I have Duelund WPIO inductors and they sound excellent. I just have to wire up permanent and might try some of that Silver foil hook up cable to compare against Duelund's Copper. (which is not installed yet either)
I have heard good stuff about Jantzen though. They were one part I was going to try for inductors as well, but compared North Creek to Duelund. |
Volleyguy
If you still have a North Creek inductor order up some Cascade Audio V-bloc. This material is a heavy anti vibrational paint that goes on purple and drys hard as a rock to a dense black color. I painted the parasitic filter inductor in my solid state amp and the V bloc made for a simple nice upgrade. I have since wound my own 8 gauge inductor for this same circuit and painted with V Bloc..wow nothing like an 8 gauge inductor tied to the output of an amp. I checked the Q of this inductor before and after the application of the V bloc. The Q dropped 20% with the anti resonance paint applied. Writing this for someone like your self who may have both a doped Duelund and a stock 8 gauge North Creek to compare the direct benefits of hard anti resonant treatment of a an untreated air core inductor. Tom |
What's the difference between this Cascade Audio V-bloc and AVM? Reference 3a is now painting all their driver magnets and baskets with AVM and it makes a nice improvement in clarity and dynamics. |
Sherod
Glad you asked. I just treated the cd spindle platter of my transport with AVM and wow what a nice improvement..I have always heard an improvement after using AVM..now almost across my entire syatem. I use the Cascade on large surface areas, devices that are not as refined such as inductors and transformers. The Cascade is more heavy handed in that it can remove some of subtle musical detail along with the resonance that it tames. AVM never seems to do this it somehow is selective...How could that happen?
I have painted speaker dust caps and interior speaker surfaces with the Cascade product. At first there is a slight negative overall but then after a couple days of cure time it all comes back and is better overall.
Cascade you can purchase by the gallon for what a couple of ounces of AVM costs.
I selectively use both depending on the surface area and the activity of the device. Tom |
Tom
Mine is a 10 guage and I do still have it and would have tried the material but have already bought the Duelund's inductors. Is this the same material Dgarrestson was using?
Just one question how did you measure your Q? You must have some serious testing equipment! Tom your testing equipment is for sure out of the league of mine. How did you do that?
I only sound tested the NC and did like some things about it but could not get past the high freq hardness and I did not understand/or expect that to be and issue on a low freq inductor. I assumed it was resonance but do not know if it was skin affect? |
Volleyguy,
Both Dave and I use AVM. Dave has told me he too hears the benefits of this blue goo. To my knowledge Dave has never used the Cascade treatment.
I used the original version of Cascade 10 years ago on my Dunlavy speaker mod and it made for a huge improvement after treating the interior walls of the cabinets. The new version of the Cascade is easier to apply by brush or spray..goes on purple and drys matt black, so it looks fairly nice.
The Cascade is much more affordable than the AVM. For selective big jobs I use Cascade as I wrote previous. For speaker baskets I would use Cascade for tweeter bezels I would use Cascade for the interior of a soft dome tweeter and I would use AVM..now in that process mode of trial.
My suggestion is to treat the North Creek inductor that you know the sound of so well with Cascade, 2 or 3 coats..cure and compare again to the Duelund. Can that application bring the North Creek closer to the soul of the Duelund? What you have left over you may want to apply to an internal surface of a speaker cabinet. Tom |
I wound a pair of 2.7 mH inductors last year using 10 awg wire. I found the process extremely clumsy. I did it by hand sitting on the floor using my feet to hold the spool steady while I carefully laid the wire around a wooden dowel. It was tedious to say the least and took many hours. Is there any other way to do it without using a winder? I want to build a few more, but I'd like to do it as efficiently as possible.
Thanks for any suggestions!
Mark |
Just ordered another Duelund cap for the shoot out with Jensen.
I also ordered Duelund Silver Foil wire for the the hook up.
I do expect the Duelund to win but will see. More natural midrange than Jensen |
Hooking up the woofers with Duelund solid copper wire and either I am doing something wrong or this stuff is hard to work with! Solder just falls off the wire. Very slippery!
I will try again tommorow.
I did sand the end of the copper wire to get off (I thought) the silk.
I tried Mundorf Silver solder and regular solder. |
I did get one wire to take and looking forward to hearing this tommorow. I just did not sand off the silk enough the first time, I guess? |
