At around 5-7 hours now and I took out the North Creek inductor so each speaker is exactly the same as the Jensen was starting approach the sound quality of the vintage cap. Which is much better than when it went in!
Vintage still has the edge in tonality at this point but sounds flat. The Jensen Copper paper tube is getting much better, Jensen sounds quieter and more dynamic and now smoother as well. At this pace it should not take long to be better in every regard than the vintage.
That will make more confident to contemplate spending Duelund kind of money on a vintage amp. To be honest I did not know if the phono stage was fundementaly flawed or just a poor cap? |
Now at around 10+ hours.
When the Duelund went in the speakers it was not many hours and I was shocked at how easy it was to pick out every instrument.
I can't say that is happening with the Jensen. (as far as new tonality) I can say (but Jimmy already did) is that that cap has great swing! I am already listening almost exclusively to the speaker with the Jensen.
The musical message is much better than the vintage now. This is an enjoyable cap to listen too.
I will be installing another as the pre-amp coupling cap.
As always I like to leave one signal original and change part by part.
I will be interesting to see where Tempo puts this cap. IMO it is better than a Mundorf Supreme. (I have not put Mundorf into electronics)
I am excited to see if the Duelund adds tonality in electronics like they do in the crossover.
Speaking of that Frederik is that cap and inductor coming? |
03-12-09: Dgarretson
You will have even more shocking results using the Clarity MR on your woofers than the tweeters :-)
03-12-09: Undertow
Thats where the clarity really excells, best bass I have heard from any system, WAY more impact than any mundorfs have in Low frequency response as you state above.
How were you guys evaluating the bass response? With an MR cap in the shunt position of the woofer low pass filter? Or the series position of a midrange bandpass filter?
In a second order or still higher filter?
Does the better MR capacitor in the shunt position provide a significantly noticable improvement or is it a great amount of overkill to put an array of very expensive caps (for the large values needed) where they shunt the out of band signal to ground? |
Merlin VSM is a two-way with a second-order crossover-- one series cap in tweeter section & one shunt cap in woofer section. You can easily hear what the cap in woofer section is doing from 2200hz crossover down to around 30hz. In other applications I've also found that improvements to shunt cap make a difference. |
For large values in the the LF circuit, you can probably get by using a smaller value MR to bypass a cheaper film cap.
I found a very noticeable difference using MR's in the shunt position(parallel notch) of my Tannoy's HF circuit. I've also used them in the shunt position of my custom speaker's midrange and woofer. There I found the difference in the LF subtle in comparison though.
IMO, they're the next best thing to the Duelund CAST. |
Face
Have you tried this new Jensen?
We may have a new #3 cap in the world? CAST, VSF and then Jensen Copper Paper Tube? It will be interesting where Tony puts this cap but it is going to be very high!
I sure concur with Jimmy's affection for this cap.
I have ordered a few more for later this week when the Duelund inductor comes in. |
No, the largest value I could find is 1uf, which is too small for any of my loudspeaker applications, and their smaller values are physically too large to fit in any of my electronics. |
Face
This was an issue to me as well except in the 500c. (which I am doing for the livingroom and the Jensen is perfect) Many of the vintage amps have no room either. |
Thanks for the answers guys. Yeah, maybe that's the best plan: to use Janzten Cross-Caps for example as the basis for the woofer LP filter and bypass with a Clarity MR. A few designers warn against mixing types but probably for a low freq LP filter you're not going to get pronounced adverse effects even if you're looking for near audio perfection.
Even though the MR's might not have the superior tone and natural dynamics of the Dueland Cast caps, are they possibly in the same league in terms of imaging detail and sound stage size? |
Phildsp
That is one thing we all have to do is figure the best bang for our $. I think there is a lot more info out on this subject (of caps and I think them huge) then there was even a couple of years ago.
It can also be cheaper and better to change the caps in speakers or electronics rather than constant new gear, if you can figure out what does what. |
08-27-09: Phildsp
Even though the MR's might not have the superior tone and natural dynamics of the Dueland Cast caps, are they possibly in the same league in terms of imaging detail and sound stage size?
In my experience, it's very close. CAST's are a little more transparent though. |
I have often heard the difference from vintage to modern tube amps is the freq extreme's.
I think that goes directly to the vintage caps. They are VERY heavy in the midrange with very little bottom or top end. Some call that more natural. To me it is very lacking on the phono stage for sure. The tricky part is keeping something alive sounding while being full freq.
In Clarity's excellent White paper on caps they did say that 30% of people do like high resonating caps. What this says is that as shocking as it is 30% like "cheap" caps.
Whether it is V-Cap, Mundorf, Clarity or Duelund no one calls them high resonating caps. That is really amazing really. That means 30% would prefer a $1 cap over a $1k cap!
When doing my own tests, for 30 minutes people would pick the vintage caps over the Duelund's in the speakers then after 30 minutes they thought something was broken in the vintage. There must be something that we are either used too or naturally think is good with resonance?
We want the detail but do not want the sound to go thin or dead.
Another side benefit of the Duelund's has been it is obvious and painfully obvious on which LP's are worn. You are not guessing what is wrong. |
Years ago while upgrading my Dunlavy SC4's the first thing I did was seal the interior walls of the enclosure. Huge difference. Next was to build a multi resistor bridge using Vishay metal film resistors..Huge difference enough to make me wake my daughter and have her listen. Inductors swapped for North Creek 8 and 10 gauge..a little difference. Built multi caps to swap for the stock single value Solens. Things got worse especially in the bass lower mids.
Single upgrade cap in comparison to the same value Solen..the sub cap sounded much better. With that experience in ear and mind I built multi caps stacked all of the same manufacturer type and brand the outcome sounded thin and less involving. Its as if the bass was now combed and filtered ..multifiltered uneven in transistion. All caps were built within 1% of original published/printed Dunlavy values. My experience in this rebuild venture makes me profess the cabinet seal material the resistor bridges as well as the inductors. The multi-cap mis-adventure or by-pass has since made me stay with single cap swaps only..which I feel make for a better listening experience. Thats how I heard things . Tom |
I also feel that when possible, a single cap is the best solution. I feel that paralleling multiple caps, especially on the HF circuit, can lead to some smearing. But, I would still take two high quality caps paralleled over a cheap or mediocre cap. |
Jimmy has done it again.
I think he wanted to make sure the Duelund was worth the extra cost over the Jensen.
Once I am done figuring out which coupling cap matters most, I expect phono stage tube cap but do not know maybe a CAST cap there? I can say that would be before any turntable or cartridge upgrades. |
The Duelund WPIO inductor is here.
As with all Duelund products it has a smell that makes you feel you could eat it.
It has a similiar look as the vintage inductor (meaning wax paper type) except again clearly better made. The vintage wires (and is not a foil) are not held so tight. Clearly Duelund looks like a quality product. Duelund is just one hard chunk. Looks different than the pics too guys? The whole inductor is sealed like CAST?
The first 15 minutes are VERY good. Again Duelund sounds excellent right out of the box. Duelund has been the only product that is better than vintage in EVERY way and once again EVERYTIME.
The North Creek inductor was better in some ways but not in others. (ringing)
I took a big risk (for me) on this inductor. I knew the caps were worn out an inductor of course does not wear so the change from Duelund from vinage would have to be all in quality of part.
The sound is much more open than the vintage that while it does not ring is somewhat dead and muffled. How Duelund does this I do not know? The sound is alive.
Duelund keep stunning balance.
I have more Jensen Copper paper tube caps here and will do one signal in them. So far they are pretty good but even the Jensens which are better than the vintage in the phono stage but the vintage does sound more alive? Jensen nice from top to bottom but so far not liquid alive sound like Duelund parts?
I will see if that is a Jensen trait?
Maybe I am gettin too picky? Like Jimmy says once you hear Duelund nothing else seems to cut it.
Right now the test is with no Jensen caps in the signal just off the CD.
One Duelund trait not many mention is they make your best and worst CD sound better. To me this is very important as who cares if just your best sounds better.
I will get to do a full comparison in the next few days after the inductor is broke in. I will do a Duelund/North Creek as well. |
Not to get off topic But I see Dueland will be at the RMAF
this year.Is anyone going? This should be exciting .I guess they will be displaying a speaker system with all cast components installed.
I hope to see u all at the show.
Don C. |
Volleyguy,
Glad you took the plunge with the Duelund inductors. As you know I have used North Creek 8 AWG inductors and feel they work best on the bass.
I use all Cast Duelund products in my crossover.
So just when I think I am done Frederik @ Duelund ups the ante and has developed a Cast version of their Silver graphite resistors. I placed my order and will report back when I receive them. I will be comparing them to the current Duelund resistors.
Maybe Frederik will jump in and comment on the differnce between the two resistors. |
I would cost me over $5700 to replace all my series inductors with CAST, and another $3500+ to upgrade my parallel inductors... When I win lotto. :) |
That's a compelling argument for a simpler crossover or perhaps a Lowther! |
Irish65,
I'll give the short version. We are using a new tube fused with our CAST material, which both lowers resonance and allows heat to better "escape" the resistive element.
Further, we are using a new type of glue around the resistor, which better controls resonances through means of a low Q nature.
Initial reception has been quite positive, which is always nice.
Att: Volleyguy, glad you like the Wpio, Steen was very fond of the design. |
Nice Irish65
I would expect with Duelund tradition you will notice a difference.
You never really could say what you thought the difference was in Duelund vs. North Creek in inductors. To me the NC is good down low but hardens the sound.
I am going to keep the North Creek until my whole signal chain is at least Jensen Copper Tube type. I want to be exactly sure and fair to North Creek. One thing is with out a doubt Duelund is very unique (to me) and not one of those parts that reveal weakness in your system. They seem to go with the flow.
Both the North Creek and Deulund both reveal that the vintage 28 (or something like that) guage inductor is really choking off a lot of signal. Which of course only makes sense. The North Creek let you know you had problems upstream. There was more there and more problems. Duelund to me is so unique that things sound much better without screaming problems elsewhere.
I have more Jensens to install this afternoon. The Duelund coupling cap and more Jensen's are on back order and will be in later in the month. I suspect it will be a full Duelund signal path when I am done. |
76doublebass,
We are sharing a room with the Kaiser Kawero loudspeaker. It features a predominantly CAST based filter.
I hope to meet if you guys decide to show up. |
Fredrick, does it use the same leads as your other resistors? |
From what I read, carbon composition resistors are the noisiest type - how does the Duelund resistor differ from an old carbon comp type, and why would this sound better than a bulk metal film? Is it because the graphite is not present as separate grains as in a carbon comp?
I have used the Texas Components TX2575 metal Z-films in electronics and they are incredibly clear sounding, although only 0.6W in power handling; I'm thinking that paralleling a few of those into a higher wattage for use on tweeters should sound better than a carbon-based resistor, no? |
Face,
Yes unless otherwise specified. |
Ait, I am addicted to TX2575 in electronics and believe it to be the cleanest sounding low-power resistor. That said, Duelund graphite resistors are superlative in speaker crossover, exhibiting transparency untypical of carbon comp. or carbon film. |
That's what I've heard about Duelunds, and I fully intend to try the Duelunds out. I was just asking a technical question of Duelund, I hope I didn't insult them. I'm just curious about how/why a carbon-based resistor can sound so good when carbon comps are known to be very noisy.
Is it the monolithic nature of the carbon, i.e. no grain boundaries? |
Ait:
Certainly not, but for the sake of not publishing too much information, would it suffice if I said, that they do differ a lot from the old carbon types, both in construction and sound. |
They're very transparent and don't have a sonic signature like Mills or MOX do. Be sure to give them a few hours or so to break in though. |
Thanks Irish65 on the Duelund inductor.
I know you hold the North Creek in high regard as well as Duelund. I now have a North Creek and Duelund WPIO in each speaker. I for sure do not want to diss North Creek in anyway. I will hold all comments back on the this till all caps are replaced in the amp. I expect this to be fairly close between the both when working with new caps in the amps.
For ones (like me) working on a limited budget and looking for best bang for the buck. Money spent so far for best bang.
1. Duelund VSF in the tweeters over anything else (for sure vintage!)
2. Phono stage coupling caps (Jensen Copper paper tube over vintage) Big improvement for small $.
3. CAST tweeter caps over VSF. Still a big jump even at this level.
I know have put another Jensen cap in from pre-amp to output tubes. Not as big a jump as the phono cap replacement. But still breaking in. But there are two caps in that path. |
Sorry guys I did not mean to stop the resistor talk. |
I will be installing the 3rd Jensen in the one signal path.
So far the two Jensens have increaed dynamics reduced noise made the sound quicker. They do not have a plastic sound like poly caps to me but yet the sound is more like HiFi. But that I mean I am completely aware I am listening to a stereo?
How I ended up with a vintage amp (and I have heard some very expensive new gear) was I was very curious how they can sound very real? Warts yes but alive.
So far only Deulund (in the speakers) seems to capture the magic aliveness of vintage with the advantages of modern. For me that is priority #1 is I do not want to feel I am listening to a stereo.
It is still very early in the Jensen break in and they can still come alive. I can see why Steen started with Jensen caps though not major faults. |
Frederik
You once said that Steen used (for coupling caps)
"Prior to his own designs, he used vintage designs such as paper in oils, and wax/paper types".
I have the two Jensens in the linestage and the sound is VERY similiar to vintage caps. I can see why so many have used Jensen as replacement for vintage caps.
The one thing they are not yet as good is the midrange reality. Voices are not yet as real as vintage and I am aware of listening to a stereo.
I find if the midrange/voices are not "alive" sounding nothing else matters in the sense of wanting to recreate live sound. You will always be aware of the sound coming from speakers.
It is still very early and the Jensen are getting better. In most ways they are already better but not in this one critical area. |
Volleyguy,
True, he did that untill his designs could be made to cope with DC. His main criteria was to get the midrange right, feeling that this was a neglected part of the frequency spectrum of available modern designs. |
Thanks Duelund
I am very excited to see what the VSF does in the DC signal path. I guess that the VSF is coming over in your next shipment at the end of the month? .047uf.
So far every Duelund part has preserved the "live" feel well reducing noise and giving better tonality. |
Just bought Rubber Soul on new remastered CD and am doing the burn in that way. It sounds terrible! Why do they keep doing this to music? Turn up all the instruments full blast and that's better, right? Clearly mixed for the video game. |
My ears are just recovering from Rubber Soul. I forgot how bad some recordings (compression and loudness) can be.
Closing in on 100 hours for the Jensen's and decent break in for the Duelund WPIO. I will change back to the EL84 so that the signal is identical this weekend to compare directly to the North Creek. |
Over on a DIY site a guy posted a picture of the crossover in his B&W 800D's, they have the following... Tweeter - 4.7uF Mundorf Gold/Silver Capacitor Midrange - 22uf+22uF+10uF Mundorf Supreme Capacitors Woofer - 100uf+100uF Mundorf Mcap Capacitors Tweeter/Midrange uses Van Den Hul CS-14 Copper/Silver 14AWG cable Woofers use copper 12AWG cable He was asking about changing the internal wire, which I would leave alone. |
I am over 100 hours on the Jensen's Paper Copper Tube caps.
Jensen vs. vintage.
Well not all vintage is the same as is not all new caps. In the phono stage Fisher used some no name cap and it was not very good. So Jensen there all the way.
Now on to the linestage.
Jensen vs. vintage foil Vishay Ero Fol II. What this Vishay has in common with the Vishay that Tony Gee talks about I am not sure, maybe nothing?
Although this vintage shares many of the same traits. They sound very alive. "concert hall acoustics" Tony says about new Vishay ERO is it the same?
When I was done doing the speakers and wrote on here that Duelund blew away the vintage tweeter caps but it was quite close in the midrange, much closer than I was thinking it would be. I expected to get a blast from everyone and including Duelund.
I now understand that since Steen used vintage in electronics and since this was a midrange cap test it was not surprsing that it was close.
The Jensen vs. Vishay is going to need the full 200 hours to decide. It is very close. When/if the Jensen moves past the vintage in midrange realness then I have a easy choice.
Some of the best deals in Audio must be those old foil caps because they go for chump change. (now that they are old)
The Duelund VSF for the midrange is $500 each and it was close to vintage foil. The Mundorf's Supreme's for the midrange were $100 and the vintage was much better. In fact before I assemble the speakers I am going to try it again, to see how close. Now at least Duelund was better.
The Sonicaps vs vintage foil was the first test I did and my wife said that is the BEST thing you have ever done! (Audio wise) but the problem was she talking about the vintage!
The Jensen's were over $100 (on sale) for a pair and I still like (so far) the vintage better but Jensen is a good replacement and I see why vintage tube guys have used them for so long.
So I am taking out that amp and putting in the EL84 for a comparison from Duelund vs. North Creek inductors. (so that all parts are the same)
I need to know whether to order a second inductor or not? |
Again I have no idea how you can evaluate each component like this in MONO, yes you will get FAR better effect with every cap and inductor in stereo pairs on any speaker. Thats why to me a lot of this was a throw away thread, I am sorry.
Until you can give a real evaluation with BOTH speakers set up correctly, running equal parts to hear the real deal in soundstage etc
Not one speaker running with one supposed better part and just shifting your balance knob on a to the other speaker and saying OH I can hear one is better than the other, we don't have much to go on, because in this case not all things are equal from you are saying.
So yes I suggest if your serious about one part, order its companion and then put it in to the the real test running as it should on both sides of the room and see what comes together.
Its actually kinda strange many have fed the beast on this thread as it stands not reading or realizing you are evaluating a critical soundstage and passive component on one channel at a time
You asked the question so I say YES order it so you can hear the entire balanced soundstage of caps and inductors!
I don't believe any of the Tony Gee or whoevers reviews you refer to were doing this in a mono test on stereo speakers, I am sure they had a Pair
Beyond that believe me when I say even the more "Ruff around the Edges" caps or inductors you are stating don't do justice will actually sound smoother when you hear equal signals on both sides at once opposed to one sided mono killing the whole thing off in the first place.
I would like to hear back from Duelund on the thoughts of evaluating their caps and inductors in mono for speaker pairs?
Good luck |
I made a mistake this process would not even be really "Mono" but half of a signal! Half stereo missing many things on recordings that would be on the other channel. So this makes it even worse to evaluate stereo recordings as you are if I understand the way you are trying to come to these conclusions? |
Acoustics, by the way this plays a HUGE part in what your hearing. First off running one speaker in one corner at time, lets imagine your cranking your stereo and a channel goes out, blows whatever.. What does this sound like? CRAP regardless how good the components used are! Fact is your missing now the Center image in the room, and yes DISTORTION goes up substantially because you hear all the artifacts of the room on that side no longer being integrated and even cancelled by the other side of the room
Also Recordings for example, I can play one that is very GUITAR heavy to the left channel lets say, cut that speaker off and the right losses a bunch of the info in the right. Vocals foget it, Midrange forget that too as you cannot have a warm centered voice and sound stage in the room anymore because your missing a channel. Bass as well now you are OVERLOADING one side and it sounds like Crap.
So again I would like to know how this is an accurate style at all for really evaluating true hi end stereo 2 channel? Also just a note, I believe you are evaluation CORNER horns? This is even worse, they are only echoing out of one corner or the other, No breathing room as they are smack dead in your corners, so yes you basically would have a boom box blasting at you from one side of the room evaluating one Crossover at a time vs. Stereo.
So please you have spent the money, its time to get the Pairs to make your system work correctly and you might find that all this back and forth is not necessary and you will get a great sound already. I understand the stuff is expensive, but you chose to get into this in the first place, so its best to do it right at this point, doing yourself a huge favor getting a true balanced sound all together, and no doubt 2 channels with a "Sonicap" will sound better than ONE with a duelund :-) |
Undertow
Yes you are correct. I just could not afford to do what Jimmy has done. I often reverse the parts and use several amps and reverse tubes etc. So Yes not exact but often there can be such a huge change it is not hard to hear at all.
Speaking of a huge change as much as I have struggled with the Jensen vs. vintage Vishay I am having no such trouble with the inductors.
The Deulund is MUCH smoother. The midrange much better. The North Creek has a starker and harder sound. The North Creek like Irish said may dig deeper? I am not sure yet? I had mentioned a long time ago every time I put in a Duelund part in seems to make all sources sound better. They make your best sound better and your worst. To me this makes them unique. The WPIO inductor is no exception.
This is a lush sounding inductor.
I will be comparing over next few days but if the initial impression is correct (and I think it is) I have ordered my last new non Duelund part as I simply am not interest anymore in anything else. I do want to see how this inductor compares to vintage though. So far better in every way. (from memory) |
The inductor is a very overlooked part in my mind.
SET had posted on his thread that his North Creek is much better than a Solen inductor. For sure I can imagine this. I have never heard a Solen but there is no way to deal with resonance in this inductor. Just loose wire with twist ties.
The North Creek uses very hard wire and bakes to one another to one hard chunk of copper. This goes part way on resonance reduction.
The Duelund WPIO is a fairly hard chunk of all natural material of paper and oil and in which the wires do not touch each other.
What does this mean. The NC resonates and gives a blurry background in comparison. The Deulund sounds darker but more realistic. That high freq resonance that the Clarity White Paper talks about is very real.
The Deulund also sounds more natural in tone. Is that the Silk oil I do not know? I expect so. Nevertheless this is one fine sounding inductor. I can only imagine what a CAT sounds like. I would expect the same as in the caps even less noise. |
Buying a second one now? :) |
Face already ordered.
My gut feel is that the CAST would be even better? Duelund has MUCH less noise than NC and I bet CAST even less. I have to admit I never understood an inductor before.
Still have to compare against vintage. I bet the noise is about the same? Wax paper inductor essential in my mind. One really needs some way to deal with this resonance.
I still have some unused parts. (anyone interested)
1 Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil 2.2uf
1 2.5mh North Creek 10 guage inductor.
Both are in as new condition never been soldered. |
Differences from North Creek to Duelund
The Duelund is darker more romantic sound. The North Creek crisper with more emphasis on middle and upper freq crispness. Drums have more snap on the NC than on the Duelund they are also of lower volume and crispness. On the Norah Jones CD the Duelund presentation will be lush but somewhat darker sounding. Norah is the star on the Duelund lush sounding on the NC the drums start taking the show and Norah voice becomes brittle.
With tone controls the treble is flat with the Duelund with the NC I would cut it back the treble. No contest in which is smoother, Duelund all the way. With the cuts in noise the Duelund will have more perceived bass. (less high freq and high freq noise) This makes the Duelund a easier long term listen. No hardness to sound at all. NC is sensitive to source and these differences are quite large.
I do notice the same things as when VSF or even more so when CAST went in the tweeter the amount/volume of sound goes down and this is noise reduction.
In the inductor the NC is MUCH louder volume wise.
Duelund works very well in this application as my speakers were tilted to much to mid and high. One may want an NC (although I think not) if your speakers were already on the dark side because NC for sure will tilt sound upward and be more crisp at a price though of harshness.
|
So then north creek on the woofers, Duelund on the mids and tweets sounds like the most dynamic presentation. Obviously there are advantages to having "more power output" or efficiency to your large 15" woofer if your using K-horns with the north creek not needing nearly as much power. Thats my take, and then duelunds yes make sense on horns. So if you were using the north creek on the horns than it makes some sense, did you try anything on the woofer? Or are you using the original inductor on the woofer and comparing these 2 inductors on the midrange? |
Have you measured the two different inductor's DCR? How do they compare? Did you level match your mids after swapping the components? |
