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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy

Showing 50 responses by face

face
516 posts
 
The 6.8uf VSF was on the tweeter(Vifa XT19).

All caps are broken in, they're from other speakers with hundreds of hours on them.
face
516 posts
 
Tony Gee updated his page again.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
face
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No, the largest value I could find is 1uf, which is too small for any of my loudspeaker applications, and their smaller values are physically too large to fit in any of my electronics.
face
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Thank you for your participation Fredrick and Joseph.

Fredrick, I'm loving my CAST's more and more each day.
face
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IMO, Sonic Caps sound like Sonic Crap for the first 50 hours or so. After 100 hours they start to open up. I'd say they're 90% broken in after 200 hours. You should consider giving them another chance before moving on.

Regardless if you move on or not, I'd love to hear your impressions.
face
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As mentioned numerous times, you need to let the Sonic Caps break in before making a fair judgment on them. I would agree that they are neutral, but they definitely aren't flat.
face
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Just a heads up, Madisound finally lowered their prices on Claritycap MR's. I made a large purchase today. :)
face
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Been busy with work lately. I want to retest the CAST vs. VSF (tweeter caps in speakers) on amp with all the same caps. Trying to figure out where to go from here but am very happy even right here.
There shouldn't be any comparison, there wasn't here at least.
face
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Last night I replaced the Sonic Cap Gen I's in the high pass with Claritycap MR's.

My first initial impression was, they're tremendous! The .89uf MR is larger than the 17uf Sonic Cap used in my low pass. The 4.7uf MR is just tremendous. If I didn't build a point to point x-over on a piece of MDF, there would be no way I would be able to use these.

First listening impression, right off the bat they seem smoother, less closed in, pianos especially sounds more realistic, and there is slightly better separation. And I don't know if I am imaging things, but there seems to be less floor noise. Now does someone want to give me a loan so I can purchase some for my low pass? :D

I can't wait to get some hours on these!
face
516 posts
 
I've only tried the MR's, Sonic Cap Gen I and II, Dayton, and Solen so far.

I emailed Tony Gee about the MR's a week or two ago. Here was his response:
"Hi Mike,

I am not completly finished testing them yet, but so far I find the Clairy Cap MR to be very spatious, they have a very wide and tall image with lots of detail and at the same time they ar quite neutral and smooth. I will probably place them above the Clarity Cap DTAC.

regards,
Tony"

I'm curious to see his final rating since he rated the DTAC a 10.5, Mundorf S/O 10, S/G 11, S/G/O 11.5.

Mike
face
516 posts
 

08-27-09: Phildsp
Even though the MR's might not have the superior tone and natural dynamics of the Dueland Cast caps, are they possibly in the same league in terms of imaging detail and sound stage size?
In my experience, it's very close. CAST's are a little more transparent though.
face
516 posts
 
In the next week or two I should be comparing Mundorf S/O, Claritycap MR's, and Duelund copper VSF's, I can't wait.
face
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Since I'm still awaiting delivery of my Duelund caps from a friend, I decided to to compare the Mundorf S/O's and Claritycap MR's that I have on hand in the time being.

I found the MR's sounded sharper, more accurate, more dynamic, and had better separation than the S/O's. The S/O's were smoother, but at the expense of everything else mentioned here.
face
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I'm currently using Duelund resistors. They remind me of mox type resistors without the glare. Very clean and transparent unlike Mills.
face
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Tonight a friend and I swapped out Solen, Clarity MR's, Mundorf S/O, and Duelund copper VSF's in a pair of custom speakers I designed and built.

Other than the MR's being slightly quieter and slightly more dynamic, the Duelunds put the rest to shame. The VSF's sounded more natural and had a sound stage twice the size of the rest. For the soundstage alone, I would take the VSF's. But their tonality/timbre really put the icing on the cake.

Now my only problem is...can I resist the CAST?
face
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Would I notice a difference between an aluminum and copper VSF on my mid?
face
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I did some more testing with Claritycap MR's and Duelund VSF's and am truely
stumped. I had an 6.8uf VSF on my tweeter and the soundstage was amazing, then
I ran 3.3uf, 2.7uf, and .82uf MR's in parallel(to achieve 6.8uf) and the
soundstage sucked. For the hell of it, I decided to lower my crossover freq and
threw a 10uf MR on my tweeters and the soundstage opened up just like the VSF. So it
appears using 3 caps to make up the value I needed could have been the issue. Now with the
MR's, it's more dynamic with a blacker background, with slightly better separation, but sometimes cymbals are a little
sharp. In comparison believe the VSF's may have a slight edge in tonality. Which
leads me to this, has anyone tried both the CAST's and MR's? If the CAST's have all of the
MR's characteristics with the tonality of the VSF, then we have a winner, then the only issue left is cost(ouch!)

Best of all though, my speakers measure even flatter with the larger value, I just hope I don't exponentially lower the life span of my tweeters. :D
face
516 posts
 
You guys are killing me...

Can anyone go into detail as to why the CAST's are so much better?

Comparing Clarity MR's to copper VSF's, the VSF's had better tonality/timbre, but the MR's were better in every other way.

I'm using a mix of Clarity MR's and copper VSF's in my Tannoy HPD-385's and am having fantastic results. I'm still tweaking the crossovers in my custom speakers and so far am happier with MR's over VSF's. Since the values needed (10uf, 68uf, 88uf) would be way too big for CAST's, maybe a mix of MR's and CAST as bypasses(10%) may be worth trying.

Mike
face
516 posts
 
Volley,
I have now heard Clarity MR's and copper Duelund VSF's in both my Tannoy's and custom speakers. I still stand by my opinion that imaging and dynamics are better with MR's. But, I could see how someone could still prefer Duelund due to their timbre. Their tonality is slightly better and they are also a little smoother. Not that MR's are harsh at all, but they don't hold anything back or color the music either.

Mike
face
516 posts
 
I have a pair of Mundorf S/O here and IMO they don't hold a candle to MR's in transparency, dynamics, and imaging.
face
516 posts
 
For inductors, check out Alpha Core/Goertz.
face
516 posts
 
In my custom speakers, there's only 1 cap in the HF circuit, so it would have only been the VSF or MR. In my Tannoys's, there's 3 caps in the HF circuit, the first cap everything passes through, then there is a cap in the contour filter, and a cap in a notch filter.

I made a comparison with Solen, Mundorf S/O, Clarity MR, and Duelund VSF in my custom speakers. In the Tannoys, I have run Solen, Sonic Caps, MR's, and VSF's. The VSF's and MR's have always been the clear winners. In fact, I believe both make even Mundorf S/O sound poor(soft, uninspiring).

Currently I'm running a VSF and MR's in the notch/filter circuits of my Tannoy's. It appears they mix well. In my custom speakers, MR's in the HF and bypassing the MP circuits.
face
516 posts
 
I use .5-.75" MDF, zip ties and/or hot glue.

Drill holes though the MDF for the zip ties then use a router on the bottom to cut a .25" line between each set of holes so the board can sit flat. Or if you are mounting the crossovers externally, you can built a box out of red oak or another nice wood.

As for chassis wire, what are you using for speaker wire?

I normally use Neotech solid core, but may try Duelund next time. When using solid core, remember to twist or braid them.
face
516 posts
 
I would not bother if it's in parallel with your tweeter.

The biggest gains are to be had in series with your mid and woofer.
face
516 posts
 
Big blue arrived today: http://face.cleanandquiet.com/store/Cap%20Comparison.jpg

As for inductors, have you measured the DCR of your current inductors? You do realize, that by making drastic changes to DCR, you'll offset the balance of the speaker and will have to change other components.
face
516 posts
 
You probably threw your speaker's balance off and the mids are now beaming.
face
516 posts
 
I haven't tried the aluminium VSF's, but from what I've heard from others is that they are less refined and a little flatter in presentation.
face
516 posts
 
Further impressions of Duelund VSF vs. Clarity MR.

I recently replaced the capacitor in series with my mid with a pair of large Claritycap MR's. After getting some hours on them, it appears they're not a good match for metal(magnesium) drivers. What started out as a subtle difference in transparency because harshness. Nothing terrible, but I prefer a smoother or warm sound. I then replaced them with an aluminum Duelund VSF. Out of the box, the VSF sounded dark in comparison. Now that I have about 10-15 hours on them, they're starting to open up and sound very smooth.

Now I'm really on the fence in as what to do with my HF circuit. I'm very pleased with the sound of MR's, the imaging and soundstage are to die for, and they're very dynamic and quiet. But Duelund still wins for tonality. Since I have a few small value MR's laying around, I'm not sure if I want to parallel a MR and either a VSF or CAST and hope for the best of both worlds, or try all CAST. Either way, it's an expensive experiment.
face
516 posts
 
Ok, I placed an order for a pair of CAST's. This wait is going to feel like forever.
face
516 posts
 
I recently received a pair of 60uf VSF's and they had an interesting odor upon arrival. :D It went away in a few days though.
face
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Yes, they were special order, they are being used in series with my mids. Out of the box it wasn't a significant difference over the Dayton film caps they replaced, but after 10 hours or so the differences became more apparent. I have about 40 hours on them now, in another 10 or so, I'm going to put the Daytons back in for comparison's sake. But I would say the biggest improvement so far is the difference in tonality. They sound more life like, more open, and a little smoother.
face
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MOX have a sheen and slight coloration compared to Duelund, but still less coloration than Mills IMO. For the HF circuit, I would use Duelund.
face
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Where do you have an autoformer, in the HF circuit? Is there any schematics/plans out there to replace it with other parts instead? I wouldn't imagine an one-off autoformer being cheap at all.

My Tannoy's originally came with an autoformer, but I eventually replaced it with a resistor and inductor...and now it even measures flatter.
face
516 posts
 
CAST are the real deal, more to come later. ;)
face
516 posts
 
Here's my quick impression.

The CAST are the best caps I've heard so far. But are they worth the price, probably not for everyone.

Over the MR, they offer a little more transparency and better tonality. Imaging, soundstage, dynamics, are similar with both caps. Must be something to do with their anti-resonance designs.

I've experimented with MR, VSF, and CAST in three different speakers. My Tannoy Saturns have perfect synergy with MR's in the HF circuit, I have no desire to try anything else in them. My Tannoy HPD-385A's use three caps in the HF circuit, replacing all three of them with MR's gave a little sheen, I replaced one of the caps(the only in series) with a VSF and found synergy. Since these are in a secondary rig, I couldn't imagine fronting for a CAST in that position. Now for my dedicated two channel rig, I use custom speakers consisting of Seas Magnesium drivers and a Scan Speak Air Circ tweeter. I've tried a few different caps in them, including Mundorf S/O, VSF's, and MR's. MR's worked the best overall in them, but I still preferred Duelund's tonality in that rig. I then ordered a pair of CAST's for those speakers. While waiting for them, I ordered a pair of small VSF's to parallel with a pair of MR's. Paralleling the two gave me most of what I'm looking for, but still wasn't perfect. I like to use a single cap in the HF circuit whenever possible. I found that paralleling or "bypassing" caps in the HF circuit usually leads to some signal degradation, I haven't noticed this in MP or LP circuits though. Finally the CASTs arrived(ahead of time too!). As I mentioned before, they have the same large soundstage, and precise imaging as the MR's, but with a more natural tonality and little more detail without harshness. If I had unlimited funds would I buy these for all of my speakers in every position...no, because I still do prefer MR's in some speakers. I still wouldn't mind having another pair or two though.
face
516 posts
 
Joe, which model Tannoy's are you referring to that only uses a 1.5uf in series with the HF unit? Most of the vintage drivers use anywhere from a 4uf to 6.8uf in series, with 1-2 parallel caps in the HF circuit. Some of their newer models with the Tulip waveguide only use a 2.4uf-2.7uf in series(1st order), but I'm not familiar with all the recent models.

Thanks,
Mike
face
516 posts
 
VSF = lifelike tonality
CAST = lifelike tonality + huge soundstage and precise imaging

The difference was MUCH more subtle than expected.
face
516 posts
 
For large values in the the LF circuit, you can probably get by using a smaller value MR to bypass a cheaper film cap.

I found a very noticeable difference using MR's in the shunt position(parallel notch) of my Tannoy's HF circuit. I've also used them in the shunt position of my custom speaker's midrange and woofer. There I found the difference in the LF subtle in comparison though.

IMO, they're the next best thing to the Duelund CAST.
face
516 posts
 
I also feel that when possible, a single cap is the best solution. I feel that paralleling multiple caps, especially on the HF circuit, can lead to some smearing. But, I would still take two high quality caps paralleled over a cheap or mediocre cap.
face
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I would cost me over $5700 to replace all my series inductors with CAST, and another $3500+ to upgrade my parallel inductors... When I win lotto. :)
face
516 posts
 
Fredrick, does it use the same leads as your other resistors?
face
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They're very transparent and don't have a sonic signature like Mills or MOX do. Be sure to give them a few hours or so to break in though.
face
516 posts
 
Buying a second one now? :)
face
516 posts
 
Have you measured the two different inductor's DCR? How do they compare? Did you level match your mids after swapping the components?
face
516 posts
 
As long as the laminate core is used below a certain frequency, the distortion may not be audible.

As for why they may sound different, different purities, dielectrics, etc...
face
516 posts
 
Ait,
IIRC, Jensen copper foil paper tube style caps are only available to 1uf, so you'll have to pick up either an aluminum, copper or silver VSF for your midrange. I went with an 6.8uf CAST on my tweeter and a 60uf aluminum VSF on the mid and have no regrets other than I wish I could afford an 110uf VSF for my woofer. :)
Mike
face
516 posts
 
So what is the status on Duelund's new CAST resistors? When will they be available for sale?

Thanks!
face
516 posts
 
I'm sure that's proprietary knowledge.

But I agree, I was also shocked at the difference between the two.
face
516 posts
 
Expectation may be copper to the woofer and Silver elsewhere?
Sounds like a plan!
face
516 posts
 
Tony's reviews and rankings are based on his experience with those capacitors used in loudspeaker crossovers, not electronics.

How a capacitor sounds in a loudspeaker does not directly correlate with how it will sound in electronics.
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